Character Discussion Vol. 102 SBS proves that Zoro will be recognized as the official Vice Captain/First Mate/副船長 (Fuku Senchō) of the Strawhats at some point before EOS
- Thread starter ConquistadoR
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- Tags first mate roronoa zoro silvers rayleigh vice captain
Why should Luffy be the Captain? Why is he a carbon copy of Roger? Why is Zoro called "En-Ou" exactly like how Rayleigh is called "Mei-Ou"? Why did Oda write so many parallels between them?
Ask yourself, at this point with all the parallels between Zoro and the Vice Captain of Roger Pirates, who do you think is the most appropriate choice for the Vice Captain of SHP - Zoro or Nami?
Ask yourself, at this point with all the parallels between Zoro and the Vice Captain of Roger Pirates, who do you think is the most appropriate choice for the Vice Captain of SHP - Zoro or Nami?
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Wanna know when Zoro is gonna become an official Vice Captain?
When people cry enough on the internet to annoy the current editor at the time so they can go to Oda and say:
"Yo, Oda, can you just make Zoro the VC and be done with it? It's getting fucking annoying out there."
I don't understand this "NEED" to break the SH's dynamic that differs from ordinary hierarchy, just to push some title in order to wank a character more (and use it against other fandoms. I know it. you know it. everyone knows it).
There's no one serious denying that Zoro is the 2nd strongest of the crew. There's no one serious denying his "mirror" version of Rayleigh. But trying to nitpick some panels to try and push that Zoro is more deserving than other crew members of being the Vice Captain is just pointless.
Jinbei is a a veteran former captain with tons of experience that helped Luffy during one of his lowest points after Ace died.
Sanji was introduced as the Sous-Chef of a former pirate captain in Baratie. The 2nd in command.
Nami has moments when she's the one that bosses Zoro and Sanji around.
Usopp's dynamic with Luffy fits PERFECTLY for Usopp being the Vice Captain of the SH's because they are the ones that better reflect the dynamic of the SH's of being MAINLY a family, than a typical pirate crew. Zoro's speech in Water7 is cute, but it falls short due to how Oda treats the SH's for the rest of the story.
Zoro's "thing" of being the Vice Captain is that he's very pragmatic. If we were talking about an ordinary hierarchy, I would put Zoro's pragmatism as a core characteristic for a Vice Captain. But, then again, the SH's are NOT an ordinary group.
For how I perceive the SH's and their dynamics, Usopp is the most fitting to be Luffy's Vice Captain. An extremely fitting milestone for the one who wants to become a brave warrior of the sea.
But sure. Go for the boring bread and butter shounen route of making Rayleigh 2.0 the Vice Captain. After all, that's Zoro's thing post-TS right? Copying others' achievements or titles.
When people cry enough on the internet to annoy the current editor at the time so they can go to Oda and say:
"Yo, Oda, can you just make Zoro the VC and be done with it? It's getting fucking annoying out there."
I don't understand this "NEED" to break the SH's dynamic that differs from ordinary hierarchy, just to push some title in order to wank a character more (and use it against other fandoms. I know it. you know it. everyone knows it).
There's no one serious denying that Zoro is the 2nd strongest of the crew. There's no one serious denying his "mirror" version of Rayleigh. But trying to nitpick some panels to try and push that Zoro is more deserving than other crew members of being the Vice Captain is just pointless.
Jinbei is a a veteran former captain with tons of experience that helped Luffy during one of his lowest points after Ace died.
Sanji was introduced as the Sous-Chef of a former pirate captain in Baratie. The 2nd in command.
Nami has moments when she's the one that bosses Zoro and Sanji around.
Usopp's dynamic with Luffy fits PERFECTLY for Usopp being the Vice Captain of the SH's because they are the ones that better reflect the dynamic of the SH's of being MAINLY a family, than a typical pirate crew. Zoro's speech in Water7 is cute, but it falls short due to how Oda treats the SH's for the rest of the story.
Zoro's "thing" of being the Vice Captain is that he's very pragmatic. If we were talking about an ordinary hierarchy, I would put Zoro's pragmatism as a core characteristic for a Vice Captain. But, then again, the SH's are NOT an ordinary group.
For how I perceive the SH's and their dynamics, Usopp is the most fitting to be Luffy's Vice Captain. An extremely fitting milestone for the one who wants to become a brave warrior of the sea.
But sure. Go for the boring bread and butter shounen route of making Rayleigh 2.0 the Vice Captain. After all, that's Zoro's thing post-TS right? Copying others' achievements or titles.
S
Such an effort is admirable, but... I don't care who's at the top of the team, I never cared about the Straw Hats' team in the first place '-', I only care about who's at the top of the world sitting in supreme chair number one, which is obvious kaido.
Zoro is a conqueror so it's hard to keep this monster under control, unlike admirals who don't have the conqueror's haki.
Zoro is a conqueror so it's hard to keep this monster under control, unlike admirals who don't have the conqueror's haki.
So the recent reveal in the SBS section of Volume 102 that Zoro is not yet the First Mate/Vice Captain of the crew has the fandom in splits, with some arguing that the Strawhats will never have a First Mate/Vice Captain role since that indirectly implies that he has authority over Sanji, the other Wing of the Pirate King, and with some even arguing that the role is for Usopp as seen in Oda's early drafts.
This thread is to provide some context behind the terms that are being thrown around (Right Hand Man, Vice Captain, First Mate) and to demonstrate using the manga that Zoro will indeed be recognized as the First Mate of the Strawhat Pirates.
Context and clearing the mess with the translations:
副船長 = Fuku Senchō = Vice Captain. However the official translation choses to refer to this term as "First Mate" as shown in the case of Silvers Rayleigh, even though it's a term primarily used to refer to the Vice Captain.
Very clearly, Oda thinks that the First Mate/Vice Captain and Right Hand Man are two different terms. This was proven beyond doubt when Oda introduced Rayleigh as "海賊王の右腕" (Kaizoku-Ō no Migiude / Right Hand Man of the Pirate King) and then once again refers to him as the "副船長" (Fuku Senchō / Vice Captain/First Mate) of the Roger Pirates.
Hence, Vice Captain/First Mate/副船長 (fuku senchō), Right Hand Man and the Second Strongest are three different titles and who has them depends completely on the crew and it's dynamics.
- In some crews, the same person shares all the three titles (Rayleigh in the Roger Pirates/Beckmann in the Red Hair Pirates).
- In some crews, there exists RHMs who are the second strongest but they aren't recognized as the official First Mate/Vice Captain even though they carry out those duties (Marco in the WBP/King in the Beast Pirates).
- In some crews, the second strongest aren't even given the title of RHMs, let alone recognized as the First Mate/Vice Captain (Katakuri in the BMP).
Now let's discuss Silvers Rayleigh's case.
Silvers Rayleigh, the "Fuku-Senchō" of the Roger Pirates:
Oda clearly establishes that Rayleigh is the First Mate of the Roger Pirates during his introduction itself.
The Strawhats share multiple parallels with the Roger Pirates - with Luffy paralleling Roger, Zoro paralleling Rayleigh, Sanji paralelling Gaban quite heavily.
Some of the parallels between Rayleigh and Zoro are:
1) They are both heavy drinkers.
2) They both possess scars on their eyes.
3) They both possess Haoshoku Haki and are blessed by the heavens.
4) Their titles/epithets reflect their drive to stand above others, with Rayleigh being referred to as "冥王" (Mei-Ou / the Dark King) and Zoro being referred to as "閻王" (En-Ou / the King of Hell) with both the titles only differing in a single Kanji.
5) They are both swordsmen.
6) They are/will become legends of their own right; with Monkey D. Garp referring to Rayleigh as a "legend" while putting him on the same pedestal as Yonkou Whitebeard and Zoro promising to become so strong as the future World's Strongest Swordsman that his name would reach the heavens.
And as @comrade highlighted in his thread about Zoro already shouldering much of the responsibilities that comes with being a Vice Captain in his thread, it is all but guaranteed that Zoro will be recognized as the "副船長" (Fuku Senchō / Vice Captain/First Mate) of the Strawhat Pirates sometime before the series ends, just like how his parallel Rayleigh was recognized. Infact, the new SBS coming out and reiterating that Zoro is not yet recognized as the First Mate of the Strawhats only reinforces that the title is a big deal in Oda's mind and it would be a future character moment for Zoro when he is finally recognized.
And this moment from Bartolomeo in chapter 723 can be considered as solid forshadowing for the same as well. Notice the use of the exact same verbage as in the case with Rayleigh.
We have seen many crews in the series share the "Wings of their Captain" concept when it comes to their #2s and #3s , some examples being the King-Queen pair in the Beast Pirates, Marco-Jozu pair in the Whitebeard Pirates, possibly Shiryu-Laffitte pair in the Blackbeard Pirates and most importantly, the Rayleigh-Gaban pair in the Roger Pirates.
However, Oda still chose to classify Silvers Rayleigh as the First Mate or Vice Captain of the Roger Pirates, without any discrepancies. Given how Zoro and Sanji parallel this duo, I doubt that this would be a valid reason to not classify Roronoa Zoro as the First Mate or Vice Captain of the Strawhat Pirates.
I rest my case. Do post your thoughts and arguments.
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@ConquistadoR
We all know that the strongest Strawhat bar Luffy is Zoro. Not only it was clear, but Oda just stated this. No equals, no peers, no Wings, no shit... just an undesputable number two, which is Zoro, with no one close enough to make this ambiguous or desputable. Not anymore, sorry.
Zoro, coincidentally, is also Luffy's Right Hand Man and the only Strawhat whose strength compares to Luffy's, who has similar traits, powers and goals to Luffy; they as a duo of Captain/Number Twos are consistently paralleled with other duos of Captains/Number Twos, and Zoro alone by himself is paralleled to these guys by themselves.
Source? Just look below.
The amount of material proving this is gargantuan. And this proves that Zoro is Luffy's Right Hand Man and the Strawhats Crew's Number Two and First Mate. He also acts as an unofficial Vice Captain.
It's logical that if there is an official Vice Captain, that is and will be him.
Or we would be supposed to think that Oda put all this just for the lulz. Which I don't think is logical lol.
Ussop was suppose to be the Vice captain yet he wasn't the first one to join in the early drawings it was Nami....
nuanced is the meaning the word Fuku-sencho has.
and unlike RPs the top 3 are ranked in a hierarchy of elements.. Gold silver and copper that shows definitive superiority to Scabban Rayleigh has in the crew... while oda has literally dedicated "Wings of the PK" to both zoro and sanji regardless of their strenght... their hierarchy seems equated
preface : I'll mentione the point of whatever I'm saying down below.
and @comrade keeps bringing up how people go seeing zoro OMG HOW HE NOT DA CAPTAIN... ofc in sanji's absence that he fails to point out and which was a very evident trend..
even in thriller bark the moment he points Sanji and zoro were the first ones to not back off the fight and wait for Luffy to come back.. tho the rest of the crew needed and explanation why.. but sanji didn't coz the guy knew what he has to do.. while the rest of the seniors like Robin and franky did and Zoro has to reemphasize it a chapter later and elaborate more on it
Chapter 473 : Sanji and Zoro don't want to back down knowing Luffy's shticks
Chapter 474:
Zoro has to reemphasize to to Ussop and elaborate it..everyone realizes his point and Chopper also realizes as demonstrated in the circled aspect while others speak their mind..
Sanji is the only one with who has nothing to say... WHY?.. when he has openly admitted to things in favor of Zoro before in water 7 .. its coz he understands Luffy equally as much so there is no "subordination" no need for sanji to hear zoro out to know what's the point of fighting than waiting.. sanji has even disrupted zoro's duel in thriller is how less he cares about zoro's selfishness when it came to that duel.
Almost everything comrade said in his thread implicitly proves that sanji's existence as a monolith in the crew is whats keeping oda from definitively calling zoro the authentic 'Fuku-sencho'
which is exactly why i believe Oda introduced the title "Wings of the Pirate King"... he won't name Zoro officially the VC of the crew he might have Marines assume such.. but with the existence of sanji in the crew.. if that were ever to happen it'd need alot more than logic to keep Sanji's tantrums muted..
Oda introducing someone who's not ready to become a subordinate to zoro AND HAS ASSERTED HIS PRESENCE AS THE MIND AND BRAWN OF THE CREW... and then entitling zoro officially the VC in the crew (not through Marines) would be a spit to the face in zoro and sanji's chemistry in the crew and that whole decades worth of development
the whole point is 2 equally reliable folks.. there can't be 1 VC......
PERIOD
Take a look at ussop's title
and unlike RPs the top 3 are ranked in a hierarchy of elements.. Gold silver and copper that shows definitive superiority to Scabban Rayleigh has in the crew... while oda has literally dedicated "Wings of the PK" to both zoro and sanji regardless of their strenght... their hierarchy seems equated
preface : I'll mentione the point of whatever I'm saying down below.
and @comrade keeps bringing up how people go seeing zoro OMG HOW HE NOT DA CAPTAIN... ofc in sanji's absence that he fails to point out and which was a very evident trend..
even in thriller bark the moment he points Sanji and zoro were the first ones to not back off the fight and wait for Luffy to come back.. tho the rest of the crew needed and explanation why.. but sanji didn't coz the guy knew what he has to do.. while the rest of the seniors like Robin and franky did and Zoro has to reemphasize it a chapter later and elaborate more on it
Chapter 473 : Sanji and Zoro don't want to back down knowing Luffy's shticks
Chapter 474:
Zoro has to reemphasize to to Ussop and elaborate it..everyone realizes his point and Chopper also realizes as demonstrated in the circled aspect while others speak their mind..
Sanji is the only one with who has nothing to say... WHY?.. when he has openly admitted to things in favor of Zoro before in water 7 .. its coz he understands Luffy equally as much so there is no "subordination" no need for sanji to hear zoro out to know what's the point of fighting than waiting.. sanji has even disrupted zoro's duel in thriller is how less he cares about zoro's selfishness when it came to that duel.
Almost everything comrade said in his thread implicitly proves that sanji's existence as a monolith in the crew is whats keeping oda from definitively calling zoro the authentic 'Fuku-sencho'
which is exactly why i believe Oda introduced the title "Wings of the Pirate King"... he won't name Zoro officially the VC of the crew he might have Marines assume such.. but with the existence of sanji in the crew.. if that were ever to happen it'd need alot more than logic to keep Sanji's tantrums muted..
Oda introducing someone who's not ready to become a subordinate to zoro AND HAS ASSERTED HIS PRESENCE AS THE MIND AND BRAWN OF THE CREW... and then entitling zoro officially the VC in the crew (not through Marines) would be a spit to the face in zoro and sanji's chemistry in the crew and that whole decades worth of development
the whole point is 2 equally reliable folks.. there can't be 1 VC......
PERIOD
I'm glad you at least acknowledge how Sanji agrees with Zoro when Zoro teaches Luffy what it means to be a captain, instead of doing it himself. Always following Zoro's lead, as it was the case in Thriller Bark.
Zoro: "Stay back, I am going to face Kuma" -> Sanji interferes later
Zoro: "I'm going to sacrifice myself for my captain" -> Sanji comes out and says "but I want to be the one"
Zoro: "Stay back, I am going to face Kuma" -> Sanji interferes later
Zoro: "I'm going to sacrifice myself for my captain" -> Sanji comes out and says "but I want to be the one"
He may get the title publicly but it won't be accepted by the strawhats, namely Sanji. It'll lead to more gags where Zoro mocks Sanji for having authority over him (but in reality he doesn't), Luffy himself won't name Zoro the VC and that's what matters. That's if it even happens at this point.
So you're right in that he may be recognized as the VC, but within the crew he wouldn't be officially recognized as one.
So you're right in that he may be recognized as the VC, but within the crew he wouldn't be officially recognized as one.