Spoiler General Kingdom Spoiler

Is Bleach Better than Kingdom?


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I think JKR dies, and that’s how Shin goes from being on 3GH’s shitlist to another. Perhaps JKR served his father, the last Lord of Seika, and trained him when he was a young boy. Could be cool.

If JKR does die, then I also suspect Fuu On will be a general the next time we see him, having taken JKR’s place.
 
3 named guys + the fodder he had to cut down in between, going by the chapter before.

They tried to jump Shin, lmao.
Feel like shin needs to develop his own kill squad. He can't keep going after every commander himself. The Teeth guy could form a squad of maybe 10 spear users like the squad Gyoun where they can hunt low level commanders (100-2000 man commanders). Rinko already proved it's one the best way to collapse an army.
 
Feel like shin needs to develop his own kill squad. He can't keep going after every commander himself. The Teeth guy could form a squad of maybe 10 spear users like the squad Gyoun where they can hunt low level commanders (100-2000 man commanders). Rinko already proved it's one the best way to collapse an army.
Teeth guy?

Going by chapter 643, Shin’s personal army, is comprised of:
~3700 cavalry (incl. Ten’s 100 bodyguards and messengers)
~6300 infantry (incl. 800 archers and 100 Seki Tribe)

This total figure also includes the 3 special units:
Black Hi Hyou
Red Hi Hyou
Na Ki Unit

Each of these units has 500 cavalry and 500 infantry each. I’m not sure when we’ve seen the infantry of any of those units, but Hara says they have 1500 infantry among them, so it is what it is.

The 100-Man Seki Tribe aren’t frontline fighters and a special unit in their own right.

The remaining units are
En Unit - 200 cavalry, 800 infantry
So Sui Unit - 1000 cavalry
Suu Gen Unit - 1000 infantry
Den Yuu Unit - 500 cavalry, 500 infantry
Den Ei Unit - 500 cavalry
Hai Rou Unit - 500 infantry
Ryuu Sen Unit - 500 infantry
Taku Ei Unit - 200 infantry
Bi Hei Unit - 100 infantry
Ryuu Yuu Unit - 100 infantry
Chu Tetsu Unit - 100 infantry
Archery Unit - 800 infantry

Shin doesn’t have a personal unit per se, but going by the panels in the manga, it appears he usually leads the combined manpower of the So Sui, Den Yuu and Den Ei cavalry units. (Don’t ask me why Den Yuu had 500 infantry either.)

If you recall that awesome flag moment during the Coalition War - Den Yuu and Den Ei were the flag bearers, and So Sui was right next to Shin.

The thing about elites - it’s a bit of a funny sticking point, because the entire Hi Shin Army is made up of elites. They’re all much stronger than the average soldier, and we know why: not only does the HSA have extreme recruiting conditions, it’s also unit in which only the strong survive.

That goes for the Gyoku Hou and Gaku Ka too.

Hara has to go out of his way to note how elite the enemy is because otherwise he’d never hear the end of it from readers.

But to get back to the point of a personal unit that sticks to and moves only with Shin at all times - I don’t think any of the Q3 have enough spare manpower or enough experience.

Rin Ko would’ve been approaching 50 by now if he were still alive. He fought for Ren Pa since he was a teenager. The elites that served him, likely served him for longer than any of the Q3 were a part of the Qin military apparatus.

That said, if they wanted to, the Q3 could condense their units to give themselves that level or protection, albeit it at a cost to their versatility, because they would have to completely change the structure of their armies to accommodate that change. I suspect that’s why Shin simply rides ahead of whatever unit is nearby or appropriate at the time.

Hopefully, Shin will have that elite unit down the line, but we’re a ways off from that.
 
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Did not.


Shin holded 3 dudes, while Jin and Tan was doing nothing.
3 named guys + the fodder he had to cut down in between, going by the chapter before.

They tried to jump Shin, lmao.
You don't mind how Shin and Garo jumped the Old general before? Last chapter we literaly saw only 1 panel where shin blocked 2 guys at the same time and got pushed back by the General.
This Chapter you can see Garo is with Shin fighting one of the dudes, while the other one is seen killing a fodder next to Shin. Shin isn't jumped by 3 guys, he has help himself.

The Bow guys pierced thru the Old generals arm and forced him to block arrows, that allowed Shin to finaly land a hit lol
 
You don't mind how Shin and Garo jumped the Old general before?
It's a battle, not a boxing match. They need JKR dead or out of the way. JKR tried to jump Shin with a gangbang anyway.
The Bow guys pierced thru the Old generals arm and forced him to block arrows, that allowed Shin to finaly land a hit lol
JKR looks like he can give Shin a high diff fight at bare minimum. Shin would undoubtedly defeat him in a 1v1 but that would require time, time that the entire Qin Army doesn't have.

Shin either needs JKR dead very quickly (which would require assistance) or he needs him incapacitated long enough for the HSU to move forward again.
 
You don't mind how Shin and Garo jumped the Old general before? Last chapter we literaly saw only 1 panel where shin blocked 2 guys at the same time and got pushed back by the General.
This Chapter you can see Garo is with Shin fighting one of the dudes, while the other one is seen killing a fodder next to Shin. Shin isn't jumped by 3 guys, he has help himself.

The Bow guys pierced thru the Old generals arm and forced him to block arrows, that allowed Shin to finaly land a hit lol
I have absolutely zero problems with Shin getting attacked by multiple opponents. In fact, it’s the opposite. Shin has killed more than a dozen Zhao generals and slew Hou Ken in single combat when he was arguably more nerfed than him.

At this point, Hara should’ve given us a flashback scene where RBK expressly forbids his generals from fighting him mano y mano. Shin should be Minato status in Zhao: unless you have overwhelming numbers, it’s flee on sight. Better to live to fight another day than tempt fate.

I can go on for hours on this, but I’ll digress and simply add this: I don’t think Shin intended to fight JKR 2v1 once he got a hold of him. It’s not his style, and frankly it wasn’t necessary. I do think that JKR had every intention of attacking Shin with numbers - his so-called right and left hand seem experienced in helping their lord at doing just that.

As for last chapter - it’s hard to tell the passing of time, but it reads to me like Shin was separated from Ga Ro for a non-insignificant time because the latter had trouble getting past the sea of Zhao elites.

The way they attacked Shin, it’s very similar to the way Mou Ten got knocked down: he was stabbed in the side by a fodder and then struck by Gaku Shou.

Like I said a couple pages back, I like how these Seika boys think. They come in hard to smash the enemy, kill their leaders and then exterminate the rest. Straightforward and quite effective, when done right.
 
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I have absolutely zero problems with Shin getting attacked by multiple opponents.
You understood me wrong, i said you don't mind how Shin and Garo jumped the Old General, not how Shin got jumped.
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Instead of acknowledging that Shin is finally at least getting the respect of being double teamed, etc. - people are complaining he isn't one-shotting everyone left and right? What's interesting about that?
It's not about it being ''interresting'' or not. You can't have Shin beating the man who was the pinacle of martial might, while being much more nerfed than he was and let him now struggle with some ''right and left hands'' of an Old General who surely isn't the Top of the Top.
Yes, Shin should wipe the floor with them, that's what proper powerscaling would look like. You thing Houken would have been stopped by those 2? He would have obliterated them.
Hara simply made a huge mistake in letting Shin beat Houken so early and nerfed on top of that. Now you have this nonsense here where he is clearly too weak of what he should be capable of.
Imagine letting Luffy struggle against Smoker now, because otherwise it wouldn't be ''interesting''...
 
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All this talk about Jyou Ka Ryuu reminds me:

Post your thoughts and predictions on what stats the Seika commanders should have here.

Stats are by and large bullshit, but they can be fun.

I'll probably make another thread asking for predictions on how big the Q3's armies will be next, who will be promoted to what, etc. Those are fun topics too.

You understood me wrong, i said you don't mind how Shin and Garo jumped the Old General, not how Shin got jumped.
I didn't misunderstand. I addressed that here:
I don’t think Shin intended to fight JKR 2v1 once he got a hold of him. It’s not his style, and frankly it wasn’t necessary. I do think that JKR had every intention of attacking Shin with numbers - his so-called right and left hand seem experienced in helping their lord at doing just that.
Had Un Kei and Un Gen not arrived, I don't think Shin would've carried on making it a 2v1. I believe Ga Ro would have backed off and let his general handle business.

Having said that, I wouldn't have a problem if Shin was going to jump in against someone. He and Ou Hon pretty much tried to 2v1 Rin Ko, even though they weren't planning that or happy about it, lol.

Duels are great and all, but there's a time and place for it, and frankly, I don't think JKR would be all that competitive against current Shin. He did well in blocking the first blow - even though I think it's kinda bullshit - but we know what Shin is capable of.

Personally, I wish we could've seen Shin and Kyou Kai 2v1 Hou Ken with some measure of success at least once.
 
Had Un Kei and Un Gen not arrived, I don't think Shin would've carried on making it a 2v1. I believe Ga Ro would have backed off and let his general handle business.

Having said that, I wouldn't have a problem if Shin was going to jump in against someone. He and Ou Hon pretty much tried to 2v1 Rin Ko, even though they weren't planning that or happy about it, lol.

Duels are great and all, but there's a time and place for it, and frankly, I don't think JKR would be all that competitive against current Shin. He did well in blocking the first blow - even though I think it's kinda bullshit - but we know what Shin is capable of.

Personally, I wish we could've seen Shin and Kyou Kai 2v1 Hou Ken with some measure of success at least once.
Shin was screaming ''keep attacking Garo''...doubt he would have backed off if the 2 didn't jump in.
The point i am bringing is that, people celebrate here how Shin can fight off people while being jumped, so i brought up Shin and Garo jumping the Old General too and failed to take him down.

Isn't a great look. And i posted in my previous post, that Shin is portrait clearly too weak.
 
It's not about it being ''interresting'' or not. You can't have Shin beating the man who was the pinacle of martial might, while being much more nerfed than he was and let him now struggle with some ''right and left hands'' of an Old General who surely isn't the Top of the Top.
Yes, Shin should wipe the floor with them, that's what proper powerscaling would look like. You thing Houken would have been stopped by those 2? He would have obliterated them.
Hara simply made a huge mistake in letting Shin beat Houken so early and nerfed on top of that. Now you have this nonsense here where he is clearly too weak of what he should be capable of.
Imagine letting Luffy struggle against Smoker now, because otherwise it wouldn't be ''interesting''...
You're acting like Shin fought Hou Ken under ordinary circumstances.

It took everything Shin had to win that fight, to the point he died right after, and even then didn't win because he was a better martial artist. Even today, Shin isn't on Hou Ken's level. He probably won't be for years. Hell, he might never truly match him.

Shin won that duel because it was just as much a battle of ideology as it was a battle of arms, and Hou Ken lost that battle. He had a crisis of conscience and identity because he was confronted with the inescapable truth that his life had been a lie and his teachings were false, that his mission had been folly, and his sacrifices were for nothing.

Hou Ken was dead before Shin put him out of his misery.

Now, regarding this battle: Shin isn't experienced in fighting off multiple attackers at once. Not formidable ones, anyway. Fodder he can deal with just fine.

re Luffy - if you think he isn't going to struggle after beating Kaidou, I have a bridge to sell you.
 
It's not about it being ''interresting'' or not. You can't have Shin beating the man who was the pinacle of martial might, while being much more nerfed than he was and let him now struggle with some ''right and left hands'' of an Old General who surely isn't the Top of the Top.
Yes, Shin should wipe the floor with them, that's what proper powerscaling would look like. You thing Houken would have been stopped by those 2? He would have obliterated them.
Hara simply made a huge mistake in letting Shin beat Houken so early and nerfed on top of that. Now you have this nonsense here where he is clearly too weak of what he should be capable of.
Imagine letting Luffy struggle against Smoker now, because otherwise it wouldn't be ''interesting''...
1) Shin barely beat Houken and he had Kyoukai injure Houken before that fight. Claiming that Shin should mollywhop everyone from now on because he barely beat Houken with assistance is like claiming Luffy should mollywhop everyone from now on because he barely beat Kaido with assistance.

It is stupid.

2) JKR was previously the main martial might (before being surpassed by Ji Aga) of a General that was offered the same position as Renpa/Rinshoujou/Shousa/Riboku. It would not be unrealistic or unreasonable for JKR to be comparable to the likes of Ranbihaku or Akou, both of which would give Shin a good fight and would clap back against Houken.

3) Houken's "pinnacle of martial might" deal was deliberately portrayed as being hollow. No amount of training or fighting Houken could would ever change the fact he was just a human or replace the emptiness that is fighting for nothing and nobody.

Houken became completely demoralised in his fight against Shin since his entire world view had been torn down. It was that demoralised state that allowed Shin to ultimately beat him.

Shin didn't beat Houken through strength of arms, he beat him through strength of ideology.
 
You're acting like Shin fought Hou Ken under ordinary circumstances.

It took everything Shin had to win that fight, to the point he died right after, and even then didn't win because he was a better martial artist. Even today, Shin isn't on Hou Ken's level. He probably won't be for years. Hell, he might never truly match him.

Shin won that duel because it was just as much a battle of ideology as it was a battle of arms, and Hou Ken lost that battle. He had a crisis of conscience and identity because he was confronted with the inescapable truth that his life had been a lie and his teachings were false, that his mission had been folly, and his sacrifices were for nothing.

Hou Ken was dead before Shin put him out of his misery.

Now, regarding this battle: Shin isn't experienced in fighting off multiple attackers at once. Not formidable ones, anyway. Fodder he can deal with just fine.
It was friendship power that made Shin win. Is it BS? Yes. Does this now justify Shin struggle against much weaker oponents? Clearly not. Why not use his Friendship power now if he doesn't have the martial might for that? I mean he literaly lost one of his main and closest fighters and friends right before his eyes. Same thing happened with Houken.
You yourself say Shin isn't on Houkens level and might never be, you don't see the bullshittery? You can't pull some random shit out your ass, use that to make a character defeat someone he might never be able to beat ever - and then go back to make him weaker, because otherwise the story would be too easy. Shin defeating Houken happend and is now part of the story. Everytime Shin is gonna struggle against someone much weaker than Houken, it will feel like bad writing - because it it.
There ain't no ideology that gonna bring you back after getting pummelt by Houken to the point of where you can't even tell if you are awake or not. Shin got overpowered over and over and over again. Laying on the ground bleeding out...Ideology didn't make him stronger from that nor weaken Houken. Shin was pretty much already dead, yet all of a sudden he got so much power that he could overpower Houken. It's called plot armor in combination with Friendship power.
Always funny when people try to justify this nonsense.
re Luffy - if you think he isn't going to struggle after beating Kaidou, I have a bridge to sell you.
Sigh...i said: ''Imagine letting Luffy struggle against Smoker now, because otherwise it wouldn't be ''interesting''... ''
I didn't said he wouldn't struggle against anyone....

Luffy also won alot of times with Plot Armor and Friendship power, but Oda never went back on that and made him weaker all of a sudden.
 
It was friendship power that made Shin win. Is it BS? Yes. Does this now justify Shin struggle against much weaker oponents? Clearly not. Why not use his Friendship power now if he doesn't have the martial might for that? I mean he literaly lost one of his main and closest fighters and friends right before his eyes. Same thing happened with Houken.
You yourself say Shin isn't on Houkens level and might never be, you don't see the bullshittery? You can't pull some random shit out your ass, use that to make a character defeat someone he might never be able to beat ever - and then go back to make him weaker, because otherwise the story would be too easy. Shin defeating Houken happend and is now part of the story. Everytime Shin is gonna struggle against someone much weaker than Houken, it will feel like bad writing - because it it.
There ain't no ideology that gonna bring you back after getting pummelt by Houken to the point of where you can't even tell if you are awake or not. Shin got overpowered over and over and over again. Laying on the ground bleeding out...Ideology didn't make him stronger from that nor weaken Houken. Shin was pretty much already dead, yet all of a sudden he got so much power that he could overpower Houken. It's called plot armor in combination with Friendship power.
Always funny when people try to justify this nonsense.
You still crying about "friendship power" even after you failed to respond to this?
Really? Friends?
Sei Kyou was at best, an ally of convenience to Shin, Rinko was an enemy that respected Shin but an enemy nonetheless and Mangoku hated Shin and straight up threatened to haunt him if he did not keep his promise.

Or are we taking “friendship power” to mean any form of inner strength that is sourced from a character’s relationship to any other character, past or present? Does that mean characters who are motivated by the loss of their loved ones have “friendship power”?

Do characters that are motivated by revenge such as Guts, Goblin Slayer, The Punisher etc. now have “friendship power”? Lol.

It does. If the concept was first introduced in the Shin vs Houken dual then we would all be calling it a complete arse pull. Lol.

I wholeheartedly disagree. People will always push themselves to their limit in order to protect what and (in the case of the concept we are now discussing) who they hold most dear.

It is not an inherently bad concept. It is a concept that can be difficult to execute without coming off as cheesy but if executed correctly it is a simple but heartwarming concept that strikes a relatable cord with a basic element of our human nature, the desire to protect our own.

Which brings us to a different but related point.

As @Admiral Lee Hung once eloquently said...


In a manga about humanity, could Hara actually avoid the concept of people drawing strength from their connections and relationships to others? Of our desire to protect those or the memory of those (as is the case of inherited will) who are dear to us, no matter the cost? Of one of the most basic traits that makes humanity ultimately, human?

The answer in my opinion, is no. For Hara to avoid such a basic concept that is inherently part of human nature in a manga about humanity would be akin to attempting to write a love story without romance.

Ultimately, Hara chose the spiritual route of “friendship power”/motivation through character relationships/whatever you perceive it as, through the concept of Inherited Will.

Arguing that a concept within a series is inherently bad merely because other series have explored the concept is like arguing that Burger King’s burgers are inherently bad because MacDonald’s, Supermac’s, KFC and Eddie Rocket’s also serve burgers, regardless of whatever seasoning, condiments, sauces or side dishes each outlet serves with their respective burgers.

It is not so much the basic concept within a story that matters but the execution of said concept.


No, they are absolutely not.

Shin has fought legendary Great Generals since the Wei Fire Dragon Arc. He was able to keep up with Gaimou about 2/3 arcs ago, matched Gyou’un (an individual that was credited as being “The Martial Might of Zhao” during a time when beasts like Renpa and Kaishibou were active at the same time) blow for blow and he has slayed Great Heaven Houken.

Current Shin has been above Mougou and Choutou for whole arcs now, would arguably defeat Duke Hyou during this arc and would give both Ouki and Moubu an extreme diff fight.

Current Shin i.e. the Shin that fought Houken, in terms of physical prowess, is without doubt above ordinary Great Generals (e.g. Mougou and Choutou) and is on par with Legendary Great Generals (e.g. Zhao Three, Qin Six, Wei Seven etc.).

Shin also certainly has the Weight of a General by Ouki’s definition of it.


It really does not matter when Shin literally no longer has those wounds, does it?

Riddle me this.

If Shin with life threatening wounds could overpower Houken, why can’t Shin who now no longer has those wounds, overpower literal fodder that he is attacking from behind?

Firstly, at no point is Shin portrayed as being “fresh”. Still does not change the fact he should be able to easily overpower literal fodder even in his current condition (i.e. exhausted, no wounds).

Secondly, unless Kyoukai has accidentally dabbled into the territory of necromancy and resurrected Shin as a zombie then I do not see how this “no breathing” malarkey affects anything considering that Shin will have been breathing sweet oxygen since his resurrection, no?

Seriously, what even is this argument? Lol.
 
Chapter spoilers thanks to TKC :

Zhao soldier: If the Hi Shin Unit was able to break free from the encirclement, then surely that man will also do something.
Riboku: He can't do anything. Unlike Shin, Kanki is unable to perform any extraordinary feats. From the beginning, Kanki doesn't have that which normal generals possess. That is Kanki's weakness.

From saemoon



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Zhao soldier: If the Hi Shin Unit was able to break free from the encirclement, then surely that man will also do something.
Riboku: He can't do anything. Unlike Shin, Kanki is unable to perform any extraordinary feats. From the beginning, Kanki doesn't have that which normal generals poss
@Owl Ki @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung here Riboku hyping Shin or underestimating Kanki too much ?? It has been shown that Kanki isn't like other generals who carries general's weight or has patriotism/duty towards state but still !!!!!:catsure:
 
Chapter spoilers thanks to TKC :

Zhao soldier: If the Hi Shin Unit was able to break free from the encirclement, then surely that man will also do something.
Riboku: He can't do anything. Unlike Shin, Kanki is unable to perform any extraordinary feats. From the beginning, Kanki doesn't have that which normal generals possess. That is Kanki's weakness.

From saemoon



Post automatically merged:


@Owl Ki @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung here Riboku hyping Shin or underestimating Kanki too much ?? It has been shown that Kanki isn't like other generals who carries general's weight or has patriotism/duty towards state but still !!!!!:catsure:
 
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