General & Others If ZKK does happen
- Thread starter TheSufferingGob
- Start date
All that attack did was make the future conflict (ZKK) between Zoro and Kaido more guaranteed
Yeah, I don't really care about what happened before the main time line of the story. That is nowhere near enough to offset how Oda has established the Straw Hats from a narrative standpoint for almost 25 years.
If Oda wanted people to believe ZKK was a real possibility, he would have been moving Zoros character down that path all throughout Timeskip. Literally nothing about his Character arc in over 1000 chapters lead to it being believable that he would do something like cutting off someone's head on panel.
If Oda wanted people to believe ZKK was a real possibility, he would have been moving Zoros character down that path all throughout Timeskip. Literally nothing about his Character arc in over 1000 chapters lead to it being believable that he would do something like cutting off someone's head on panel.
Not only that, but Zoro was always written as one of the (if not the only) crew member who would not hesitate to kill someone if he believed it was deserved.
Has there ever been a moment where Zoro deliberately decided not to kill his enemy when he was going to? Not that I can remember. Sure, he doesn't go off executing his opponents after they've been defeated, but does Zoro really know/care if they survive anyway?
In other shonen manga/anime, the main characters tend to have specific conflicts about killing people. Naruto, FMA, etc. It's not really a thing in One Piece. Oda says that Luffy doesn't kill enemies because he [Oda] thinks that it's better to crush their dreams, not because Luffy necessarily has an issue with it.
People act like it's literally Kaido's dream to die lmao. His dream is, when he dies, he wants it to be grand. How is his dream going to be crushed if we never even find out how he dies in the first place?
Kaido was introduced as someone who can't be beaten in a 1v1 and someone who can't die. It seems like we're gonna break the first rule, how about the second? Some people don't find it weird that we were literally told that no one can kill Kaido, and that even if you defeat and restrain/imprison him, he still gets out?
I wasn't talking about Kaido's move
What's stupid about it?
Has there ever been a moment where Zoro deliberately decided not to kill his enemy when he was going to? Not that I can remember. Sure, he doesn't go off executing his opponents after they've been defeated, but does Zoro really know/care if they survive anyway?
In other shonen manga/anime, the main characters tend to have specific conflicts about killing people. Naruto, FMA, etc. It's not really a thing in One Piece. Oda says that Luffy doesn't kill enemies because he [Oda] thinks that it's better to crush their dreams, not because Luffy necessarily has an issue with it.
People act like it's literally Kaido's dream to die lmao. His dream is, when he dies, he wants it to be grand. How is his dream going to be crushed if we never even find out how he dies in the first place?
Kaido was introduced as someone who can't be beaten in a 1v1 and someone who can't die. It seems like we're gonna break the first rule, how about the second? Some people don't find it weird that we were literally told that no one can kill Kaido, and that even if you defeat and restrain/imprison him, he still gets out?
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I wasn't talking about Kaido's move
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What's stupid about it?
ik, but still you're building this narrative on thin air... its like some really obscure assertion that "it was always this certain" with theses point you posit regarding Oni alway being an evident trail to whats "about to unfold".. when i remember correctly the only real reason for ZKK was Ryuma's one shot which is the foundation itself even now if you go back has 0 allusions to onis connecting to zoro's story arc in the grand scheme of things .. the only plausible lead is thriller bark where again zoro's plot was dealt with Ryuma as his main character arc of the arc.
the only parallel i can draw is zoro gets a new sword.. and he tries it on an Oni in both arcs where the are major connecting plot points.
the rest of the theory comes from what now.. mythologies on wiki's.. non-canon magazines and exaggerated plot points like vindication for stolen swords which never got elaborated upon by the author to even remotely build upon such a plot point and some passionate vehement justifications from fans and their bias? what's left..
nothing suggests zoro's gonna just up solo kaido like that meant to be Duel since the dawn of the story kinda thing that was being prompted by folks here
Just imagine you'd expect Oda to treat zoro like the MC for such a huge occasion but rather he gives ambiguous disjointed hints that we're supposed to re-engineer and form logical plot courses?
the only parallel i can draw is zoro gets a new sword.. and he tries it on an Oni in both arcs where the are major connecting plot points.
the rest of the theory comes from what now.. mythologies on wiki's.. non-canon magazines and exaggerated plot points like vindication for stolen swords which never got elaborated upon by the author to even remotely build upon such a plot point and some passionate vehement justifications from fans and their bias? what's left..
nothing suggests zoro's gonna just up solo kaido like that meant to be Duel since the dawn of the story kinda thing that was being prompted by folks here
Just imagine you'd expect Oda to treat zoro like the MC for such a huge occasion but rather he gives ambiguous disjointed hints that we're supposed to re-engineer and form logical plot courses?
The argument about killing is so arbitrary. "Good guys" kill in One Piece. Lucky kills in order to save Luffy in the very first chapter and it didn't bother him in the slightest. Luffy also didn't mind that at first glance Zoro seemed to kill Buggy or Hawkins, just like he killed Mr 7 or the magistrate, or the bounty hunters on whiskey peak once the confusion was cleared up. Luffy really doesn't give a shit. He also doesn't mind if Kaido dies, based on what he said to Yamato and implied throughout the alliance with Kinemon.
This violates literally nothing but people keep trying to disqualify it.
Oh and you also talk about "literally." Um maybe you forgot that he's decapitated one dragon already and said he'd cut Kaido into pieces
This violates literally nothing but people keep trying to disqualify it.
Oh and you also talk about "literally." Um maybe you forgot that he's decapitated one dragon already and said he'd cut Kaido into pieces
Look, I get doubting the magazines and the mythology stuff. But for stuff that's approved by Oda/his editors, you would think that they would remove things as controversial as saying there will be a new dragon-slaying legend. Idk. Even some of the mythology stuff has been accurate in the past regarding Sanji's true backstory and even as recently as Luffy's fruit. Even aside from that:
The line in Zoro's Vivre Card literally says that Zoro came to Onigashima to exterminate an Oni as dictated by a fate that Zoro is not necessarily aware of. I'm pretty sure the VC are more closely supervised by Oda or even written by Oda in comparison to the databooks and magazines.
I'm ok if it doesn't happen, in fact recently I've been keeping my hopes low because of my reservations about Oda. But if it doesn't happen, you really can't say it was a narrative pushed by iffy evidence when the vivre cards say stuff like that so plainly. Do some people use vague and possibly unrelated hints to push the narrative, myself included? Hell yeah, but you can honestly suggest the theory with only 1-2 pieces of evidence and nothing else would be necessary
The line in Zoro's Vivre Card literally says that Zoro came to Onigashima to exterminate an Oni as dictated by a fate that Zoro is not necessarily aware of. I'm pretty sure the VC are more closely supervised by Oda or even written by Oda in comparison to the databooks and magazines.
I'm ok if it doesn't happen, in fact recently I've been keeping my hopes low because of my reservations about Oda. But if it doesn't happen, you really can't say it was a narrative pushed by iffy evidence when the vivre cards say stuff like that so plainly. Do some people use vague and possibly unrelated hints to push the narrative, myself included? Hell yeah, but you can honestly suggest the theory with only 1-2 pieces of evidence and nothing else would be necessary
But the problem is that there's nothing really meritorious for Zoro as a fighter to kill Kaidou after Kaidou has already been defeated by Luffy and is too weak or not even conscious to be able to defend himself. In this case, Zoro will just be doing the dirty job, which even Kin'emon should be able to do since he's also able to cut Kaidou, preferably cutting off Kaidou's head just to make sure.
I understand @ShadowStyle369 's explanation that no one has been able to kill Kaidou even though he has already been captured many times, and this is a valid point. But that seemed impressive in the past because it sounded like no one was able to get through Kaidou's durability in order to deal effective damage to kill him. So now that so many characters have already proven to be able to effectively cut Kaidou, the act of just killing Kaidou won't necessarily look so impressive by itself, unless Kaidou turns out to have some power that allows him to reattach his head to his neck after it has already been cut off.
The only way for Zoro to look cool killing Kaidou is if he does it while Kaidou is still conscious, still looking powerful and as a real threat, preferably when Kaidou surpasses Luffy's expectation as it was supposed to be a double KO but then Kaidou rises up again becoming even more powerful, and Luffy doesn't have any power left to do anything about it, so Zoro appears to save the day cutting off Kaidou's head.
I understand @ShadowStyle369 's explanation that no one has been able to kill Kaidou even though he has already been captured many times, and this is a valid point. But that seemed impressive in the past because it sounded like no one was able to get through Kaidou's durability in order to deal effective damage to kill him. So now that so many characters have already proven to be able to effectively cut Kaidou, the act of just killing Kaidou won't necessarily look so impressive by itself, unless Kaidou turns out to have some power that allows him to reattach his head to his neck after it has already been cut off.
The only way for Zoro to look cool killing Kaidou is if he does it while Kaidou is still conscious, still looking powerful and as a real threat, preferably when Kaidou surpasses Luffy's expectation as it was supposed to be a double KO but then Kaidou rises up again becoming even more powerful, and Luffy doesn't have any power left to do anything about it, so Zoro appears to save the day cutting off Kaidou's head.
and the evidence being the one-shot and the viver card yea?
like OK even if assuming you can take the mags and vc's as a source to pitch the theory.. wouldn't you expect there to be more substance there to back it up story wise rather than just mags talking about the western dragon and how zoro beheaded one in PH and "hinting" towards another potential moment..
isn't this in lockstep to what oda has been doing with the bounties LOL like having us infer King's hierarchical superiority to Queen just to reveal their bounties in the VIVERCARD.. where here one's not an assumption but a description.
Zoro and Kaido lack any intuitive tension/conflict between eachother.. it seems one sided.
like ok i get Oda bringing in the "monster swordsman" comment and it does seem like an opportunity for Zoro to prove himself (some might argue he did with Kaido not verbalizing his concession) but damn the lack of any substance in terms growth between them to really make things more scintillating.. it just isn't there to make a good case for why zoro being the long sought dragon slayer.
the best you can argue is a collaborative assassination which doesn't require there to be a set trend or trails of hints but themes maybe,then again Kaido is someone who characterizes as someone fond of a legendary death.. him meeting his end is another aspect of Wano all together.. it just can't be simplistically answered by saying "antagonist never get what they desire" yea consistent trop true but it just wouldn't do justice to kaido...hopefully this one is a streak breaker
like OK even if assuming you can take the mags and vc's as a source to pitch the theory.. wouldn't you expect there to be more substance there to back it up story wise rather than just mags talking about the western dragon and how zoro beheaded one in PH and "hinting" towards another potential moment..
isn't this in lockstep to what oda has been doing with the bounties LOL like having us infer King's hierarchical superiority to Queen just to reveal their bounties in the VIVERCARD.. where here one's not an assumption but a description.
Zoro and Kaido lack any intuitive tension/conflict between eachother.. it seems one sided.
like ok i get Oda bringing in the "monster swordsman" comment and it does seem like an opportunity for Zoro to prove himself (some might argue he did with Kaido not verbalizing his concession) but damn the lack of any substance in terms growth between them to really make things more scintillating.. it just isn't there to make a good case for why zoro being the long sought dragon slayer.
the best you can argue is a collaborative assassination which doesn't require there to be a set trend or trails of hints but themes maybe,then again Kaido is someone who characterizes as someone fond of a legendary death.. him meeting his end is another aspect of Wano all together.. it just can't be simplistically answered by saying "antagonist never get what they desire" yea consistent trop true but it just wouldn't do justice to kaido...hopefully this one is a streak breaker
Well, I think the point is that Zoro is unaware of his fate as has been suggested in the VCs, the mags, and even by Kawamatsu/Hyogoro in the manga.
Zoro doesn't know that he is [probably] a Shimotsuki. He doesn't know that he has a connection with Wano and its lore since centuries ago. What I see is that Oda is building Zoro up to unintentionally become one of the primary saviors of Wano alongside Luffy by having him act in accordance with Ryuma.
Besides, if ZKK were to happen, I would expect the effect that Oda is looking for to be complete shock. If it was supposed to be obvious to the casual reader that Zoro was going to do it, it would not have nearly the same effect.
The other issue is, part of the reason that ZKK is plausible (or at the very least, another confrontation between Zoro and Kaido) is because of unfinished business Zoro has in Wano:
1. Black blades
2. Shimotsuki lineage
3. "Monster samurai"
You might say that these things don't have to be resolved in Wano. However, we've been TOLD about them in Wano, even multiple times, and they are hardly relevant outside of Wano. If you [or someone] doesn't believe these things will be rectified in Wano, then would you even believe in ZKK if the hints had been spoonfed to us?
Think about it this way: if Zoro had declared time and time again that he would be the one to kill Kaido, if Zoro had expressed so much pent up anger towards Kaido, would that really change anything? If anything, Zoro would be treated in the community like the people who mocked Kid fans for thinking Kid would actually do something major against Kaido based on the sole fact that Kid said he would.
So ultimately, my point is this:
1. In my interpretation of ZKK, it is meant to be a shocking event that is not predictable to the casual reader
2. Zoro has unfinished business in Wano, and Kaido is the only antagonist left. Kaido is even involved in 2 of the 3 orders of business I mentioned
3. Zoro having more overt conflict with Kaido wouldn't have changed anything in the grand scheme of things when considering how convincing ZKK is to people who don't believe in it in the first place
Zoro doesn't know that he is [probably] a Shimotsuki. He doesn't know that he has a connection with Wano and its lore since centuries ago. What I see is that Oda is building Zoro up to unintentionally become one of the primary saviors of Wano alongside Luffy by having him act in accordance with Ryuma.
Besides, if ZKK were to happen, I would expect the effect that Oda is looking for to be complete shock. If it was supposed to be obvious to the casual reader that Zoro was going to do it, it would not have nearly the same effect.
The other issue is, part of the reason that ZKK is plausible (or at the very least, another confrontation between Zoro and Kaido) is because of unfinished business Zoro has in Wano:
1. Black blades
2. Shimotsuki lineage
3. "Monster samurai"
You might say that these things don't have to be resolved in Wano. However, we've been TOLD about them in Wano, even multiple times, and they are hardly relevant outside of Wano. If you [or someone] doesn't believe these things will be rectified in Wano, then would you even believe in ZKK if the hints had been spoonfed to us?
Think about it this way: if Zoro had declared time and time again that he would be the one to kill Kaido, if Zoro had expressed so much pent up anger towards Kaido, would that really change anything? If anything, Zoro would be treated in the community like the people who mocked Kid fans for thinking Kid would actually do something major against Kaido based on the sole fact that Kid said he would.
So ultimately, my point is this:
1. In my interpretation of ZKK, it is meant to be a shocking event that is not predictable to the casual reader
2. Zoro has unfinished business in Wano, and Kaido is the only antagonist left. Kaido is even involved in 2 of the 3 orders of business I mentioned
3. Zoro having more overt conflict with Kaido wouldn't have changed anything in the grand scheme of things when considering how convincing ZKK is to people who don't believe in it in the first place
It has nothing to do with whether good guys kill or not. It has everything to do with if their established as the type of character who does kill, and their character arc is setting them on a path to do just that. Zoro killing a regular dragon means fuck all in comparison to decapitating an actual person. Luffy killed tons of animals on Ruskaina during the Timeskip. Doesn't mean Oda is going to have him punch Blackbeards head off. And nobody would ever expect him to do that, because his character arc is not set towards that path. But apparently, that don't matter for Zoro for some God knows what reason. Why establish and build that up from a narrative standpoint. Joe Schmoe the editor said maybe we will get a new story of someone decapitating an Eastern Dragon in a magazine, so Zoro is going to kill Kaido.