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I

Indigo

My issue that is he think by extending the arc by another 2 fucking years he’ll enjoy the arc more. Just accept that this won’t be the arc you thought it was. No arc should ever be 8 FUCKING YEARS LONG.

Especially due to the fact that Oda wasted 4 years of this arc already dragging it out to get to the point where the raid will fail only to waste another 2 years getting to the point of them being Kaido whilst about a 1/3 to a half of all that is absolute pointless filler content
Yeah, he enjoys longtime form story telling. What's the problem? He also explained why he thinks Wano is gonna be so long and it makes perfect sense.

He said that in the East Blue we didn't have sagas, just arcs. Every arc was focused on a villain and had a "villain of the week" type of feel. There wasn't any built up story over the East Blue "saga.

Then the story got bigger after getting into the Grandline and Oda changed structures. He went from having one-off arcs, to start creating sagas, building up stories over a few arcs to form one single story. The Alabasta Saga being the first one. And he even explains how most people comparing the arcs from the start of the Grandline to the arcs in the East Blue could think the arcs were weaker, just because they didn't have the same build up as the one-off arcs from the East Blue, since those stories could be built and dealt with entirely. Until Alabasta started and finished, many people could say the arcs from the start of the Grandline felt worse than East Blue, but they needed to see the end of the saga to understand it complete. He also points to how much bigger Alabasta as a whole became, compared to the early One Piece arcs. The same happens to all other sagas in the rest of the Pre-TS.

Then we get into the Post-TS and Morj argues that Oda is doing a new structure now, an even bigger one, saying it's a "super saga". Where Oda uses many sagas (composed of many arcs) to tell one story. Because of that, Wano would also be even bigger than the sagas we are used to, because that's what happened when Oda changed from simple arcs to sagas.

This makes 100% a lot of sense. Since it feels like the entire Post-TS has been a slow build up of 3 sagas, to create this massive saga about the Yonko and taking them down here.
 
Yeah, he enjoys longtime form story telling. What's the problem? He also explained why he thinks Wano is gonna be so long and it makes perfect sense.

He said that in the East Blue we didn't have sagas, just arcs. Every arc was focused on a villain and had a "villain of the week" type of feel. There wasn't any built up story over the East Blue "saga.

Then the story got bigger after getting into the Grandline and Oda changed structures. He went from having one-off arcs, to start creating sagas, building up stories over a few arcs to form one single story. The Alabasta Saga being the first one. And he even explains how most people comparing the arcs from the start of the Grandline to the arcs in the East Blue could think the arcs were weaker, just because they didn't have the same build up as the one-off arcs from the East Blue, since those stories could be built and dealt with entirely. Until Alabasta started and finished, many people could say the arcs from the start of the Grandline felt worse than East Blue, but they needed to see the end of the saga to understand it complete. He also points to how much bigger Alabasta as a whole became, compared to the early One Piece arcs. The same happens to all other sagas in the rest of the Pre-TS.

Then we get into the Post-TS and Morj argues that Oda is doing a new structure now, an even bigger one, saying it's a "super saga". Where Oda uses many sagas (composed of many arcs) to tell one story. Because of that, Wano would also be even bigger than the sagas we are used to, because that's what happened when Oda changed from simple arcs to sagas.

This makes 100% a lot of sense. Since it feels like the entire Post-TS has been a slow build up of 3 sagas, to create this massive saga about the Yonko and taking them down here.
Bro I don’t care about his reasoning no arc should ever be 8 years long when half your fanbase starts dropping it or starts dying off. It would be absolutely destructive to the future of this series if it happens

We still haven’t seen half the Yonko either
 
Yeah, he enjoys longtime form story telling. What's the problem? He also explained why he thinks Wano is gonna be so long and it makes perfect sense.

He said that in the East Blue we didn't have sagas, just arcs. Every arc was focused on a villain and had a "villain of the week" type of feel. There wasn't any built up story over the East Blue "saga.

Then the story got bigger after getting into the Grandline and Oda changed structures. He went from having one-off arcs, to start creating sagas, building up stories over a few arcs to form one single story. The Alabasta Saga being the first one. And he even explains how most people comparing the arcs from the start of the Grandline to the arcs in the East Blue could think the arcs were weaker, just because they didn't have the same build up as the one-off arcs from the East Blue, since those stories could be built and dealt with entirely. Until Alabasta started and finished, many people could say the arcs from the start of the Grandline felt worse than East Blue, but they needed to see the end of the saga to understand it complete. He also points to how much bigger Alabasta as a whole became, compared to the early One Piece arcs. The same happens to all other sagas in the rest of the Pre-TS.

Then we get into the Post-TS and Morj argues that Oda is doing a new structure now, an even bigger one, saying it's a "super saga". Where Oda uses many sagas (composed of many arcs) to tell one story. Because of that, Wano would also be even bigger than the sagas we are used to, because that's what happened when Oda changed from simple arcs to sagas.

This makes 100% a lot of sense. Since it feels like the entire Post-TS has been a slow build up of 3 sagas, to create this massive saga about the Yonko and taking them down here.
Wano is already bigger than Dressrosa + Zou combined
 
Morj having a good old chuckle to himself as he’s sees people talk about how terrible his views are so other people rush to watch his videos and see what the fuss is about.
I shouldn’t be so mad about it but one of my mates died in a crash 2 years back and he was a OP fan on the subreddit with me. Thinking about him not seeing the ending gets me, so shit like this pisses me off.
 
I think you guys are being a bit too mean to Mr. Morj.

I like to make fun of the theory beacuse of how long he kept going and how Oda kept going the other way.

But Mr. Morj has shown multiple times that he doesn't think this is bad writing just because isn't what he wants. He showed many times, just in this arc alone too, of Oda surprising him with things he didn't expect / didn't want to happen and that he still enjoyed. In fact he has said he is very open to enjoy the way Oda could go with this, he just doesn't really like it right now.

And he also used mutiple examples of other arcs from One Piece, not just headcanon / fandom infusion from other manga, but One Piece. He showed how most big arcs has the Straw Hats original plan fail, so that it gives tension and a low point for the heroes to overcome against and the odds and then have a more serious / focused / climatic final battle.

I think he has made his point very well and why the Onigashima raid doesn't have these things. Which is fair. If you are going to tell me that you can see the same intensity / focused energy the Straw Hats had during Alabasta or Enies Lobby, then you are just lying to yourself. They have been joking around and feeling confident, saying they are gonna win, since the start of the raid.

Also the many scenes from the samurai talking about how they are gonna win no matter what, that they feel they can't lose and all that just kills the tension / feel of the raid.
The issue with this is that we are far, FAR beyond the point of inflection where this makes at all good sense.

If the raid started and everyone was curbstomped in 20 or so chapters, then i would have 100% believed in this notion.

However, Oda no longer does things exactly like this anyway. The idea he keeps bringing up is that the crew usually loses before they win. Yes, with Crocodile, Enel, CP9 or Magellan, this made sense. But with Doflamingo or Katakuri, he has simply not lost, not really. He gets sent somewhere or is put at a disadvantage, but he doesn't actually lose his fight.

With Kaido, the Scabbards lost their fight. As did the rooftop 5 for the most part. As did Luffy not once, but 3 times already.

So really what Morj is looking for already has existed, just not in the way he wants it to. And now it's time to finally end. Luffy losing again after his big, hyped powerup by the WG, Zunisha, etc makes little sense, especially when no one else can realisticallyy fight at this time.


I know you agree with me, I'm just pointing out why Morj's take is so baffling to me. He usually is someone who takes things pretty realistic to me, but it's mind boggling to me how he doesn't even really acknowledge the other logical point of view in that Luffy just wins like every other arc.
 
I

Indigo

Wano itself can be considered a saga from its size alone, it it keeps extending it will go beyond "super saga"
- East Blue Saga (100 chapters)

Romance Dawn (7 chapters)
Orange Town (14 chapters)
Syrup Village (20 chapters)
Baratie (27 chapters)
Arlong Park (27 chapters)
Loguetown (5 chapters)

- Alabasta Saga (117 chapters)

Reverse Mountain (5 chapters)
Whisky Peak (9 chapters)
Little Garden (15 chapters)
Drum Island (25 chapters)
Alabasta (63 chapters) (2.3 times longer than the biggest arc before) (climax of the first saga)

- Sky Island Saga (85 chapters)

Jaya (19 chapters)
Skypiea (66 chapters) (even bigger than Alabasta arc)

- Water 7 Saga (139 chapters) (even bigger than Alabasta Saga)

Long Ring Long Land (19 chapters)
Water 7 (53 chapters)
Enies Lobby (56 chapters)
Post-Enies Lobby (11 chapters)

- Thriller Bark Saga (48 chapters)

Thriller Bark (48 chapters)

- Summit War Saga (108 chapters)

Sabaody Archipelago (24 chapters)
Amazon Lily (11 chapters)
Impel Down (25 chapters)
Marineford (31 chapters)
Post-War (17 chapters)


---------------- Time Skip -----------------------

- Fishman Island Saga (56 chapters)

Return to Sabaody (5 chapters)
Fishman Island (51 chapters)

- Dressrosa Saga (148 chapters) (even bigger than Water 7 Saga)

Punk Hazard (46 chapters)
Dressrosa (102 chapters) (1.6 times longer than the biggest arc before)

- Four Emperors Saga (??? chapters)

Zou (23 chapters)
Whole Cake Island (78 chapters)
Levely / Reverie (6 chapters)
Wano (139 chapters as of chapter 1047)

Wano is still 1.36 times longer than the biggest arc before, but it's the climax of the first Super Saga of the Post-Time Skip, since the storylines ending in Wano have been built up since Fishman Island. And like Alabasta before it, it makes sense for it's size to be as long as 1.6 or even 2 times as long as the biggest arc before. So 200 chapters doesn't feel that crazy when you consider the structures of One Piece arcs and sagas.
 
- East Blue Saga (100 chapters)

Romance Dawn (7 chapters)
Orange Town (14 chapters)
Syrup Village (20 chapters)
Baratie (27 chapters)
Arlong Park (27 chapters)
Loguetown (5 chapters)

- Alabasta Saga (117 chapters)

Reverse Mountain (5 chapters)
Whisky Peak (9 chapters)
Little Garden (15 chapters)
Drum Island (25 chapters)
Alabasta (63 chapters) (2.3 times longer than the biggest arc before) (climax of the first saga)

- Sky Island Saga (85 chapters)

Jaya (19 chapters)
Skypiea (66 chapters) (even bigger than Alabasta arc)

- Water 7 Saga (139 chapters) (even bigger than Alabasta Saga)

Long Ring Long Land (19 chapters)
Water 7 (53 chapters)
Enies Lobby (56 chapters)
Post-Enies Lobby (11 chapters)

- Thriller Bark Saga (48 chapters)

Thriller Bark (48 chapters)

- Summit War Saga (108 chapters)

Sabaody Archipelago (24 chapters)
Amazon Lily (11 chapters)
Impel Down (25 chapters)
Marineford (31 chapters)
Post-War (17 chapters)


---------------- Time Skip -----------------------

- Fishman Island Saga (56 chapters)

Return to Sabaody (5 chapters)
Fishman Island (51 chapters)

- Dressrosa Saga (148 chapters) (even bigger than Water 7 Saga)

Punk Hazard (46 chapters)
Dressrosa (102 chapters) (1.6 times longer than the biggest arc before)

- Four Emperors Saga (??? chapters)

Zou (23 chapters)
Whole Cake Island (78 chapters)
Levely / Reverie (6 chapters)
Wano (139 chapters as of chapter 1047)

Wano is still 1.36 times longer than the biggest arc before, but it's the climax of the first Super Saga of the Post-Time Skip, since the storylines ending in Wano have been built up since Fishman Island. And like Alabasta before it, it makes sense for it's size to be as long as 1.6 or even 2 times as long as the biggest arc before. So 200 chapters doesn't feel that crazy when you consider the structures of One Piece arcs and sagas.
Yeah but.....every other fight has occurred and every villain has lost lol. In what scenario does elongating this arc make sense
 
I

Indigo

The issue with this is that we are far, FAR beyond the point of inflection where this makes at all good sense.

If the raid started and everyone was curbstomped in 20 or so chapters, then i would have 100% believed in this notion.

However, Oda no longer does things exactly like this anyway. The idea he keeps bringing up is that the crew usually loses before they win. Yes, with Crocodile, Enel, CP9 or Magellan, this made sense. But with Doflamingo or Katakuri, he has simply not lost, not really. He gets sent somewhere or is put at a disadvantage, but he doesn't actually lose his fight.

With Kaido, the Scabbards lost their fight. As did the rooftop 5 for the most part. As did Luffy not once, but 3 times already.

So really what Morj is looking for already has existed, just not in the way he wants it to. And now it's time to finally end. Luffy losing again after his big, hyped powerup by the WG, Zunisha, etc makes little sense, especially when no one else can realisticallyy fight at this time.


I know you agree with me, I'm just pointing out why Morj's take is so baffling to me. He usually is someone who takes things pretty realistic to me, but it's mind boggling to me how he doesn't even really acknowledge the other logical point of view in that Luffy just wins like every other arc.
Yeah, but none of these defeats felt like half the impact other defeats from other arcs like the ones you said had. Especially when most of those "Defeats" happened in the same raid, they got back up and stronger somehow and didn't even had to change plans or anything. It was still the same thing. They felt more like small setbacks than an actual loss / low point in the raid.

You can't tell me any defeat in Wano felt as low / hopeless to the Straw Hats as stuff like in Alabasta when the crew was in prison and Luffy was defeated far away from the main conflict. Or when they all got defeated by the CP9 agents, got stuck in Water 7 with the Aqua Laguna coming and having no way to get there to save Robin.

Wano defeats feel very small and have almost no impact at all. All Scabards and Roof 5 all came back, and many of them got power ups and defeated strong characters. All in the same raid, no changes in plan, no desperation at all, no more focused / dangerous feeling. It just felt like a longer raid, that's it.

That's why those defeats feel very weak. And i understand why someone think they just don't feel right for the first Emperor of the Sea to fall at the hands of Luffy.

Crocodile was such a massive obstacle to defeat, and he was the first Warlord. Kaido is supposed to be even worse.

I don't think the raid will fail, but it makes perfect sense for me why would someone think / want the Raid to fail, since Wano just doesn't deliver the same impact and difficulty sagas like Alabasta and Enies Lobby showed us, and this was supposed to be the hardest one yet.
 
Yeah, but none of these defeats felt like half the impact other defeats from other arcs like the ones you said had. Especially when most of those "Defeats" happened in the same raid, they got back up and stronger somehow and didn't even had to change plans or anything. It was still the same thing. They felt more like small setbacks than an actual loss / low point in the raid.

You can't tell me any defeat in Wano felt as low / hopeless to the Straw Hats as stuff like in Alabasta when the crew was in prison and Luffy was defeated far away from the main conflict. Or when they all got defeated by the CP9 agents, got stuck in Water 7 with the Aqua Laguna coming and having no way to get there to save Robin.

Wano defeats feel very small and have almost no impact at all. All Scabards and Roof 5 all came back, and many of them got power ups and defeated strong characters. All in the same raid, no changes in plan, no desperation at all, no more focused / dangerous feeling. It just felt like a longer raid, that's it.

That's why those defeats feel very weak. And i understand why someone think they just don't feel right for the first Emperor of the Sea to fall at the hands of Luffy.

Crocodile was such a massive obstacle to defeat, and he was the first Warlord. Kaido is supposed to be even worse.

I don't think the raid will fail, but it makes perfect sense for me why would someone think / want the Raid to fail, since Wano just doesn't deliver the same impact and difficulty sagas like Alabasta and Enies Lobby showed us, and this was supposed to be the hardest one yet.
Yeah but ask yourself, when has this truly happened in arcs post TS? I think we really need to stop comparing old OP structures to new.
 
I

Indigo

Yeah but ask yourself, when has this truly happened in arcs post TS? I think we really need to stop comparing old OP structures to new.
I think it's a valid way to compare when people love sagas from One Piece such as Alabasta and Water 7 / Enies Lobby.

Especially when Oda decided to make Wano much more closer to how those old sagas worked than Post-TS sagas.

1st we got all the crew togehter, no splitting.

2nd almost all straw hats get individual or duo fights, actual hard fights that are obstacles, not just showcases like Fishman Island.

3rd we have the straw hats having a plan of how they are gonna solve things, and those plans usually fail, but then in Wano they never actually failed, they just got delayed.

4th Oda creatred this massive "this arc is gonna be really hard" feeling with puting not only Kaido, but also Big Mom here too, so it's very weird to create the hardest arc in theory in terms of tension, yet let the heroes win easier than other arcs before it. No actual defeats, just small setbacks and delays, and a bunch of Power Ups in the middle of the arc to help solve problems. Sanji and Zoro get two power ups in the same arc, Luffy gets three, Law and Kidd reveal to have awakening and infinite stamina.

You can talk however you want about Mr. Morj, but you can't deny that this arc doesn't feel as hard as it should be. It doesn't even matter if the raid fails or not, it's not a matter of "i want the raid to fail exactly like i want", it's a matter of "where is the difficulty that was promised and built up over 500 chapters?"

That's what Morj feels missing, that's it.
 
J

Joy D. MADS

There are 5 kings of hell, kaidos thunder baguas variations has done 4.

So for sure that fist wont be the end.
Kaido can do the last one to try to counter Luffy's attack.
Post automatically merged:

Last chapter you had Luffy with lightning - ended up in nothing.
This chapter you have Luffy with big fist - gonna end up in nothing.
How many times does it need to happen for you to understand?
This whole fight is a series of false climaxes. Wake up. :suresure:
:gokulaugh::okay:
 
I

Indigo

@Paperchampion23 just the fact that most people don't feel like the fight is ending, even with all the dialogue and editor notes that are being posted, just shows how the community as a whole is not satisfied with the raid.

Just look back on many of the fights we had, most of those had the same posts / feelings constantly.

"So Franky, Robin and Jinbei defeated the F6 just like that? no Awakening or anything?" - They felt something missing

"Jack went down just like that? after showing his hybrid and no named attacks?" - They felt something missing

"So Sanji and Zoro defeated the calamities just like that? it was so boring after they got their power ups, they went down too fast, Kaido's top commanders have no awakening?" - They felt something missing

and now it's happening again with Luffy vs Kaido

people feel tension / drama / difficulty missing in these fights and struggle, they don't end up feeling satisfied
 
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