General & Others Oden was a shit leader and deserved to die

[ShadyOjiro]

I guess this fits well with oden situation

Did oden make a mistake? Yes...if he wouldn't then there won't be any need of present plot of shs allying with samurais to take wano back which ultimately ties with void century and present story of one piece.


Did this mistake shit on oden character? Nope... From his perspective no...he is shouldering all the responsibility of his actions alone like a leader should.

Leader acknowledge when they can't do things alone.

Oden rejected the help of others...and when he asked it was too late the enemy was too much.

As far as we know Oden wanted to live to open the Wano borders as main point...


I don't say he should not be liked just that people should not turn blind eye.

...some here look like the followers of politicians after they do one good act.

 

[Garp the Fist]

(didn’t Den Den Mushi originate in Wano??)

No. Kine'mon didn't have a clue what they were. They've seemingly been introduced to the place in the twenty years since, but only small ones with a short range, that need a giant one to work on Wano alone, let alone across the seas

 

[Jew D. Boy]

No. Kine'mon didn't have a clue what they were. They've seemingly been introduced to the place in the twenty years since, but only small ones with a short range, that need a giant one to work on Wano alone, let alone across the seas

Fair enough, but my other point still stands - Oden could have been practical (like a good leader typically is) and picked something up during his years exploring the world just in case he needed to get in touch with his allies once he went home.

 

[JerAx]

Luffy put it brilliantly to Vivi during Alabasta in this one page.

Spoiler

.

this come absolutely out of nowhere at that time actually. This is volume 20, and that early of the story luffy haven't really shows any compelling characterization like this.

I wonder what made luffy think like this

 

[dirtyLarry]

Characters in OP are dumb. That's nothing new.

But this is something far, far worse than anything that's been seen before. Zoro made a deal with MARINES, who at that point we didn't even know were a bad organisation. And even then, it wasn't that stupid to believe the deal would be honoured. Zoro was the only one affected by his deal.

This does not begin to compare to Oden as his decisions affected the entirety of Wano. Wano decayed, its people suffered, all because of Oden's inaction. Oden didn't take on all the suffering on his own, his people were suffering just as much under Orochi's rule, and still continue to suffer for 20 years after all because of idiotic decisions Oden made.

Do you see the difference? Zoro put himself on the line and only himself. Oden dragged the entirety of Wano down with his awful decisions, allowing a man who had openly stated he was planning to destroy the country, rule for 5 years, without having a single back up plan.

Let's not even bring up Sanji. He's also a terrible character.

All of Wano's issues are a result of Oden allowing Orochi to rise to power, and then Oden refusing to do anything about the situation. All those deaths, all that hardship, all the suffering and damage to Wano. That's all on Oden, almost as much as it is on Orochi and Kaido. He totally deserved his fate.

The SHs have done this several times. Let's take Zoro's deal with Kuma for example.
He literally trusted a warlord, who just attacked all of them. If Kuma only had Orochi's personality, Zoro would've basically killed off the crew right there, too.
Even Robin and Nami pulled that kind of stuff, when they still had a choice.

Those characters don't look at the story with the eyes of the reader.
Seeing the story through Oden's eyes, you can easily understand why he did what he did. Nobody needs to like his decisions (and I bet Oda doesn't want us to love his decisions either), but it's not like he was completely unreasonable or anything like it.

And to be quite frank with you: The outrage, especially from the younger fans, comes because they never had to make hard decisions in life themself. Not a knock on them at all, but you can't cmprehend the situation if you haven't experienced something like it yourself or at least have to make tough decisions (in a job with a lot of responsibilities etc.) on a daily basis.

 

[Uncle Van]

Oden was complacent in letting Kaido and Orochi rule for another 5 years without planning for anything. He actually trusted the guy who poisoned Wano, attacking his wife and outwardly declare that he wanted to destory the country. But for 5 years Oden thought that Orochi or Kaido would keep their word since once again, Oden didnt make any kind of preparation except the usual "we'll kill him if he breaks it."

Also, no way Oden would have gotten outside help
Wano is isolated and he still cant build boats for shit.

 

[Garp the Fist]

Somehow, the minks left the island. Likewise shortly after Oden’s demise, the time travelers hijacked a ship and left Wano to a middling degree of success. So it’s difficult but not impossible.

Until we know how that happened I wouldn't be using it for an argument.

Also, keep in mind it's different circumstances. We know Oden was keeping an eye on Orochi and co in those five years. Do you not find it likely that Orochi and Kaido were also keeping an eye on Oden? They're the one with the hostages, remember, and in charge of the island and its ports. Oden doesn't show up for his weekly dance- kill the hostages. A ship leaves Wano without their permission- kill the hostages.

Fair enough, but my other point still stands - Oden could have been practical (like a good leader typically is) and picked something up during his years exploring the world just in case he needed to get in touch with his allies once he went home.

D: Of the One Piece world's mail delivery staff, can the Carrier Bats deliver packages too? Do pirate crews exchange mid and end of year gifts with each other? -P.N. Boneless Ham

O: I don't want to see pirates getting along like that. It doesn't happen. Carrier Bats are mainly used as a means of contact by the World Government. For private letters, one can negotiate with a News Coo to deliver it. There's also a private company called "Small Bird Delivery," but they have a small space and short distance. "Albatross Delivery" does long distance, but there's a lot of things they won't deliver. Mail services outside of the government's just aren't that developed. For deliveries between pirates, it's common to use boats. They don't have addresses either, so parting ways with people is heavier than we can imagine.

No, he couldn't have. Even assuming these companies were around twenty years ago, they wouldn't be in Wano.

 

[dizzy2341]

The SHs have done this several times. Let's take Zoro's deal with Kuma for example.
He literally trusted a warlord, who just attacked all of them. If Kuma only had Orochi's personality, Zoro would've basically killed off the crew right there, too.
Even Robin and Nami pulled that kind of stuff, when they still had a choice.

Could Zoro in that condition have beaten Kuma? That's all you need to ask yourself. Was there even a tiny chance he could've beaten Kuma? He tried to fight, but was there even a slither of hope that he would've won? Or was he acting out of sheer desperation in a totally hopeless situation?

Now think about why you are comparing this completely different situation to the Oden situation in which Oden was one of the strongest alive, had great clout in the country full of very strong samurai willing to backup, the support of the citizens, and the support of the two strongest pirate crews in their entire world.

Do you see the issue here?

This is a post that was shared on discord. I don't know the original poster but credits to them:

* There's no doubt: Oda has lost his touch Compare this bowel movement to Nami's backstory: Arlong was a piece of shit because he oppressed people that were far too weak to fight back, Bellemere was badass because, even though she was weak, she stood for her daughters and died a hero's death. The Marines could easily have stopped Arlong but they were far too corrupt. You could feel how isolated and helpless the people from Nami's village were. Oda didn't need a 4 months long flashback to convey these emotions. You didn't need to see Nami dancing for 5 years, just by seeing all the blood stains on Nami's room Luffy (and the audience) could understand her pain.

But Oden's flashback? The evilness of both Kaido and Orochi is diminished by the fact that they're oppressing people that could actually fight back, but are just too dumb to do so. Orochi is actually kind of brave, because his plan to become the shogun was very risky and likewise, Kaido is ballsy for taking over a country full of people that, according to what we're told, are very strong. Oda just wants to hype up the samurai so badly that you never really feel like they're helpless, they're incompetent. It's hard to feel bad for Oden because he's selfish, easily tricked and can't even plan a proper raid, even though he had 5 years to prepare (not he could've received help from his incredibly strong friends, like the Roger Pirates or Whitebeard, a luxury Nami didn't have ofc). They had all the resources, but apparently, no one in Wano can think rationally. The real tragedy of Wano is that, if you're not a Kurozumi, you're a fucking imbecile.*

Seeing the story through Oden's eyes, you can easily understand why he did what he did. Nobody needs to like his decisions (and I bet Oda doesn't want us to love his decisions either), but it's not like he was completely unreasonable or anything like it.

The decisions were utterly retarded. That should be plain as day to see. And actually Oda is glorifying his actions. Oden is treated like a hero who saved Wano, when he was actually the fool that doomed it.

And to be quite frank with you: The outrage, especially from the younger fans, comes because they never had to make hard decisions in life themself. Not a knock on them at all, but you can't cmprehend the situation if you haven't experienced something like it yourself or at least have to make tough decisions (in a job with a lot of responsibilities etc.) on a daily basis.

 

[fatbotcat]

Oda is making Oden the most honourable spirit of Wano, nothing less, and he made his point quite well, lack of "super brain" back-stabbing weasel scheming (would be such a lame story by the way - probably almost same result!) notwithstanding. And I bet his sword had a stronger strike than Mihawk, while them being close in skill. Also, he is of course quite similar to Luffy in his stubbordnness and "nakama"-spirit, for example...
Maybe he is a bit dumb from some point of view, however most probably take a cheap (and "toxic") stance to come to that conclusion and are in any case way overblowing any issues with him, when he kind of carried the country on his back for as long as possible, and did the much wished-for attack (after his first solo-rush was stalled).

Oden can't be Orochi or Kaido. He must stand for another Wano and warrior-spirit.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Until we know how that happened I wouldn't be using it for an argument.

Also, keep in mind it's different circumstances. We know Oden was keeping an eye on Orochi and co in those five years. Do you not find it likely that Orochi and Kaido were also keeping an eye on Oden? They're the one with the hostages, remember, and in charge of the island and its ports. Oden doesn't show up for his weekly dance- kill the hostages. A ship leaves Wano without their permission- kill the hostages.

It’s unlikely to be anything beyond the simple story we got. At most, Raizo’s Shinobi skills helped hide them. If that shoddy team could make a hasty escape in a Wano further fortified by Kaido’s crew, to the point where they have turrets of men on the outskirts of their territory, it’s entirely an option during those five years.

 

[Garp the Fist]

It’s unlikely to be anything beyond the simple story we got. At most, Raizo’s Shinobi skills helped hide them. If that shoddy team could make a hasty escape in a Wano further fortified by Kaido’s crew, to the point where they have turrets of men on the outskirts of their territory, it’s entirely an option during those five years.

They've escaped twenty years later, after a magic time jump. I feel quite safe in saying that's totally different to the supervision Oden must have been under. Apart from Orochi, it seems everyone believed the Scabbards were dead anyway. So I doubt the supervision they were under was anything like what Oden must have been.

 

[Bogard]

It’s unlikely to be anything beyond the simple story we got. At most, Raizo’s Shinobi skills helped hide them. If that shoddy team could make a hasty escape in a Wano further fortified by Kaido’s crew, to the point where they have turrets of men on the outskirts of their territory, it’s entirely an option during those five years.

And this is what happened when they tried

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

They've escaped twenty years later, after a magic time jump. I feel quite safe in saying that's totally different to the supervision Oden must have been under. Apart from Orochi, it seems everyone believed the Scabbards were dead anyway. So I doubt the supervision they were under was anything like what Oden must have been.

Do you recall how quickly they detected Luffy and Thousand Sunny when they arrived? I find it hard to believe that a crew/Shogun that puts so much effort into guarding their borders and not letting people in/out is easier to slip away from then someone’s whose grasp on the country isn’t absolute. There’s still no sign of SMILE users or fortified borders as of yet, either.

And this is what happened when they tried

yes—it worked out for them? Is that your point? Besides, a planned leave is far different than a hastily made exit from the country.

 

[ShadyOjiro]

And this is what happened when they tried

Just saying Inu and Neko would have sailed with ease.

 

[Bogard]

yes—it worked out for them? Is that your point? Besides, a planned leave is far different than a hastily made exit from the country.

How did it work out when their ship got recked due to lacking sailing skill? How would they manage to contact allies that way?

And considering Kaido's men could track even unknown leaving out Wano

Much less would it be for Oden, who Kaido already had knowledge in and was perceived as a threat

 

[dirtyLarry]

Could Zoro in that condition have beaten Kuma? That's all you need to ask yourself. Was there even a tiny chance he could've beaten Kuma? He tried to fight, but was there even a slither of hope that he would've won? Or was he acting out of sheer desperation in a totally hopeless situation?

Of course there was a slither of hope. Zoro saw that Kuma wasn't untouchable, when he had sliced him earlier. On top of that Sanji was getting back up, too, yet Zoro knocked him out again and took the deal.
Not good chances by any means, but not utterly hopeless.

It was in fact very much comparable to a already battle-worn Oden being in a 4-vs-1 match (Kaido, Orochi, barrier-man, clone-witch) and hundreds of hostages about to get killed in front of him.

As for your discord - or whatever link - well, everyone has the right to voice an opinion.
In my opinion the vast majority of "critics" simply don't bother trying to understand Oda's reasons for writing Oden the way it is. Not to mention the countless symbolic images and nods to other characters' choices being used in this flashback. I think a lot of them have voiced their displeasure about Oden a few chapters ago (when he danced) and since wouldn't go back under any circumstance in order to save face and avoid cognitive dissonance. Classic psychology and prominent nearly every arc.

Looking at the whole debate with a calm mind, we see that it's basically always the same ten or so guys complaining all the time anyway. Vast majority likes the flashback, as can be seen in the chapter ratings or on social media.

This right now is not a situation like during the second half of WCI, where we really had also some massive rating shifts on OJ for example (where for some chapters 40-50% or so voted for below-average to awful). I fully got the outrage there. Here I really don't see the problem at all.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

How did it work out when their ship got recked due to lacking sailing skill? How would they manage to contact allies that way?

And considering Kaido's men could track even unknown leaving out Wano

Much less would it be for Oden, who Kaido already had knowledge in and was perceived as a threat

Yes, I’m very impressed they managed to get to practically the Red Line by themselves. Imagine if they landed in a friendly nation like Dressrosa, or anywhere else? And imagine if they had time to plan this expedition, instead of just running for it, and if Wano wasn’t supporting Orochi/fortified by the Beasts so much?

Would be a whole lot easier, I bet.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

I just don’t like how Oden doesn’t consider contacting any of his allies outside of Wano for help or making a back up plan. That’s the offending issue. Oden has enough reason to suspect that Orochi won’t play fairly—the man attacked his family whilst Oden was galavanting around with pirates and seriously injured his wife—but he still expects Orochi to have any sense of fair play?

Orochi has shown to be absolutely putrid, allowing hundreds to suffer for no other reason than generational grudges. His animosity for the country palpable. But Oden still doesn’t have a plan in motion to thwart Orochi or suspect fowl play. That’s the part where it feels like someone replaced Oden’s brain with a child’s. I’d be fine if Oden tried something or had some contingency plan in place for betrayal and that failed. But it makes Oden really look like a fool here, despite Oda clearly wanting us to see Oden as this tragically heroic figure.

It just doesn’t mesh well.

I can agree to the idea of not having back up plan. Like dancing in public, but secretly working on something with his retainers, maybe to free the hostages...etc!

But for the whole "contacting allies outside of Wano". It was stated before that he failed at sailing for around 30+ times. And when he joined WB, and WB asked him to be the captain of his own ship, he said he doesn't know how to sail.

And the people of Wano in general, have no experience in sailing considering it's a close country. Oden cannot leave the country cause the enemy will suspect something about his absence!

So, what I'm saying is.. regarding asking the help from outside, it's really justifiable.

However, I can agree with the first point.

 

[Jew D. Boy]

Even if we accept that they couldn’t communicate with outside allies, that makes it all the more inexplicable that Oden not only chose to leave when he visited with the Roger Pirates, but that he didn’t even think to ask them to help free his homeland before moving on. One Piece wasn’t going anywhere and the captain’s sickness wasn’t so rapidly developing that Roger and his crew could have taken a couple extra days to help the only man suited to read the Poneglyphs that were guiding them in the first place. A truly good leader would have seen his country in disrepair and tried to head it off at the pass before things got irrevocably worse.

 

[dirtyLarry]

Even if we accept that they couldn’t communicate with outside allies, that makes it all the more inexplicable that Oden not only chose to leave when he visited with the Roger Pirates, but that he didn’t even think to ask them to help free his homeland before moving on. One Piece wasn’t going anywhere, Roger and his crew could have taken a couple extra days to help the only man suited to read the Poneglyphs that were guiding them in the first place. A truly good leader would have seen his country in disrepair and tried to head it off at the pass before things got irrevocably worse.

That's not who Oden is. Basically any leader in this series would've acted like that, when he returned to his homeland.

He wanted to solve the matter alone, since he

A) Had no idea anyone even close to his gigantic power was present in Wano (Kaido).
B) Felt responsible for whatever happened.
C) Never accepted help in private matters (his downfall and his one major difference compared to Luffy). Especially not outsider help, who in his eyes have nothing to do with Wano's problems.