Future Events Please enlighten me why ZKK won't happen
- Thread starter serkeara
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Spare me the headcanons and focus on what story has told - I have come to Onigashima to cut Kaido into peices! WHY?
It is one of many things that story has done regarding Zoro vs Kaido while you claimed barely anything canon happened.
lol, you are coping again while you were literally asking for it. Story has done plenty of cannon stuff to setup Zoro vs Kaido.
You can say "hence ZKK?" to all of them if that makes it easier to digest but dont pretend that build-up isnt there. It's in your face.
You know very well what the inherited will through Enma is and scarring Kaido isnt it. It is doing what Oden couldnt - killing Kaido.
Zoro is just starting.
Premium cope strikes again. Zoro is the monster samurai that Kaido dreams about.
He was targetting Kaido the whole time. He stopped targetting him because he was in no condition to proceed after Hakai.
Once Kaido awakens and goes on rampage who is the one to put a permanent end to Kaido? You guessed it - captain Usopp!
Story has created the greatest build-up ever with Zoro and Kaido and the only thing that is misplaced in the whole situation is Luffy.
Oda has gotten the MC out of his system. Now he can go back to what he started and has been going towards anyway.
ZKK express is going full power and nothing in this world can stop it.
It is one of many things that story has done regarding Zoro vs Kaido while you claimed barely anything canon happened.
lol, you are coping again while you were literally asking for it. Story has done plenty of cannon stuff to setup Zoro vs Kaido.
You can say "hence ZKK?" to all of them if that makes it easier to digest but dont pretend that build-up isnt there. It's in your face.
You know very well what the inherited will through Enma is and scarring Kaido isnt it. It is doing what Oden couldnt - killing Kaido.
Zoro is just starting.
Premium cope strikes again. Zoro is the monster samurai that Kaido dreams about.
He was targetting Kaido the whole time. He stopped targetting him because he was in no condition to proceed after Hakai.
Once Kaido awakens and goes on rampage who is the one to put a permanent end to Kaido? You guessed it - captain Usopp!
Story has created the greatest build-up ever with Zoro and Kaido and the only thing that is misplaced in the whole situation is Luffy.
Oda has gotten the MC out of his system. Now he can go back to what he started and has been going towards anyway.
ZKK express is going full power and nothing in this world can stop it.
1. Wait, so Oda says that killing is secondary to defeat, but by your logic killing is going overshadow defeating Kaido?
2.
3. Zoro had the help of countless others to reach Kaido and have him on the edge of destruction. That's not the same at all as fighting Mihawk in a duel. Again, a sort of logic that implies something like Luffy being too strong for Shanks because he managed to overcome Kaido (with a ton of help).
2.
3. Zoro had the help of countless others to reach Kaido and have him on the edge of destruction. That's not the same at all as fighting Mihawk in a duel. Again, a sort of logic that implies something like Luffy being too strong for Shanks because he managed to overcome Kaido (with a ton of help).
Ryuuma even attain legendary status due to him slaying a dragon, for hundreds years after.
It is reasonable to say Zoro killing Kaido is a greater feat than (just) defeating Kaido.
2. Those are Luffy's principle, especially him acknowledging himself as pirate. Zoro takes pride of his Samurai status more. Several times in the manga Oda shows us Zoro's samurai spirit.
3. Similar to my first point, it's more about fame.
In OP world, it seems that WSC is a bigger deal than WSS. Also, the people seems to care about result more than the process (e.g. Luffy as WCI's mastermind), especially with the propaganda and the kind of news of the world.
If the public learn the news of Swordman A killing Kaido and Swordman B defeating Mihawk at the same time, it's evident that dragon slayer will be a hotter topic.
1. When did Luffy say he cares about fame? His goal is to be PK and last I checked he wants his people to eat. He had no qualms about giving the W over Doflamingo to Law, or having Zoro and the others take part in beating Kaido back when he thought his internal destruction was enough to get the job done.
The gorosei are concerned with what happens if Kaido loses, but how doesn't matter to them... unless you remember that the thought of Joyboy awakening after 800 years terrifies them.
"Oh Nika has been resurrected but it doesn't matter because he didn't get the last hit on Kaido."
2.
Zoro is a pirate by his own admission. He resembles a samurai, but he never calls himself a samurai and is willing to do what it takes to win the day. His PRIDE revolves around sword duels, and the fight against Kaido's crew isn't about that at all. Luffy stayed away from Mihawk until Zoro lost, Zoro would stay out of Luffy's duel the same way IF Luffy didn't agree to have help. And even if Luffy wanted to win or lose alone, it wouldn't make sense for Zoro to not fight after Luffy was finished.
3. You make that point even worse by mentioning WCI. Capone was the actual mastermind and Caesar helped. Luffy did his own thing, but got credit for leading the attack and actually commanding the others, including Germa lol. So Luffy will get his credit either way, especially because he awakened the most ridiculous power. WSC? Either way that's not going to be Luffy because he was never going to beat Kaido without help, whereas Kaido's the guy who kills people for helping him.
The gorosei are concerned with what happens if Kaido loses, but how doesn't matter to them... unless you remember that the thought of Joyboy awakening after 800 years terrifies them.
"Oh Nika has been resurrected but it doesn't matter because he didn't get the last hit on Kaido."
2.
Zoro is a pirate by his own admission. He resembles a samurai, but he never calls himself a samurai and is willing to do what it takes to win the day. His PRIDE revolves around sword duels, and the fight against Kaido's crew isn't about that at all. Luffy stayed away from Mihawk until Zoro lost, Zoro would stay out of Luffy's duel the same way IF Luffy didn't agree to have help. And even if Luffy wanted to win or lose alone, it wouldn't make sense for Zoro to not fight after Luffy was finished.
3. You make that point even worse by mentioning WCI. Capone was the actual mastermind and Caesar helped. Luffy did his own thing, but got credit for leading the attack and actually commanding the others, including Germa lol. So Luffy will get his credit either way, especially because he awakened the most ridiculous power. WSC? Either way that's not going to be Luffy because he was never going to beat Kaido without help, whereas Kaido's the guy who kills people for helping him.
I like your enthusiam. I sadly don't have the energy to pick and elaborate arguments from how I see things.
I just like making fun of people that think ZKK is a real thing after Zoro's knockout and with open plotstrings + explanations needed in the Kaido and Joyboy relationship.
But after being in the right camps for a long time now (somewhere after Reverie), I am pretty convinced that I am again in the right camp.
But it's funny to think about people reading Doujinshis in future if they want ZKK. Doujinshis don't have to necessarily be hentais. It's a broad term used for selfcreated fan stories/fanfics that follow the japanese manga formula.
I just like making fun of people that think ZKK is a real thing after Zoro's knockout and with open plotstrings + explanations needed in the Kaido and Joyboy relationship.
But after being in the right camps for a long time now (somewhere after Reverie), I am pretty convinced that I am again in the right camp.
But it's funny to think about people reading Doujinshis in future if they want ZKK. Doujinshis don't have to necessarily be hentais. It's a broad term used for selfcreated fan stories/fanfics that follow the japanese manga formula.
Thanks for the doujinshi lesson, you sure know a lot about them.
There are open plot strings with Joyboy, but there are also open plot strings with Zoro. Kaido literally just finished bragging about the strength of a conqueror with no DF lol. Maybe it's all what Oda plans to address now, or maybe none of it is.
There are open plot strings with Joyboy, but there are also open plot strings with Zoro. Kaido literally just finished bragging about the strength of a conqueror with no DF lol. Maybe it's all what Oda plans to address now, or maybe none of it is.
Trash tier theory
If you ask what is the purpose of ZKK they will answer :
-Black Blade despite we don't know how a black blade is forged)
-Fulfill a parallel with Ryuma (Zoro was already comapred to ryuma, fought him, had his sword, looks like him, killed 2 dragons) also fulfill a parallel isn't a enough to justify ZKK storywise
- Made Kaido recognized samurai are strong : He have Oden in his bracket of strong fighters and still too short to justify ZKK storywise
and so on...
If you asks why it won't happen storywise :
- Luffy made 2 alliance both were to take down Kaido
- Promise several times to surpass Kaido and Big Mom with one in Chapter 1000
- Promise to kick out Kaido from Wa No and not just defeat him
- It is needed in his PK journey to take out Kaido
- How many times Luffy said he will beat Kaido since PH
Now : Why it won't happen :
Zoro is still K-O when Kaido is defeated
Kaido will likely accept his loss against Joyboy
Luffy and Kaido had that clash of will (which Luffy won)
That's just what comes to my mind they have several points that I can add
If you ask what is the purpose of ZKK they will answer :
-Black Blade despite we don't know how a black blade is forged)
-Fulfill a parallel with Ryuma (Zoro was already comapred to ryuma, fought him, had his sword, looks like him, killed 2 dragons) also fulfill a parallel isn't a enough to justify ZKK storywise
- Made Kaido recognized samurai are strong : He have Oden in his bracket of strong fighters and still too short to justify ZKK storywise
and so on...
If you asks why it won't happen storywise :
- Luffy made 2 alliance both were to take down Kaido
- Promise several times to surpass Kaido and Big Mom with one in Chapter 1000
- Promise to kick out Kaido from Wa No and not just defeat him
- It is needed in his PK journey to take out Kaido
- How many times Luffy said he will beat Kaido since PH
Now : Why it won't happen :
Zoro is still K-O when Kaido is defeated
Kaido will likely accept his loss against Joyboy
Luffy and Kaido had that clash of will (which Luffy won)
That's just what comes to my mind they have several points that I can add
1. When did Luffy say he cares about fame? His goal is to be PK and last I checked he wants his people to eat. He had no qualms about giving the W over Doflamingo to Law, or having Zoro and the others take part in beating Kaido back when he thought his internal destruction was enough to get the job done.
The gorosei are concerned with what happens if Kaido loses, but how doesn't matter to them... unless you remember that the thought of Joyboy awakening after 800 years terrifies them.
"Oh Nika has been resurrected but it doesn't matter because he didn't get the last hit on Kaido."
2.
Zoro is a pirate by his own admission. He resembles a samurai, but he never calls himself a samurai and is willing to do what it takes to win the day. His PRIDE revolves around sword duels, and the fight against Kaido's crew isn't about that at all. Luffy stayed away from Mihawk until Zoro lost, Zoro would stay out of Luffy's duel the same way IF Luffy didn't agree to have help. And even if Luffy wanted to win or lose alone, it wouldn't make sense for Zoro to not fight after Luffy was finished.
3. You make that point even worse by mentioning WCI. Capone was the actual mastermind and Caesar helped. Luffy did his own thing, but got credit for leading the attack and actually commanding the others, including Germa lol. So Luffy will get his credit either way, especially because he awakened the most ridiculous power. WSC? Either way that's not going to be Luffy because he was never going to beat Kaido without help, whereas Kaido's the guy who kills people for helping him.
The gorosei are concerned with what happens if Kaido loses, but how doesn't matter to them... unless you remember that the thought of Joyboy awakening after 800 years terrifies them.
"Oh Nika has been resurrected but it doesn't matter because he didn't get the last hit on Kaido."
2.
Zoro is a pirate by his own admission. He resembles a samurai, but he never calls himself a samurai and is willing to do what it takes to win the day. His PRIDE revolves around sword duels, and the fight against Kaido's crew isn't about that at all. Luffy stayed away from Mihawk until Zoro lost, Zoro would stay out of Luffy's duel the same way IF Luffy didn't agree to have help. And even if Luffy wanted to win or lose alone, it wouldn't make sense for Zoro to not fight after Luffy was finished.
3. You make that point even worse by mentioning WCI. Capone was the actual mastermind and Caesar helped. Luffy did his own thing, but got credit for leading the attack and actually commanding the others, including Germa lol. So Luffy will get his credit either way, especially because he awakened the most ridiculous power. WSC? Either way that's not going to be Luffy because he was never going to beat Kaido without help, whereas Kaido's the guy who kills people for helping him.
- When did Luffy say he cares about fame?
Wrong focus. The discussion is about "killing is going overshadow defeating Kaido ". Killing or defeating Kaido will bring fame, doesn't matter if the perp wanting fame or not. So the focus here is the fame in the world/public brought by the event, not character's views about fame. Kaido has been defeated several times vs Kaido has been killed. Even if the public remembers all of the people who beat him, it will not be as grandeur as the one who dealt the killing blow to him.
- His goal is to be PK
Which can be done simply by reaching Laugh Tale (and acquiring One Piece). But Oda went out his way on making Luffy battling and defeating all of the Yonko (ref: Luffy's talk with Law, Luffy's refusal to just stealing BM's poneglyph). So, "defeating Kaido" is the stepping stone here, the narrative will put focus and emphasize on this, not "X kills Kaido".
- He had no qualms about giving the W over Doflamingo to Law
Although irrelevant, I still don't remember about these two part. Can you show me the panels?
- or having Zoro and the others take part in beating Kaido
This is mostly because of narrative constraint, with BM being there. Luffy can't take 2 Yonko at the same time, so all 5 appears. Also Supernova showcase.
- when he thought his internal destruction was enough to get the job done
As far as I remember, Luffy never said and complaint about this.
- The gorosei are concerned with what happens if Kaido loses, but how doesn't matter to them... unless you remember that the thought of Joyboy awakening after 800 years terrifies them. "Oh Nika has been resurrected but it doesn't matter because he didn't get the last hit on Kaido."
The "how" matters because dragon-slaying is a big thing (see Ryuuma's fame). The killer will be a legend. Killing Kaido is objectively bigger feat than defeating Kaido, because, again, Kaido have been defeated several times yet he is still alive.
- Zoro would stay out of Luffy's duel the same way
You said it yourself. Kaido is Luffy's game. Him killing Kaido after Luffy defeats Kaido *is* an intervention. The same way Luffy didnt fight Mihawk after he defeated Zoro. Zoro won't goes after Kaido.
- it wouldn't make sense for Zoro to not fight after Luffy was finished.
There is no precedent to this. So far, when an enemy got beaten, they stayed that way and the defeat got credited to the one who fight them until the end. Until now, no SH repeat the fight of other SH. Even when Luffy KOed and Kaido goes down to the live floor, no characters are actually fight him 1vs1.
- You make that point even worse by mentioning WCI. Capone was the actual mastermind and Caesar helped. Luffy did his own thing, but got credit for leading the attack and actually commanding the others, including Germa lol. So Luffy will get his credit either way, especially because he awakened the most ridiculous power.
Then what is the point of ZKK if Kaido's death are credited to Luffy? The dragon slayer parallel, title, fame went to him instead of the "proper" Zoro? I will use your words then, "by your logic, Mihawk's defeat will be credited to Luffy and he will be both PK and WSS?"
There is a difference. Bege's masterplan can be credited to Luffy because ideas/plan are vague thing. Who knows if it Luffy's team or Bege's team who actually plan it. The Marines doesn't know for certain. But the ZKK scenario will make it clear that Kaido will be killed by beheading or cutting, something that only a swordsman can do. Which means it's clear that Luffy didnt do it, and the credit will go to Zoro instead.
By ZKK logic, Kaido's death can be done by Zoro and the credit can go to Luffy,
By the same ZKK logic, Mihawk's defeat can be done by Zoro and the credit must also go to Luffy.
You talk about focus and then try to nitpick everything in a much longer post than mine lol.
- Fame:
Luffy got credit for having the strength the beat Cracker and Katakuri with NO HELP MENTIONED. He got credit for a technical victory over Big Mom even though Jinbe was the only one to land a punch on her. He got credit for leading Germa even though they didn't follow any orders. You mention a deathblow and not only is Luffy never going to land a deathblow, but he'd still get credit if his subordinate is the one to accomplish it.
- defeating all the Yonko:
He said that he'll beat all the Yonko and admirals, he told Big Mom and Katakuri that he'd be the one to beat her and get Fish man Island under his protection. The result is someone else, Law who has no grudge at all, beating her alongside Kid who isn't even an alliance member.
- Doflamingo:
- Fighting Kaido alone:
Above, Luffy was willing to let Law win and didn't resolve to fight again until Law was done. Then he told Sabo that Doflamingo was still his opponent and that he didn't need help. Enies Lobby, he told them that Lucci was his upfront. Onigashima, Zoro and Luffy say they'll reach Kaido together without knowing it's gonna be 5v2. When Kinemon starts fighting Luffy doesn't say leave him to me, he says I'll join you. Even if he's unwilling to share Kaido now, he seems to have passed out at the end of 1049.
- Back to fame, this time with Ryuma:
It's basically a rumor outside of Wano. If you're worried about Zoro being more famous to the Wano citizens, again, Zoro is a member of his crew so jealousy doesn't make any sense. Even if it did make sense, too damn bad because they have no fucking clue what a Nika is and they are guaranteed to find out that the spitting image of Ryuma is the one who returned Shusui.
-on a parallel to Mihawk:
For the last time, no. Kinemon statted the whole thing by stabbing Kaido. Each Scabbard has drawn blood, so have Law and Zoro. If someone else draws Mihawk's blood while fighting Zoro, Zoro would be likely to draw his own blood to make it even. Not the same as Kaido at all, especially considering Mihawk is the ultimate rival and as you hopefully understand, Kaido is just one of four emperors.
Change your username lmao
- Fame:
Luffy got credit for having the strength the beat Cracker and Katakuri with NO HELP MENTIONED. He got credit for a technical victory over Big Mom even though Jinbe was the only one to land a punch on her. He got credit for leading Germa even though they didn't follow any orders. You mention a deathblow and not only is Luffy never going to land a deathblow, but he'd still get credit if his subordinate is the one to accomplish it.
- defeating all the Yonko:
He said that he'll beat all the Yonko and admirals, he told Big Mom and Katakuri that he'd be the one to beat her and get Fish man Island under his protection. The result is someone else, Law who has no grudge at all, beating her alongside Kid who isn't even an alliance member.
- Doflamingo:
OuTsHiNe LuFfY
hE nEeDs To ClAiM tHe W aLoNe
hE nEeDs To ClAiM tHe W aLoNe
Above, Luffy was willing to let Law win and didn't resolve to fight again until Law was done. Then he told Sabo that Doflamingo was still his opponent and that he didn't need help. Enies Lobby, he told them that Lucci was his upfront. Onigashima, Zoro and Luffy say they'll reach Kaido together without knowing it's gonna be 5v2. When Kinemon starts fighting Luffy doesn't say leave him to me, he says I'll join you. Even if he's unwilling to share Kaido now, he seems to have passed out at the end of 1049.
- Back to fame, this time with Ryuma:
It's basically a rumor outside of Wano. If you're worried about Zoro being more famous to the Wano citizens, again, Zoro is a member of his crew so jealousy doesn't make any sense. Even if it did make sense, too damn bad because they have no fucking clue what a Nika is and they are guaranteed to find out that the spitting image of Ryuma is the one who returned Shusui.
-on a parallel to Mihawk:
For the last time, no. Kinemon statted the whole thing by stabbing Kaido. Each Scabbard has drawn blood, so have Law and Zoro. If someone else draws Mihawk's blood while fighting Zoro, Zoro would be likely to draw his own blood to make it even. Not the same as Kaido at all, especially considering Mihawk is the ultimate rival and as you hopefully understand, Kaido is just one of four emperors.
Change your username lmao
That is exactly why imho Kaido will stand up and Luffy not, Kaido's Haki is just more ripe and Luffy went all out as a youngin'. So Kaido can fight the upcomming invaders. Zoro might be out of comission for longer because he seems to have a near death experience and it feels like this will set up his next major fight which is not Kaido. It might be Shiryuu or an admiral.
I like Sawyer's theory of Zoan fruits only awaken when the user dies, that's why we don't see other Zoan awakenings in Wano and that's why Kaido tried to die all the time.
Very interesting and fresh take
that's why the guardians in Impel Down are so mindless and beastly/animalistic, their old users soul died and the devil fruit soul took over the body
Zoan User dies -> body remains + soul dies -> devil fruit soul takes over body -> Awakening
in Luffy's case his soul kept on living, because he carries the will of the D. that's why he can probably be brought back, maybe through Law's powers
and that's why the World Government is after Law's fruit because that way they can awaken their Zoan's for example the one of Green Bull, or the one from the CP-0 members like Lucci
this all flows together like a waterfall
now imagine this theory is true, how would it impact ZKK? if Zoro kills Kaido then Kaido will awaken and lose his mind, I wanna throw it in here
Very interesting and fresh take
that's why the guardians in Impel Down are so mindless and beastly/animalistic, their old users soul died and the devil fruit soul took over the body
Zoan User dies -> body remains + soul dies -> devil fruit soul takes over body -> Awakening
in Luffy's case his soul kept on living, because he carries the will of the D. that's why he can probably be brought back, maybe through Law's powers
and that's why the World Government is after Law's fruit because that way they can awaken their Zoan's for example the one of Green Bull, or the one from the CP-0 members like Lucci
this all flows together like a waterfall
now imagine this theory is true, how would it impact ZKK? if Zoro kills Kaido then Kaido will awaken and lose his mind, I wanna throw it in here
