I saw you also said Luffy would fight Kizaru @Salah WG
Since the thread creator is unable to provide any connection between the two, what's your reasoning for it?
None of those are at the speed of light unless you want to admit that a rusted Ray without being light is also doing the same shit - at speed of light because he is matching everything Kizaru does?
It takes really good CoO to spot Kizaru, merely spot him.
Hawkins was already a famous pirate according to Shakky, if he had basic CoO and noticed a glaring light while Kizaru's leg is touching his hair it's not that big of a deal anymore.
Too much mental gymnastics lead to dumb conclusions, Kizaru said he was kicking him at the speed of light so that's who I'm gonna believe, if he kicks at the speed of light then he fights with his sword at the speed of light.
Certainly more reasonable than Kizaru, without using his devil fruit, and with a crappy sword made of intangiable matter that requires a lot of haki to maintain, put a low-mid top tier swordsman like old Ray on the backfoot and had him huffing.
It makes a lot of sense that he barely kept up from his pure speed, and as a result started huffing. This ofcourse supported by Rayleigh showcasing one of the better stamina feats by swimming through the grandline.
None of those are at the speed of light unless you want to admit that a rusted Ray without being light is also doing the same shit - at speed of light because he is matching everything Kizaru does?
With CoO he can manage to hold his own, that's what it means to be a top tier.
He eventually starts huffing from overwhelming speed.
If this wasn't possible then no one stands a chance against Kizaru. It's bonkers to think Kizaru with a crappy sword had Ray on the backfoot and huffing lmao.
Do we have a sword duel where the choreography was handled in this manner?
And if Kizaru is a swordsman that compromises himself with a crappy non lightspeed light sword, why can't he just get a quality sword
With CoO he can manage to hold his own, that's what it means to be a top tier.
He eventually starts huffing from overwhelming speed.
If this wasn't possible then no one stands a chance against Kizaru. It's bonkers to think Kizaru with a crappy sword had Ray on the backfoot and huffing lmao.
Do we have a sword duel where the choreography was handled in this manner?
And if Kizaru is a swordsman that compromises himself with a crappy non lightspeed light sword, why can't he just get a quality sword
You still dont get it. CoO isnt doing shit there. It's useless to read his moves if your body cannot keep up with "lightspeed Kizaru".
This is literally Sasuke vs Raikage - reading the moves with Sharingan is useless if the body can react to it.
Why are you shitting on Kizaru like this? Rusted old dude who didnt eat light fruit is doing the same light-speed movement...
Seems like only extremists are able to notice Kizaru having a named sword...
Once it is revealed that it is one of the 12 Supreme swords, what mental gymnastics will yall say then?
One piece has simple linear story progression while having parallel with the past.
WG is responsible for Void Century
Roger failed to accomplish something after becoming PK and One Piece.
WG is huge and we know that one trait of Luffy which has been constantly highlighted by Oda is ability of Luffy to make allies (highlighted by Mihawk as most dangerous ability)
As much as I like BB I don't see anyone including BB as EoS opponent - WG fits well with IMU being that overpowered opponent
This is why I dont actually believe hes the final antagonist in the series. For PK it makes sense considering his role in the story, but as the final big bad, I question it.
I dont necessarily disagree that Im cant or wont be the final antagonist either, but something about an unrevealed villain this late into the game strikes me as odd for Oda, who's basically set up the majority of his antagonists early on.
I tend to bring up Shanks in this regard for a multitude of reasons but in the context of this thread, it's very hard to see Shiryu as being the endgame antagonist for Zoro, let alone anyone in the WG personally to me.
However, when you realize that Shanks and Mihawk (yes, not part of Shanks' crew but someone who has exclusive history with him) are 100% central to the main drives to Luffy and Zoro, it almost makes sense if the series ends with these 2 characters.
The problem is this website turns everything into powerscaling definitions with swordsmansholip, which is unfortune because it causes people to make pretty limited assumptions about what can and cant happen.
Thats just me though, Shanks could be irrelelevant in prior to the EoS, just have a hard time seeing that when chapter 907 exists.
You still dont get it. CoO isnt doing shit there. It's useless to read his moves if your body cannot keep up with "lightspeed Kizaru".
This is literally Sasuke vs Raikage - reading the moves with Sharingan is useless if the body can react to it.
Why are you shitting on Kizaru like this? Rusted old dude who didnt eat light fruit is doing the same light-speed movement...
Seems like only extremists are able to notice Kizaru having a named sword...
Once it is revealed that it is one of the 12 Supreme swords, what mental gymnastics will yall say then?
You still dont get it. CoO isnt doing shit there. It's useless to read his moves if your body cannot keep up with "lightspeed Kizaru".
This is literally Sasuke vs Raikage - reading the moves with Sharingan is useless if the body can react to it.
Why are you shitting on Kizaru like this? Rusted old dude who didnt eat light fruit is doing the same light-speed movement...
Vergo was faster than shambles, literal teleportation, you're underestimating the potential of honing ones body.
Naturally Rayleigh has top tier physicals, along with crop of the cream CoO he's able to keep up to some extent.
When Kizaru uses the Yata mirror, fodder characters probably can't see him use the move nor teleport. He doesn't really need to pronounce he's travelling, it's just a way to show the audience how's he's doing it.
Yata mirror could also be a means to travel through weird angles maybe, like teleporting to Apoo's roof
In MF he didn't pronounce it even once.
Instances where Kizaru teleported at the speed of light without Yata @HA001 OF THE RAIN
-Attacking Whitebeard
-Teleporting after Marco sent him flying
-Against Luffy x2
-The panel posted above
-When he trolled Beckman
What you're saying breaks the entire powerscaling system, he'd be unmatched, tho ngl it's funny that I'm shitting on Kizaru here compared to your interpretation of how his power works
Vergo was faster than shambles, literal teleportation, you're underestimating the potential of honing ones body.
Naturally Rayleigh has top tier physicals, along with crop of the cream CoO he's able to keep up to some extent.
When Kizaru uses the Yata mirror, fodder characters probably can't see him use the move nor teleport. He doesn't really need to pronounce he's travelling, it's just a way to show the audience how's he's doing it.
Yata mirror is also used to travel through weird angles, like teleporting to Apoo's roof
In MF he didn't pronounce it even once.
Instances where Kizaru teleported at the speed of light without Yata @HA001 OF THE RAIN
-Attacking Whitebeard
-Teleporting after Marco sent him flying
-Against Luffy x2
-The panel posted above
-When he trolled Beckman
What you're saying breaks the entire powerscaling system, he'd be unmatched, tho ngl it's funny that I'm shitting on Kizaru here compared to your interpretation of how his power works
This thread is probably going to get a lot of hate, but I feel it's a discussion we should be having as we get closer to the EoS. I'd say the worst "bias" I'll probably have here is towards Shanks as a character, but I think I've stayed pretty safe when it comes to the future PK and WSS matchups in general.
Anyway, one thing to consider: I'm only talking about known characters obviously. Whatever happens between Egghead and Laugh Tale and beyond is anyone's guess. Obviously, we don't know of there's some Underworld or Elbaf villain separate from anyone we know for example. So while I cover Egghead now, I can't really do the same logically for the rest, unless we assume some things about the next few arcs.
1. Getting the first controversial opinion out of the way: Egghead.
Luffy vs Kizaru: Hot topic this week but I feel that you only need to understand 1 simple rule in this series: Luffy faces the strongest opponent in the arc. If Kizaru is an antagonist, and if there is no one stronger than Kizaru, then its extremely likely this is a Luffy fight. Can Zoro clash with him? Of course, just as he did with Kaido and several other main antagonists in the past. I just think it's plainly obvious what happens if Kizaru ends up being the antagonist.
Zoro vs Kuma: This one is a bit harder to get people convinced, but consider 2 things: Zoro had one of his biggest moments in the series due to Kuma and the fact is, that he never truly defeated Kuma. Kuma's powers in fact are, in a way, a direct counter to Zoro's fighting style. Having Zoro actually surpass Kuma's broken reflection powers could be a next step over King. Is AdCoC enough to directly bypass a paramecia power? We know BB is the only person who can strictly cancel DF powers. There's also the question of Kuma's allegiance. Imo, he's not going to be bad, but Zoro may need to "rescue" him from some type of control or programming. We'll see how that goes down.
2. Since we don't know directly what the next arcs truly are (personally speculated to be Beehive, Elbaf and/or Lodedtar, but who truly knows), I'm just going to jump to Laugh Tale. But to point out, I consider Shanks and BB two sides of a coin that does 1 of 2 things: Either will serve as the final antagonist before One Piece or the actual final antagonist for the end of series. I do not believe the series directly ends against the Marines or WG. They ofc play a huge role will be there in the climax, but Blackbeard and Shanks are ultimately what matter most.
Luffy vs Blackbeard OR Shanks: Now consider that there may be ample time between Egghead and Laugh Tale for this matchup to have buildup, but with Shanks going after One Piece now, and Whitebeard telling Blackbeard he wont be the one to find One Piece, carry the true history on his back, and fight the WG, leads me to believe either Yonko will be fought at Laugh Tale as the final block to PK.
For the Luffy vs Shanks argument, it's pretty simple. Luffy defeats Shanks before "returning" the hat and becoming PK signifying he surpassed his idol. This makes sense because Shanks is confirmed to be going after the treasure now. Now as for "why", my argument is that there's just simply way too little we know about him. His odd interactions with unlikely people, his hidden motivations and actions that make you question his intentions. Then there is the sheer capacity of his haki and feats pulled off by his character in the story.
For the Luffy vs Blackbeard argument, he's actively looking to steal Road Poneglyphs from Law, who should have 2 or 3. Luffy and BB are polar opposites and as with WBs speech, will essentially fight to lead the D. Clan to take down the world's oppressors (though in BBs case, he'd just be the new oppressor).
B. Zoro vs Shiryu or Beckman: Obvious outcome. Now, Shiryu is partially the reason why I think BB is going down first, primarily because Mihawk exists and Shiryu does not have a black blade. I won't assume though that he's not a powerhouse, I just struggle to see how he's Zoro's last fight. Beckman personally works IF Shanks is going down earlier and not later. If Shanks goes down later as the final battle, then I think Mihawk needs to be Zoro's matchup simply because he and Shanks have history and what Mihawk represents for Zoro as the WSS.
Again, whichever Yonko doesn't fall at Laugh Tale, the other may be the final antagonist considering what the represent for the MC. It depends on what is done by Laugh Tale.
3. Final War machups with the Marines and WG. These imo are the simplest, especially if Kizaru is handled at Egghead.
Luffy vs Akainu and Im: Akainu is pretty obvious. It doesnt make sense with the amount of plot buildup. Now, Im is an assumption though, based in potential strength of the Gorosei and this being a shonen. Wont spend too much time on this one.
Zoro vs Fujitora and Ghandi: Commensurate with Luffy's fights, these work the best base on what is left. Fuji being a swordsman, and Ghandi having Shodai Kitetsu, which may link back to Wano and even him recognizing traits of Zoro when compared to Ryuuma or someone else, really can support this.
4. Yes, I think there's one more fight after the final war, at potentially God Valley. And yes, these would be the surviving Yonko that did not fall at Laugh Tale. In either case, Shanks and BB both have arguments because of their ties to the island: Shanks was found there by Roger after the incident and BB has loose ties to Rocks in his own way (mainly due to his ship's name and speculation on that)
As for Luffy's merit with both, we know the reasons why at this point, and whomever isn't fought before he's PK will have a larger presence on the endgame.
Zoro's side is a bit more interesting however. I think, regardless of the route that's gone, Mihawk must be the fight that is directly associated to Zoro. This means either making Shiryu or Beckman irrelevant, or having them fight someone else.
Personally, I believe more in the "Blackbeard first, Shanks last" route, but who knows. There's also the possibility that yes, Shanks isn't fought directly, which changes things up significantly. But I think it's ultimately important to consider something: Mihawk genuinely has no other direct history or connection to anyone save for Shanks. He's (currently) not allied to the government or Marines and is in fact, hunting them. If Mihawk is 100% Zoro's last fight, it puts into question where Mihawks relevancy will ultimately be important, because Zoro vs Mihawk is all but guaranteed to be the 2nd to last fight in the series (obvious Luffy will get the last one).
As Kaido said, "Haki conquers all", which is why I think the series may end with these 2 powerhouses in a primarily haki based battle.
Tldr:
There are 4-5 more major fights for Luffy and Zoro (assuming there aren't surprise fights between Egghead-Laugh Tale, which there might be) and those are:
- Luffy vs Kizaru
- Luffy vs Blackbeard or Shanks
- Luffy vs Akainu
- Luffy vs Im
- Luffy vs Blackbeard or Shanks
- Zoro vs Kuma
- Zoro vs Shiryu or Beckman
- Zoro vs Fujitora
- Zoro vs Ghandi
- Zoro vs Mihawk (in placement of either Shiryu or Beckman)
This doesn't seem too unreasonable or unrealistic.
I understand why some would be annoyed - obviously Luffy is prone to "hogging the spotlight". That is a consequence of the way he's been designed to effectively shoulder the vast bulk of the combat burden for his crew. It's really his role, but it does mean that it often feels like Luffy is carrying the crew, which can be unpleasant for those who want to see the other crew members have a bit more preeminence. Like how Benn Beckman threatened Kizaru and was at least portrayed as a relatively serious threat - they want that out of Zoro, Sanji and perhaps Jinbei.
From another angle, I was thinking that it actually is quite funny how the Strawhat's concept of battle-honor actually functions to give the antagonists such as the admirals a fighting a chance - because the Strawhats themselves will likely opt for one on one combat and try not to interfere in eachother's fights.
If this happened with Blackbeard, it is not unreasonable to imagine that his entire crew would gang up on Kizaru in order to merc him as quickly and effortlessly as possible. The only time the Strawhats ever did that was against Oars, as I recall. If they did that now, I don't think Kizaru would perform well - not between Luffy, Zoro, Sanji and Jinbei.
His arms were mainly straight when he fought Rayleigh.
Considering he's not a good swordsman in the first place, and can overpower a master swordsman with pure speed, he doesn't need to bend his arms to get an upperhand in a sword duel.
Vista = skills, no power
Kizaru = no skills, power
His arms were mainly straight when he fought Rayleigh.
Considering he's not a good swordsman in the first place, and can overpower a master swordsman with pure speed, he doesn't need to bend his arms to get an upperhand in a sword duel.
Vista = skills, no power
Kizaru = no skills, power
They are literally bent that's how you use a sword lmfao you move them you don't keep straight arms
Hes not overpowering Ray though hes doing the opposite of what you're saying
Hes pressing him in an attacking stance
Showing his swordsmanship is actually really good
Yes, you need tons of plot armor to counter a swordsman with Luffy.
Katakuri's Mogura all over again. Remember what he did against it?
Nothing so Katakuri decided to drop it. Seems like Kizaru will drop his sword too so Luffy can do something.
Or we could let Zoro have a go at him and Kizaru doesnt need to nerf himself down?
Whatever Kizaru did at lightspeed, old rusty dude in retirement matched it all with the exact same speed.
Just because you can read his intentions doesnt mean you are able to keep up physically but Rayleigh did it nonetheless.
You have two options - Kizaru is not moving at light speed or old rusty dude is moving at lightspeed as well.
Which way shall you proceed?
- Luffy vs Kizaru
- Luffy vs Blackbeard or Shanks
- Luffy vs Kidd
- Luffy vs Akainu
- Luffy vs Im
- Luffy vs Blackbeard or Shanks
- Zoro vs Kuma
- Zoro vs Killer
- Zoro vs Shiryu or Beckman
- Zoro vs Fujitora
- Zoro vs Ghandi
- Zoro vs Mihawk (in placement of either Shiryu or Beckman)
No joke, I specifically have them at a final encounter at Lodestar and probably should have included them lol. It may not be as big as the other fights, but this is something i can definitely see, at least Luffy vs Kid since Zoro and Killer technically fought (though as Killer says, without his true weapons).
No joke, I specifically have them at a final encounter at Lodestar and probably should have included them lol. It may not be as big as the other fights, but this is something i can definitely see, at least Luffy vs Kid since Zoro and Killer technically fought (though as Killer says, without his true weapons).
Agreed. If Law loses to BB in this moment, it truly only leaves Luffy, Kid, BB and Shanks in the current running for OP (assuming Cross Guild doesnt have the intent, Mihawk doesnt seem to at least).
Having at least some payoff on that rivalry works. Hell, even a triple fight between the 3 would ultimately payoff the supernova storyline well. I am still very curious how Oda wants to tie it all up in the end. Someone would have to end Kid's ambition for PK, so if not anyone else, it must be Luffy.
-If we go with option one, then Kizaru overwhelmed a low-mid top tier swordsman with a non lightspeed crappy light sword.
This makes him PK+ if he actually wants to use his devil fruit to full effect.
-If we go with option 2, then Ray can travel at the speed of light like Kizaru does, which is not true.
Old and Rusty don't really change much, age is kinda bullshit in this manga. Ray went from High Top tier to Low-Mid top tier.
What makes sense is Rayleigh having top tier physicals, reaction speed and exceptional CoO to keep up with a lightspeed man, but is still huffing from overwhelming speed. If Vergo can travel faster than Shambles, then someone like Rayleigh should intercept Kizaru even if he's being overwhelmed lol
So he's not lightspeed in the literal sense, but his CoO, skills, top tier physicals and reaction speed allow him to block lightspeed attacks
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Buggy-senchou is only true final antagonist!
