We Have Severely Underestimated Kanki

Topi Jerami · Dec 16, 2022

What, so the whole "Riboku defeats Kanki badly" has already happened? Are you sure?
Honestly I kinda skimmed through Roumou chapters and don't really remember what happened there anymore. I will reread those chapters later.
But Gian? Is that really supposed to be "Kanki's big defeat"? Doesn't seem like it at all imo. Kanki willingly abandoned the castle and moved on with his next plan and Riboku just conquered an empty castle. I don't really buy event at Gian as Kanki being defeated.

So reading through the current chapters, I was always under the impression that Kanki's plan will fail and Riboku will win no matter how he pulls it. But is "Kanki's big defeat" really happened already?

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2022

@Shanks @Monet

Isn't Kanki supposed to lose at Hika? Yeah his defeat aren't in Roumou or Gian... I reread Roumou part, Roumou isn't really Kanki's defeat neither...

Shanks · Dec 16, 2022

Topi Jerami said:

I've read that quite long ago (i think during Shukai plains arc) and the loss there was actually in the form of losing big chunk of Qin army, that is first in Roumou and than around 80% balance in Gian encirclement.

So Qin's lost already took place. Now only thing left is Kanki himself. Though Hara want to make Kanki achieving something before that so it's kind of getting more and more interesting even though we know how everything took place in actuality.

Elder Lee Hung · Dec 16, 2022

Monet said:

No way,

Kanki’s historical defeat has got to be way more definitive than just Riboku’s encirclement.

Look at Gokei vs Hyou, Gokei exterminated 95k/100k of Duke Hyou’s troops but Duke Hyou still won the battle by taking Gokei’s head.

It’s not enough for Riboku to nearly exterminate Kanki’s army if Kanki is going to truly “defeat” Riboku here, Kanki’s impending defeat has yet to come I think. This is a huge hype moment for Kanki to be sure but we can’t count Riboku and Zhao out yet.

Monet · Dec 16, 2022

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung said:

OK
but what remains for kanki to lose ?!
we know shin moten will not die here and mostly their numpers will be shortend after thier current fight . maybe reach only 5k both or less .

only kanki head is what remains

so kanki losing his head is win for rbk yeah but if he didn't then nothing else rbk can damage kanki more than what already happend

about kanki death
hara mainly folloow the shiji
in shiji last mention of kanki is this battle but it didn't say he got killed or survive .
the seoond source hara take from say that kanki got killed at kantan siege by zhao .

so it depends on hara .

Elder Lee Hung · Dec 16, 2022

Monet said:

Hara deviates from history frequently. Heki historically was supposed to die against the Quanrong, and now look at Heki still alive and advancing his career 3 years later. Hara will deviate from history when the time calls for it and Heki is the perfect example of that.

Ouki and Oukotsu are also historically believed to be the same General, but Hara separated them because he was planning a specific archetype for Ouki. Rinshoujou and Chousha were also historically not even generals lol but in Kingdom they are of course Great Heavens equal to Renpa even though Renpa was historically the only true General among the three. And you can find other numerous examples of Hara deviating from history, these are just brief examples.

This is not a historical account, this is historical fiction based on conflicting historical accounts (though yes mainly the Shiji).

Hara will deviate from history when it’s appropriate, and Kanki is an example of that I think. There’s just too much buildup of him as an enemy of Shin, and I will not be surprised if Kanki and Shin end up having a major confrontation again somehow before the end of this battle. Hell for all we know, Shin is having beef with some of Kanki’s clan right at this very moment because they’re planing to kill some prisoners or some shit again idk lol. Anything can happen between now and Kanki’s defeat.

God Buggy · Dec 16, 2022

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung said:

I hope this Kanki vs Shin match happens in the future. Shin besting Kanki in a war...man, that version of Shin will be some monster lool.

Monet · Dec 16, 2022

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung said:

i don't mind that , but mostly he stick with history .
although i don't l ike hara going that way shin vs kanki.

nah not here not now, not in this stiuaion
if shin will clash with kanki at some it can't be here at all
kanki has done worse and worse, going against him now for some few of numpers is meh ( it's not about shin intelignce or mature , he is stupid but i meant about hara writing or for story writing,) they can't clash or fight for small matter like few numpers etc it when kanki have done worse , so if it's gonna happen it have to be about something which is not possible now maybe another arc

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2022

God Buggy said:

it's not exciting at all cuz we know shin is stronger
so you think katyoten will stand toe to toe with kanki ?!
:risitameh:

shin also rarely use his instinct .
this is why it's not intersting at all shin vs kanki as arc or battle .
and this why i think hara will not do it .

even if he brought moten and ohon with him vs kanki

Topi Jerami · Dec 16, 2022

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung said:

Major, can you confirm whether Kanki is historically supposed to fall right here, right now at Hika?
Roumou and Gian aren't supposed to be Kanki's defeat right? The 2 events don't feel like Kanki's personal defeat at all.

@Shanks

Elder Lee Hung · Dec 16, 2022

Monet said:

Shin vs Kanki will be great imo. Even though yes Shin would currently defeat Kanki in a duel let alone in the future, there is no reason for Kanki to fight Shin honorably nor is there a reason for Kanki to attempt to duel him directly.

Plus if Kanki becomes Yan’s premier general, Yan has a ton of mountain warriors and more than likely has some monstrous warriors serving underneath them so Hara can certainly pluck somebody out of the mountains who will give Shin a serious fight.

And besides, if Shin wants to become the greatest general ever, he’s got to do more than just become the best warrior lol, he’s going to have to be able to defeat tactical generals like Kanki as well.

And as for Shin’s instincts: if I am correct and Kanki is an ex slave like Shin, Shin may have a much easier time reading him than Riboku does.

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2022

Topi Jerami said:

No unfortunately lol, all the spoilers I read use Chinese names, and with context clues I can usually figure out which characters are which but I’m pretty hopeless when it comes to cities/places. So I have no clue when and where Kanki is supposed to fall other than the fact that it is in Northern Zhao where we are now.

I assume his defeat is imminent though.

God Buggy · Dec 16, 2022

Monet said:

What do you mean? Yes Shin would currently kick the crap out of Kanki in a 1vs1 duel between them but Kanki would kick the crap out of Shin in a war.

Defeating Kanki in a war is an incredibly tall order lmao.

Monet · Dec 16, 2022

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung said:

@Topi Jerami

in 233 shiji it stated that kanki defeated at Fei=Hika (it could between hika and gian as well ) but nothing about kanki death .

then

this all happend in the same year which is next year in the manga 232 bc

in 232 BC: Aristocratic Family of Zhao, Qin attacked a castle of Fan Wu(番吾/Jap name: Hango). Riboku manage to defend it against Qin.
Qin capture Roumou in 232 BC.

Chapter 81 (Memoir on Li Mu) : (...) Three years later, QIN attacked P'u-wu 番吾 (Hango), Riboku attacked and defeated the QIN army, and held off Han and Wei to the south. (...)
__
this above is it's the same attack as first on one hango not new one
but it add that wei and han attacked zhao from the south in 232 as well .

So in summary
1-current year 233 kanki got defeated at hika
next year Qin attack Roumou and Hango but it fail to capture Hango
Also wei & han attack zhao from south as well at same year .

___
keep in mind it history didn't name the general who attacked hango or Roumou
so it's up to hara
butmost likelly it's ousen at least with Roumou.

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung said:

it's not about honor
hsu has no chance to kill or defeat kanki at all not even theplot can help them .
you saw how he played with rbk , kosho , genpo and kisha !?
it's only acceptable is one shin become GG and ten become gg strategic lvl
which is not any time soon .
but now or next year nah it's not possible at all .
when we reach time where shin & ten leads armies at that point it seems possible .

God Buggy said:

i aggree with you lol

Rumble · Dec 16, 2022

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung said:

It was easier for Ri Boku to escape, but Duke Hyou cornering him in the first place is much more impressive than Kan Ki's ambush.

He accomplished that without the element of surprise and while Ri Boku was actively maneuvering against him.

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung said:

The only reason Ri Boku was in a mindset to be ambushed in the first place is because Gian had already been taken right under his nose, in which Kan Ki had no involvement.

There is no Zenou clan anymore, it's just Zenou now, and he's severely compromised and eating arrows, having already been driven back once.

The Shu Ma clan was never big to begin with and Shu Ma has already died. Given the 5K Kaine Unit's success against them and the fact more of Zhao troops are converging on their position, the Shu Ma are likely to go the way of the Zenou clan sooner than later, thus leaving Kan Ki with the loss of yet another elite unit.

If you consider the latest chapter states the Zhao are responding faster than Kan Ki expected, I dunno, man, seems to me like Kan Ki's ambush is crumbling as quickly as it fell.

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung said:

Ri Boku isn't trying to escape. As the chapter explains, though he didn't anticipate an ambush to happen, his army was nevertheless set up in a manner to quickly regroup in the event of an attack. The horn has already been sounded. Reinforcements are coming to Ri Boku. It's time to hunker down, priotise defence, and hold out until enough reinforcements arrive.

It would be strategically unsound to try and escape in enemy territory, they'd be exposing their backs and taking the risk of more of Kan Ki's allies and tricks ahead of them.

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung said:

Kan Ki does not have 20K, he has ~10K at most, the bulk of which made up of HSA and GKA.

Shanks said:

C'mon, bruh.

I'm really beginning to question how much y'all actually pay attention to following this manga.

Elder Lee Hung · Dec 16, 2022

Rumble said:

@Shanks yeah my man you have to do better, don’t underestimate Kochou like that. Only he and Ousen realized that it was the Sun Bin tactic being used.

Furthermore, I don’t think Kanki even knew he was using the Sun Bin tactic, he probably just figured he could hide his warriors among the advancing Zhao without them noticing because of the carnage. Kanki probably had no idea this strategy was used before. Kanki is just that smart lol.

Bullet · Dec 16, 2022

Rumble said:

I don't know if it's anti Riboku hate or Ousen/Kanki wank but i've been seeing some low quality takes over here despite the kingdom section being consistently one of the best discussion sections in this forum
Forget this battle which hasn't even finished yet, people are continuosly making nonsense claims regarding the Gyou arc which if anything was an absolute embarrassment on the part of Ousen at the shukai plains
We'll see where this arc goes from here but I'll need to make a thread later probably to address some of these stuff
Riboku beat Ousen 4 times at Shukai plains and he was only saved by the young trio

Rumble · Dec 16, 2022

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung said:

Lambasting Ko Chou in general just undermines Kan Ki's victory, so I really don't understand the logic in doing that if one is a massive Kan Ki fan, but then again, I'm not seeing much logic from that crowd to begin with.

In all likelihood, Kan Ki hasn't got a clue who Sun Bin is and would respond with "Who's that?" if prompted.

I've dismissed Ri Boku's take on Kan Ki's weakness as being only half correct and chalked it up to Hara's usual penchant for characters being hyperbolic or exaggerating in dialogue.

While Kan Ki lacks a formal education in strategy, and that is undeniably a disadvantage against well read experts, he is nevertheless a rare genius of warfare (and likely a natural Hybrid Type like Ren Pa).

If you consider just how much Kyou Kai has naturally developed her strategic acumen, then it's obvious a genius like Kan Ki will have undoubtedly picked up more than just the basics through observation and osmosis alone in his lengthy career.

Monet · Dec 16, 2022

Bullet said:

I don't know if it's anti Riboku hate or Ousen/Kanki wank but i've been seeing some low quality takes over here despite the kingdom section being consistently one of the best discussion sections in this forum
Forget this battle which hasn't even finished yet, people are continuosly making nonsense claims regarding the Gyou arc which if anything was an absolute embarrassment on the part of Ousen at the shukai plains
We'll see where this arc goes from here but I'll need to make a thread later probably to address some of these stuff
Riboku beat Ousen 4 times at Shukai plains and he was only saved by the young trio

the only perfect part of gyou arc is ytw the rest has more cons than pros

Rumble · Dec 16, 2022

Bullet said:

Bit of column A, bit of column B.

My position on those three is clear:

Ri Boku is, has been and will remain the best.

Ou Sen is a close second.

Kan Ki is very good and holds the best feat in the manga thus far, but he is nowhere near as good as his fanboys make him out to be. I regard him as the weakest of this generation of the 6GG for multiple reasons that I may get into later, but it boils down to this: Kan Ki's biggest feats have all required extremely heavy lifting and facilitating by multiple 6GG tier talents (and sometimes overtly by the plot, as seen at Eikyuu).

More than that, however, Kan Ki's biggest advantage has been that he's not constrained by the limitations of his contemporaries. Kan Ki holds no loyalty to king, country, or even his own subordinates. He will cross lines others simply will not/cannot cross, and he doesn't care if his methods of warfare are unsustainable to Qin's interest.

It is because Kan Ki doesn't care pyrrhic victories will hurt Qin's war machine in the long term or about the lives of anyone outside of his circle that he can be so effective. He's basically playing the same games without adhering to the same rules. As @Great General Kanki pointed out in the other thread: Ri Boku would never have to fear a general like Tou torturing and massacring civilians and prisoners of war.

So yeah, as Shin put it, Kan Ki is a talented bastard, but he's not as good as he gets praised for being. There's a lot of credit to go around for Koku You, Eikyuu, and now the Gian Campaign, but as is always the case with Kan Ki, his fans will insist he deserves all the credit.

Bullet · Dec 16, 2022

Rumble said:

I guess not strategy but maybe battle formations is a better way to look at it
Kanki always has to find some insane onorthodox tactics to kill the enemy leader.
the enemy general is telling his archers to get into this position, the cavalry to flank them etc.. while Kanki would have no idea how to counter that and has to hide his soldiers, change clothes or whatever to be able to set up an ambush just like a bandit would

Post automatically merged: Dec 16, 2022

Rumble said:

Pretty much
Kanki takes insane risks because he has no loyalty or care for his men and it has been working until now thanks to other factors
In Eikyu Shin arrived early, saved Ou hon who had come up with a plan and miraculously won the battle which made Kanki's sun bin successful, if that didn't happen he only would have gotten 80k men killed for no reason. In this battle he had nothing to counter Riboku with and had to bail with a couple hundred people and if not for Shin saving his and Mouten's unit which made the capture of Gian and thus this ambush possible Kanki would have gotten hundreds of thousands of men killed with nothing to show for it.

Elder Lee Hung · Dec 16, 2022

Bullet said:

Every so often this sub goes ape shit lol, Ousen being one of those characters who makes people quite forgetful.

I wouldn’t say Ousen was an embarrassment, in fact I thought he was quite impressive at Shukai Plains, but by his own admission Riboku had him beat as far as tactics go.

Rumble · Dec 16, 2022

Bullet said:

This why the plot armour complaints regarding Ri Boku are so funny to me.

Strategy is broken down and explained.

Not only does Kan Ki's psychological warfare "just work", he's had a 100% success rate with it. Even in the most dire of situations.

The way I perceive Kan Ki, he is perfectly capable of using and winning through conventional strategy. If he dedicated but a year of his time to study, he'd probably be able to plan entire campaigns on a level that would impress Ou Sen, SHK, Ri Boku, etc.

The only reason Kan Ki doesn't do any of that, is because he doesn't want to. It's not who he is. As made clear by his flashback, Kan Ki has a complex around power. What is more powerful than taking the heads of your enemies?

If Kan Ki is indeed an Instinctual Type (or Hybrid), his animal motif is not a lion like Duke Hyou's or a spider like Kei Sha, but a hyena. Cruel, deliberate and always smiling in the face of his enemies.

We Have Severely Underestimated Kanki

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