General & Others Did Akainu win against Kuzan in legit way ?

[SkySanji]

Before we endlessly run around this argument, let's take this and apply it to the Kuzan fight, how exactly does it help you here to prove Akainu has any devil fruit superiority over Aokiji?

Dodging the question lmfao, Akainu never said he consumes fire, just that he burns it, obviously the ability to burn something is dependant on temperature.

I repeat. Fire is not Magma. Magma is solid molten rock. Aokiji has the ability to cool down the temperature, not create ice. He instantly cools down the temperature of the Magma and at a FAR greater speed than Akainu has ever shown to be able to produce Magma.

The fuck are you even talking about? Aokiji's ability is to produce, control and turn into ice, he can probably cool things down with the ambient temperature of that ice as well like how Crocodile can absorb the moisture of things with his sand but his primary ability is ice.

As for him cooling things down faster, that's cool and all but whether or not he could do so to magma is baseless, on the contrary though we've seen numerous times that Akainu can instantly and easily vaporize Aokiji's ice.

That's what has transpired in their fight, endless stalling caused by no devil fruit superiority of either side. Again, that's complete headcanon.

Yes it is headcanon.

It is a hundred times more valid than yours because the Manga panel directly shows how both abilities split up the island 50 to 50, it does not take a genius to understand the obvious implications it's supposed to give. Only a die hard Akainu hater can debate this.

It doesn't though...it shows the end result, not how it came to be.

Again, Akainu could have a superior devil fruit but Aokiji could compensate in other ways that make the fight last as long as it did.

I can flip this on its head, give me a confirmation that the Hie Hie no mi isn't superior to the Magu Magu. Aokiji actually had the advantage all along.

Asking me to prove a negative...jesus.

Funadamentally it comes down to one thing, there are numerous examples of Aokiji's ice being inferior to Akainu's magma and even Ace's fire which itself is inferior to Akainu's magma, on the other hand, there are zero examples of Aokiji's ice being superior to Akainu's magma.

That's really shame. You have nothing to support your delusions while i have the Manga panels.

Here another one

I don't have a clue as to what you think those scans are proving lol

 

[IsaziSempi]

Well I allways believed Akainu pulled a dirty move but the way Oda has portrayed Akainu after the timeskip I don't really see a rematch between the two happening. A part of me wonders if he even really lost a leg and another part of me wonders if the fight wasn't for FA position but rather to go on a super secret mission to kill blackbeard. Aokiji may have won.

 

[MarineHQ]

Dodging the question lmfao, Akainu never said he consumes fire, just that he burns it, obviously the ability to burn something is dependant on temperature.

Not dodging anything, it has no practical use to the debate that we're having. Whether Akainu's temperature was hotter than Ace's does and would never affect Akainu's fight against Kuzan in any way.

The fuck are you even talking about? Aokiji's ability is to produce, control and turn into ice, he can probably cool things down with the ambient temperature of that ice as well like how Crocodile can absorb the moisture of things with his sand but his primary ability is ice.

Aokiji's ability is to cool down the temperature, not create ice blocks. That's how he freezes people to the bone. Thinking that Kuzan creates a bunch of Ice is a complete misinterpretation of his power.

As for him cooling things down faster, that's cool and all but whether or not he could do so to magma is baseless, on the contrary though we've seen numerous times that Akainu can instantly and easily vaporize Aokiji's ice.

We have seen it, it's evident by the aftermath of Punk Hazard. Had Akainu's ability been the absolute superior ability there would have been no split island. The battle wouldn't have raged on for 10 days AND MOST IMPORTANTLY Akainu wouldn't have wounds on his body, how are you explaining that the guy with complete devil fruit superior is damaged to such a degree that he has wounds all over hia body according to Kuzan himself ?

Yes it is headcanon.

No it isn't.

It doesn't though...it shows the end result, not how it came to be.

Again, Akainu could have a superior devil fruit but Aokiji could compensate in other ways that make the fight last as long as it did.

It does. The how it came to be is explained by the result. When the result is an island completely and evenly split in half 50/50 the "how it came to be" is that they completely stalled each other further reinforced by the battle taking 10 days.

Aokiji also could've had the superior Devil fruit but since Akainu is the superior fighter and Haki user, he managed to muscle through wit that.

Asking me to prove a negative...jesus.

Never was a negative, you just want it to be one.

Funadamentally it comes down to one thing, there are numerous examples of Aokiji's ice being inferior to Akainu's magma and even Ace's fire which itself is inferior to Akainu's magma, on the other hand, there are zero examples of Aokiji's ice being superior to Akainu's magma.

Again the interaction between Akainu and Ace's abilities stands in no relation to that of Kuzan.

No there aren't. Akainu is merely increasing the heat of the Water that Aokiji froze. If Aokiji stands there and continously freezes, guess what, it would continue to stall each other for ever just like their fight lmao

Not sure what's so hard to understand. @ZenZu has given the gist of it from the start.

don't have a clue as to what you think those scans are proving lol

It's direct prove how equal their abilities are and were. You pretending like you don't get that is a different matter.

 

[IsaziSempi]

Reminder that magma is a tier above ice, we know fire and ice cancels out each other, and magma in OP world is above fire. So it's either Kuzan is that impressive due to matchup disadvantages, or Sakazuki holding back.

Magma may be stronger than Ice but it's not a tier above.

Smoke- smoker
Fire -ace
Magma-akainu

Breeze- maybe dragon
Snow- monet
Ice- aokiji

No way it's not the top tier because Aokiji froze an entire ocean with it.

Unless it's actually
Smoke- smoker
Heat- oven
Fire- ace
Magma- akainu

 

[SakazOuki]

Dodging the question lmfao, Akainu never said he consumes fire, just that he burns it, obviously the ability to burn something is dependant on temperature.

Here's the proper translation
"Akainu: Are you allowing your Logia nature to make you a little too overconfident? / You are mere "fire"... whilst I am "magma", with the power to consume even fire itself!! // My ability is a natural enemy of your own, boy!!!"

 

[Nidai_Kitetsu]

Not convinced, I dont buy that magu magu had no advantage over hie hie

 

[SkySanji]

Not dodging anything, it has no practical use to the debate that we're having. Whether Akainu's temperature was hotter than Ace's does and would never affect Akainu's fight against Kuzan in any way.

It affects it massively, if Akainu's magma is of a higher temperature than Ace's fire (which it is) then that means Akainu can automatically do at least what Ace could and more, and we specifically see that Ace, even though he's ridiculously weaker than Aokiji, can stalemate and even overpower his ice.

Aokiji's ability is to cool down the temperature, not create ice blocks. That's how he freezes people to the bone. Thinking that Kuzan creates a bunch of Ice is a complete misinterpretation of his power.

Right because "cooling down temperature" is totally a naturally occuring element lmao...you understand that logia are by default required to be a natural element right? Manipulating temperature or whatever you're saying isn't even a tangible thing, it's a concept or force, whereas ice is naturally occurring. And don't bother bringing up Blackbeard, he's specifically noted to be an exception.

We have seen it, it's evident by the aftermath of Punk Hazard. Had Akainu's ability been the absolute superior ability there would have been no split island. The battle wouldn't have raged on for 10 days AND MOST IMPORTANTLY Akainu wouldn't have wounds on his body, how are you explaining that the guy with complete devil fruit superior is damaged to such a degree that he has wounds all over hia body according to Kuzan himself ?

I already explained this to you, Aokiji possibly compensates for his devil fruit disadvantage with something else such as haki etc.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

It does. The how it came to be is explained by the result. When the result is an island completely and evenly split in half 50/50 the "how it came to be" is that they completely stalled each other further reinforced by the battle taking 10 days.

Because overall Akainu and Aokiji were damn near equal, but just because two characters are equal overall doesn't mean they have to be equal in the same attributes.

Aokiji also could've had the superior Devil fruit but since Akainu is the superior fighter and Haki user, he managed to muscle through wit that.

That's entirely possible yes, too bad that there's far more supporting that argument in Aokiji's case than Akainu's.

Never was a negative, you just want it to be one.

Again the interaction between Akainu and Ace's abilities stands in no relation to that of Kuzan.

It entirely does though, because what is most important here is temperature, Akainu having the superior fruit with superior temperature can do at least what Ace can against Aokiji and significantly much more, and that's with disregarding how much weaker Ace was than Aokiji.

No there aren't. Akainu is merely melting the Water that Aokiji froze. If Aokiji stands there and continously freezes, guess what, it would continue to stall each other for ever just like their fight lmao

That's just more headcanon

Not sure what's so hard to understand. ZenZu has given the gist of it from the start.

ZenZu is clueless lmao, he believes Kizaru > Aokiji which is more than enough for me to automatically disregard his opinion.

It's direct prove how equal their abilities are and were. You pretending like you don't get that is a different matter.

That's your interpretation, not a fact.

Post automatically merged: Apr 20, 2023

Here's the proper translation
"Akainu: Are you allowing your Logia nature to make you a little too overconfident? / You are mere "fire"... whilst I am "magma", with the power to consume even fire itself!! // My ability is a natural enemy of your own, boy!!!"

This is Viz

Viz > you

And you're wrong anyway, the Japanese used is 焼き尽くすwhich means "burn completely" or "burn to nothing"

Even if "consume" was mentioned which is possible, it's a result from the burning, so my point hasn't changed

 

[RoronoaZorro]

Iirc there are pages where Akainu's meteor shower tore through the ice landscape, in Marineford. It may have gravity advantage, but if both elements are equal, the molten rocks should've just landed there.

Also, irl is fire > magma, in OP case Oda specifically made magma > fire (unsure whether it's only the DF or the byproduct elements too).

 

[Kiiro]

Yeah, Akainu won.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Here's the proper translation
"Akainu: Are you allowing your Logia nature to make you a little too overconfident? / You are mere "fire"... whilst I am "magma", with the power to consume even fire itself!! // My ability is a natural enemy of your own, boy!!!"

I believe this is the official (VIZ) translation.
Also this debate about Akainu countering Kuzan makes no fucking sense.
If it was that easy they wouldn't have went extreme diff for 10 days.

 

[pg13]

Yes Akainu packed him up Extreme Diff

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

Reminder that magma is a tier above ice, we know fire and ice cancels out each other, and magma in OP world is above fire. So it's either Kuzan is that impressive due to matchup disadvantages, or Sakazuki holding back.

It's the other way around. Aokiji held the devil fruit advantage. He's not an Ice Human, he's a freeze human. Magma is a liquid, and therefore can be cooled and frozen. In theory, Aokiji can reach temperatures close to absolute zero, and without restriction can probably hit it. How hot can Akainus magma get?

 

[Gol D. Roger]

He won fairly. That's why Kuzan can't get over it.

 

[Cozy Sofa]

3 points and the last one is the most important one

- Akainu is a better fighter by a small margin

- Akainu had the DF advantage

- Akainu fought for what he believed in. Kuzan was very determined but he didn't fight for himself and what he believed in, he fought for what Aokiji the Marine believes in.

 

[BlackLegFring]

Kinda sad that this is still being questioned at this point. Punk Hazard itself already put it to rest.

 

[Drachenblut]

I think somehow akainu was "unfair", because of his strong personal beliefs, which aokiji lacks.

 

[Peppercat]

This chapter 1081 show Kuzan is in bad mood . Probably he is angry because he lost to Akainu . Have talk with Blackbeard pirates.
‘And froze the girl first which it is theorized as Akainu daughter .

‘’Did it convince you that Akainu win against Kuzan in fair match with no hostages, cheap tricks ?

Very sure it was fair. Akainu just has a natural advantage. I wouldn't look too deep into freezing Hibari when he froze a good number of people.

 

[JoNdule]

I'm not gonna rule out the other option

But I hope Akainu won fair and square

 

[MarineHQ]

It affects it massively, if Akainu's magma is of a higher temperature than Ace's fire (which it is) then that means Akainu can automatically do at least what Ace could and more, and we specifically see that Ace, even though he's ridiculously weaker than Aokiji, can stalemate and even overpower his ice.

That isn't true in any way and you know. This is the third time I'm repeating this and you continue to refuse to accept this. Magma is solid molten rock while Fire isn't. It is not possible for Kuzan to freeze an ever burning flame unless Ace deliberately stops using his ability and lets Kuzan freeze him to the bone.
Kuzan cools down the temperature of the Magma it solidifies and becomes completely useless, that's what's happening. You're desperately trying to bring any Akainu > Ace scaling into this when it has nothing to do with Kuzan.

Right because "cooling down temperature" is totally a naturally occuring element lmao...you understand that logia are by default required to be a natural element right? Manipulating temperature or whatever you're saying isn't even a tangible thing, it's a concept or force, whereas ice is naturally occurring. And don't bother bringing up Blackbeard, he's specifically noted to be an exception.

Way to go the disprove your own argument lmao, yes, Aokiji does indeed not have the Ice Ice fruit. As i said he brings down the temperature of basically anything he wants. The ability to further freeze people right to the bone is prove of that and he does it instantaneous meaning Akainu is fucked here. He can never even produce half as much Magma as Kuzan can instantly render useless, truly a devil fruit matchup advantage for Kuzan.

already explained this to you, Aokiji possibly compensates for his devil fruit disadvantage with something else such as haki etc.

You have stated an opinion and i have stayed mine. Akainu compensated for the fact that his fruit was useless with either his Haki or superior stamina.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Because overall Akainu and Aokiji were damn near equal, but just because two characters are equal overall doesn't mean they have to be equal in the same attributes.

You're being disingenuous on purpose now. What are the Admirals known for ?
What abilities do they use ?

The Admirals are predominantly known for being carried by their OP fruits, Aokiji and Akainu are no different. There exists no solid Haki feat that suggests that they've had abilities and fighting styles up there sleeve that decided the battle, that's all headcanon. The Manga states differently. At all times were Akainu and Aokiji using their fruits to fight.

So the "but Kuzan had something else..." take is completely headcanon reinforced by nothing.

That's entirely possible yes, too bad that there's far more supporting that argument in Aokiji's case than Akainu's.

The state of PH directly confirms that this isn't the case. Its already proven that the Magu Magu and Hie Hie completely stalled each other.

entirely does though, because what is most important here is temperature, Akainu having the superior fruit with superior temperature can do at least what Ace can against Aokiji and significantly much more, and that's with disregarding how much weaker Ace was than Aokiji.

It does not even remotely relate. I told you that Kuzan brings down the temperature. Whether it goes from 800-1300 there is absolutely no difference for Kuzan especially when what he freezes is a solid material like the Magma was.

That's just more headcanon

That's just a fact.

That's your interpretation, not a fact.

It is absolutely a fact. The Island was split perfectly and evenly in half, had Akainu's fruit been superior that wouldn't have been the case. Devil fruit superiority ends like Akainu vs Ace, one side overwhelmingly loses and mind you that the BBP's confirmed how strong Ace is without fruit. Even his high base stats couldn't change anything against Akainu as he is a DF reliant fighter and thus utterly helpless. Kuzan was totally different, he completely equalled or even had the DF advantage against Akainu.

 

[Just a member]

As far as we know it was an extreme diff fight for both but in the end the one who won was Akainu. Then Oda could play something like "in truth Aokiji is a spy for the WG" and so the whole fight was a facade (and that would be lame) or maybe Aokiji won and orchestrated the whole plan (which is also weird in a way). I don't think that if the fight is really legit like it seems 2 comrades would resort to use hostages or other sheningans.