Controversial Is Katakuri v Luffy still the best fight Post-TS?
- Thread starter MUUGEN
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Luffy vs Doffy was not it in the anime lol. That fight was highly controversial when it came out for a number of reasons, notably, very rough animation and changes from the manga that only further hurt the pacing of the fight.
It still is highly controversial due to how poorly paced the climax of the fight is. The extended clash was fine conceptually, but really lasted way too long, and the production was nowhere near strong enough at the time to make it engaging.
It still is highly controversial due to how poorly paced the climax of the fight is. The extended clash was fine conceptually, but really lasted way too long, and the production was nowhere near strong enough at the time to make it engaging.
H
I just started to read manga when pandemics hit on. Idk about Luffy vs Doflamingo difference on anime except the final "clash". But still it was the best post timeskip fight until King vs Zoro. The animation is the same about Doflamingo vs Luffy and Katakuri vs Luffy. One Piece style. Wano destroyed that style by the premise of improving art work. Which makes no sense since you are filled with so many light effects that you can't barely see the art work.
The extended clash at the end sucks but still is way better than Luffy vs Katakuri shit that makes no sense. G4 Boundman surpassed Doflamingo. Snakeman never surpassed Katakuri.
The extended clash at the end sucks but still is way better than Luffy vs Katakuri shit that makes no sense. G4 Boundman surpassed Doflamingo. Snakeman never surpassed Katakuri.
This makes it sound like you just didn't watch the fight in the anime.
Okay, ignoring the fact that by the sounds of it you didn't actually watch the fight, you still haven't answered WHAT THE HELL IS ONE PIECE STYLE ANIMATION!?
The most notable animators on both those fights are still kicking, and have also made contributions to Luffy vs Kaido for example.
Naotoshi Shida and Yoshikazu Tomita were the most recognizable names from Doffy vs Luffy, and have worked on both Luffy vs Katakuri in 870, and hell, both of them worked on 1072.
Masami Mori, a prodigious animator who did a massive scene for 870, the Luffy vs Snakeman fight, but not Luffy vs Doffy, made massive contributions to Luffy vs Kaido in 1072. Their contributions in 1072 were not only more extensive, but didn't have any of the visual flair that you've been critical of in your prior posts. There were no auras or anything in their scenes. Hell, I don't even think he used any impact frames this episode(from memory).
1072 even featured the return of freaking Ryo Onishi to the TV anime, and he hadn't worked on the TV anime since Sabadoy, and he is still animating with the same natural sense of weightiness and in the same art style from literally a decade ago.
Besides the fact your blind, I would say the animation is just worlds superior to what it was back then. WE LITERALLY GOT SHINYA OHIRA ON ONE PIECE. I don't think anyone thought that would ever happen.
Again, I don't have any understanding where you get the idea that the series was better animated before Wano. Even by the most cursory measurement of animation, number of frames, Wano episodes, particularly notable Wano episodes use a monstrous number more frames because there is more motion and movement(animation) in the episodes.
Thats more of a story thing, but even then, I think you missed the narrative point of Luffy vs Katakuri. Luffy only surpassed Katakuri at the very end where after an immense effort from both of them, only he had the will power to keep standing.
Okay, ignoring the fact that by the sounds of it you didn't actually watch the fight, you still haven't answered WHAT THE HELL IS ONE PIECE STYLE ANIMATION!?
The most notable animators on both those fights are still kicking, and have also made contributions to Luffy vs Kaido for example.
Naotoshi Shida and Yoshikazu Tomita were the most recognizable names from Doffy vs Luffy, and have worked on both Luffy vs Katakuri in 870, and hell, both of them worked on 1072.
Masami Mori, a prodigious animator who did a massive scene for 870, the Luffy vs Snakeman fight, but not Luffy vs Doffy, made massive contributions to Luffy vs Kaido in 1072. Their contributions in 1072 were not only more extensive, but didn't have any of the visual flair that you've been critical of in your prior posts. There were no auras or anything in their scenes. Hell, I don't even think he used any impact frames this episode(from memory).
1072 even featured the return of freaking Ryo Onishi to the TV anime, and he hadn't worked on the TV anime since Sabadoy, and he is still animating with the same natural sense of weightiness and in the same art style from literally a decade ago.
Besides the fact your blind, I would say the animation is just worlds superior to what it was back then. WE LITERALLY GOT SHINYA OHIRA ON ONE PIECE. I don't think anyone thought that would ever happen.
Again, I don't have any understanding where you get the idea that the series was better animated before Wano. Even by the most cursory measurement of animation, number of frames, Wano episodes, particularly notable Wano episodes use a monstrous number more frames because there is more motion and movement(animation) in the episodes.
Thats more of a story thing, but even then, I think you missed the narrative point of Luffy vs Katakuri. Luffy only surpassed Katakuri at the very end where after an immense effort from both of them, only he had the will power to keep standing.
H
Your sentence makes no sense.
You never asked what is One Piece Style Animation. But it is the style we saw since episode 1 up to the last episode before Wano. Wano animation changed EVERYTHING. Not only art work improvement.
Blind will be the Japan kids who watch that insane amout of light effects of Wano animation.
Like I said but you ignore because it doesn't fit your argument, the art work improved. The problem is the light effects and auras that are not One Piece style.
Luffy didn't surpassed Katakuri at any point of their fight. Stop that fallacy of "you didn't understand" you One Piece tards always play that card when someone doesn't like one thing about the manga. Katakuri was the last to go down in their final clash and the first to get up. He won. Not Luffy. He just chose to let Luffy escape with the premise of fighting him again later on.
You never asked what is One Piece Style Animation. But it is the style we saw since episode 1 up to the last episode before Wano. Wano animation changed EVERYTHING. Not only art work improvement.
Blind will be the Japan kids who watch that insane amout of light effects of Wano animation.
Like I said but you ignore because it doesn't fit your argument, the art work improved. The problem is the light effects and auras that are not One Piece style.
Luffy didn't surpassed Katakuri at any point of their fight. Stop that fallacy of "you didn't understand" you One Piece tards always play that card when someone doesn't like one thing about the manga. Katakuri was the last to go down in their final clash and the first to get up. He won. Not Luffy. He just chose to let Luffy escape with the premise of fighting him again later on.
There were no stakes in Condom-Boy vs Fraudo.
In short,that thing was: Condom-Boy being a sorrow loser and recovering like magic no matter how much damage he took every time he was defeated and gaining free power ups from it, Fraudo being a horrible leader and getting distracted with fights while his henchmen and empire were getting destroyed from under his nose and he never seemed to give a damn about it,Lolda shoving down our throats that Shitty Country and its population of wimps deserved to be saved at any cost,and Fraudo ending up as a pathetic excuse for a character and one of the shittiest villains ever created.
Condom-Boy's fans are the only people who pretend that this clusterfuck was good.
@Nidai_Kitetsu @ZenZu @Fujishiro @MUUGEN @nik87 @Veku @BigAmmi @pg13 @EmperorKinyagi
In short,that thing was: Condom-Boy being a sorrow loser and recovering like magic no matter how much damage he took every time he was defeated and gaining free power ups from it, Fraudo being a horrible leader and getting distracted with fights while his henchmen and empire were getting destroyed from under his nose and he never seemed to give a damn about it,Lolda shoving down our throats that Shitty Country and its population of wimps deserved to be saved at any cost,and Fraudo ending up as a pathetic excuse for a character and one of the shittiest villains ever created.
Condom-Boy's fans are the only people who pretend that this clusterfuck was good.
@Nidai_Kitetsu @ZenZu @Fujishiro @MUUGEN @nik87 @Veku @BigAmmi @pg13 @EmperorKinyagi
Luffy’s fight against Kata and even Kaido hand the best art style and choreography that’s what I base on when it comes to fights the most. Furthermore, let’s not pretend Zoro got a free PU aka CoC and in a matter of minutes got a second PU that is AdvCoC. Nevertheless, in OP hand to hand combat is the best when it comes to style while sword fights are the worst.
The fact you don't know about the differences between the fights in the anime and manga despite the fact there are a few notable ones makes it sound like you didn't watch the full fight.
This makes literally zero sense.
One Piece has never really had a single animation style. Even if you want to look at it from a more overarching long form perspective, there have been several significant visual changes that have occurred throughout the series.
From the soft designs of Noboru Koizumi which dominated the first 200 episodes, the sharper take on those designs opted by Katsumi Ishizuka took over the aesthetic of the series from pretty much Enies Lobby to Thriller Bark. After that, we had Kazuya Hisada's fairly standard character designs take over for the next 10 years pretty much.
Even then though, in that time you had the visual experimentation of movie 6 with its looser character designs and animation, which was adopted by Naoki Tate on the TV anime and even in One Piece movie 9. And there is a world of difference between Masayuki Sato's, the movie character designer chosen by Oda himself, take on the characters in the films, and Kazuya Hisada's designs.
And thats also ignoring the rise of some animators on the TV anime that dramatically began to improve the quality of the action animation between Thriller Bark and Marineford. You had animators like Yoshikazu Tomita, Naotoshi Shida, Ryo Onishi, Kenji Kuroyangai, Kenichi Fujisawa, Yukihiro Urata, Hiromi Ishigami as well as Naoki Tate and Katsumi Ishizuka(and more) setting new standards for action animation in the series that completely blew the first 300 episodes. These animators brought actual movement to a series that had previously been incredibly reliant on the most conservative animation possible.
The reason why a lot of the previous post time skip arcs feel a bit visually stagnant is because the staff growth that occurred between Thriller Bark and Marineford dramatically slowed down. A lot of those big name talents moved onto other series, with only a few remaining behind. The show would occassionally get a big name like Takeshi Nishino in for something like Dressrosa, but these stays tended to be short lived, and sadly weren't helped by the shows compositing completely stagnanting to look as flat and lifeless as possible, completely killing the atmosphere in tons of potentially great scenes.
My point is, the visual style of the show has always been changing and evolving. Sadly, a lot of times, not for the better. People actively used to meme on how bad One Piece looks in comparison to its contemporaries, and they wouldn't have been completely wrong.
One Piece didn't have many if at all, consistently high quality episodes in terms of animation for the most part.
This only really began to change late Dressrosa during the Katakuri fight, where the action animation began to become more consistent, and there began to be more consistently solid action episodes, before reaching a great mile stone in episode 870, Luffy vs Snakeman. Episode 870 was a massive milestone for the series at the time. It was by far the most production and animation intensive episode we'd ever seen from the series up till that point and felt truly special.
That was till Wano.
In Wano, it wasn't just the art consistency that arguably was improved. The show went from having a small rotation of fairly consistent talents, to just having a growing and immense wealth of incredibly talented animators who would fairly consistently pop in to animate on the series. Tons of fresh animators have managed to grow and advance significantly in Wano. Tu Yong Ce, a chinese animator who fully joined the team in WCI, rose the ranks from being a fantastic key animator to being a chief animation director, and has also been experimenting with storyboarding. Katsumi Ishizuka, a key animator and animation director, has moved onto storyboarding key moments of episodes. Talents like Henry Thurlow and Honehone who were mainly key animators, have been given storyboarding and direction opportunities. This experimentation with talent is something that wasn't prevelant at any point prior in the series and the anime has benefitted massively as a result.
Wano is not really more flashy than other major action anime out there. This statement to me suggests you just aren't very familiar with what other franchises are putting out.
By light effects, you often just mean having good compositing, which is incredibly sad because One Piece was infamous for how shit its compositing was before Wano.
One Piece has never had a single style, and the series adopting more modern animators and animation styles is something that has been desperately needed.
Without doing this, the anime would only have kept stagnating like it had between Fishman Island and Dressrosa, where the production of the series was a complete mess and the studio wasn't as focused on the anime.
My point is ONE PIECE NEVER HAD A SINGLE STYLE. Its a series thats visuals have always been evolving or stagnating over time depending on the staff involved or production circumstances, and One Piece isn't a stranger to more experimental or abstract art styles. Again, look at movie 6 or movie 9 or any Naoki Tate episode as prove of that.
Acting as if One Piece was ever particularly uniform in terms of animation is silly.
Luffy actually woke up before him. We see Katakuri is lying down still when Luffy gets out of the hole.
And Katakuri was finished. Luffy wasn't.
Katakuri chose to make the fight even, but he lost to Luffy. He may have been the first on his feet(not saying he was awake first), but he couldn't keep fighting while Luffy could.
Walking over to Luffy was literally all he could do, he was at his limit. While Luffy could still move if he wanted to.
This makes literally zero sense.
One Piece has never really had a single animation style. Even if you want to look at it from a more overarching long form perspective, there have been several significant visual changes that have occurred throughout the series.
From the soft designs of Noboru Koizumi which dominated the first 200 episodes, the sharper take on those designs opted by Katsumi Ishizuka took over the aesthetic of the series from pretty much Enies Lobby to Thriller Bark. After that, we had Kazuya Hisada's fairly standard character designs take over for the next 10 years pretty much.
Even then though, in that time you had the visual experimentation of movie 6 with its looser character designs and animation, which was adopted by Naoki Tate on the TV anime and even in One Piece movie 9. And there is a world of difference between Masayuki Sato's, the movie character designer chosen by Oda himself, take on the characters in the films, and Kazuya Hisada's designs.
And thats also ignoring the rise of some animators on the TV anime that dramatically began to improve the quality of the action animation between Thriller Bark and Marineford. You had animators like Yoshikazu Tomita, Naotoshi Shida, Ryo Onishi, Kenji Kuroyangai, Kenichi Fujisawa, Yukihiro Urata, Hiromi Ishigami as well as Naoki Tate and Katsumi Ishizuka(and more) setting new standards for action animation in the series that completely blew the first 300 episodes. These animators brought actual movement to a series that had previously been incredibly reliant on the most conservative animation possible.
The reason why a lot of the previous post time skip arcs feel a bit visually stagnant is because the staff growth that occurred between Thriller Bark and Marineford dramatically slowed down. A lot of those big name talents moved onto other series, with only a few remaining behind. The show would occassionally get a big name like Takeshi Nishino in for something like Dressrosa, but these stays tended to be short lived, and sadly weren't helped by the shows compositing completely stagnanting to look as flat and lifeless as possible, completely killing the atmosphere in tons of potentially great scenes.
My point is, the visual style of the show has always been changing and evolving. Sadly, a lot of times, not for the better. People actively used to meme on how bad One Piece looks in comparison to its contemporaries, and they wouldn't have been completely wrong.
One Piece didn't have many if at all, consistently high quality episodes in terms of animation for the most part.
This only really began to change late Dressrosa during the Katakuri fight, where the action animation began to become more consistent, and there began to be more consistently solid action episodes, before reaching a great mile stone in episode 870, Luffy vs Snakeman. Episode 870 was a massive milestone for the series at the time. It was by far the most production and animation intensive episode we'd ever seen from the series up till that point and felt truly special.
That was till Wano.
In Wano, it wasn't just the art consistency that arguably was improved. The show went from having a small rotation of fairly consistent talents, to just having a growing and immense wealth of incredibly talented animators who would fairly consistently pop in to animate on the series. Tons of fresh animators have managed to grow and advance significantly in Wano. Tu Yong Ce, a chinese animator who fully joined the team in WCI, rose the ranks from being a fantastic key animator to being a chief animation director, and has also been experimenting with storyboarding. Katsumi Ishizuka, a key animator and animation director, has moved onto storyboarding key moments of episodes. Talents like Henry Thurlow and Honehone who were mainly key animators, have been given storyboarding and direction opportunities. This experimentation with talent is something that wasn't prevelant at any point prior in the series and the anime has benefitted massively as a result.
Wano is not really more flashy than other major action anime out there. This statement to me suggests you just aren't very familiar with what other franchises are putting out.
By light effects, you often just mean having good compositing, which is incredibly sad because One Piece was infamous for how shit its compositing was before Wano.
One Piece has never had a single style, and the series adopting more modern animators and animation styles is something that has been desperately needed.
Without doing this, the anime would only have kept stagnating like it had between Fishman Island and Dressrosa, where the production of the series was a complete mess and the studio wasn't as focused on the anime.
My point is ONE PIECE NEVER HAD A SINGLE STYLE. Its a series thats visuals have always been evolving or stagnating over time depending on the staff involved or production circumstances, and One Piece isn't a stranger to more experimental or abstract art styles. Again, look at movie 6 or movie 9 or any Naoki Tate episode as prove of that.
Acting as if One Piece was ever particularly uniform in terms of animation is silly.
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Luffy actually woke up before him. We see Katakuri is lying down still when Luffy gets out of the hole.
And Katakuri was finished. Luffy wasn't.
Katakuri chose to make the fight even, but he lost to Luffy. He may have been the first on his feet(not saying he was awake first), but he couldn't keep fighting while Luffy could.
Walking over to Luffy was literally all he could do, he was at his limit. While Luffy could still move if he wanted to.
H
I did. Anime just added more scenes. What is the point?
I feel like I alread had this discussion before not sure if it was with you.
Yes it is. But the point is that One Piece had a style without flash light effects that changed entirely at Wano to follow DBS trend.
It doesn't fit into One Piece. Characters seems to be going super sayan. Thats DBZ shit.
Katakuri got up first.
I feel like I alread had this discussion before not sure if it was with you.
Yes it is. But the point is that One Piece had a style without flash light effects that changed entirely at Wano to follow DBS trend.
It doesn't fit into One Piece. Characters seems to be going super sayan. Thats DBZ shit.
Katakuri got up first.
No it wasn't lol. I'm not sure if you actually watched DBS, but DBS was never a particularly flashy show. The animation that you are really critical of was already happening in WCI, notably with Katsumi Ishizuka bringing some more popular modern visuals to the series. The most obvious example of this being King Kobra vs Buzz Cut Mochi.
Again, I have no idea where you're pulling DBS from. DBS DID NOT LOOK GOOD! ONE PIECE DOESN'T LOOK LIKE DBS!
Again, its trying to keep up with other more modern anime like KNY, MHA, Black Clover and JJK.
Again, do you actually know what DBS and DBZ look like? I'll give you a hint. Its not like current one piece. Yes, there can be aura effects used sometimes(and it isn't helped by the same sound designer for both series) but thats always been a problem even before Wano.
And again, the visuals for the series currently blow the prior arcs out of the water easily.
One Piece was never a series that recieved much praise for its visuals, which has dramatically changed since Wano, and since we've gotten a ton of great animators working consistently on the series.
Before Wano, One Piece was heavily criticized for its visuals. There were videos everywhere crapping on the visuals of the series. That has mostly died down with Wano.
Luffy was awake before Katakuri. Katakuri was still on the ground while Luffy was getting out of the hole. Katakuri was back on his feet standing first, but its made very clear that was the best he could do, and him getting up was really something he did with the last of his strength to ask Luffy that question before he collapsed again.
Again, I have no idea where you're pulling DBS from. DBS DID NOT LOOK GOOD! ONE PIECE DOESN'T LOOK LIKE DBS!
Again, its trying to keep up with other more modern anime like KNY, MHA, Black Clover and JJK.
Again, do you actually know what DBS and DBZ look like? I'll give you a hint. Its not like current one piece. Yes, there can be aura effects used sometimes(and it isn't helped by the same sound designer for both series) but thats always been a problem even before Wano.
And again, the visuals for the series currently blow the prior arcs out of the water easily.
One Piece was never a series that recieved much praise for its visuals, which has dramatically changed since Wano, and since we've gotten a ton of great animators working consistently on the series.
Before Wano, One Piece was heavily criticized for its visuals. There were videos everywhere crapping on the visuals of the series. That has mostly died down with Wano.
Luffy was awake before Katakuri. Katakuri was still on the ground while Luffy was getting out of the hole. Katakuri was back on his feet standing first, but its made very clear that was the best he could do, and him getting up was really something he did with the last of his strength to ask Luffy that question before he collapsed again.
In the manga, Luffy vs Kat is number 1, pre g5 Luffy vs Kaido is up there too.
BM fight had a great finale, Oda just fucked up and offscreened 90% of the fight lol. The attacks were very creative, who would have thought that Law would extend his sword the size of Mt everest lol. Kid and BM’s powers are also great but BM’s really lacked impact. Her final move should have been given more justice, hell she should have sliced Kid open with that maser saber and Law coud stitch him up again with his df. That would have been more epic.
Her send off was done really well imo, she was depicted as this unstoppable monster whom could only lose due to circumstances til the very end. Her speech about the burden that Roger brought to the yonkos was also on point. Finally she lost without no one hearing her, which is fitting and is parallel to when she couldn’t hear Mother Caramel anymore. Law’s move was also great, he helped beat a yonko with Corazon’s move which showed how far he’s come thanks to his family and benefactor.
All major Wano fights in the anime were given justice, Zoro vs King even beats Luffy vs Kat in terms of sheer epicness. Yamato vs Kaido, and Sanji vs Queen were also given better emotional weight. Oda really fucked Wano up lol, the potential he had with this arc is at least getting somewhat realized through Toei.
BM fight had a great finale, Oda just fucked up and offscreened 90% of the fight lol. The attacks were very creative, who would have thought that Law would extend his sword the size of Mt everest lol. Kid and BM’s powers are also great but BM’s really lacked impact. Her final move should have been given more justice, hell she should have sliced Kid open with that maser saber and Law coud stitch him up again with his df. That would have been more epic.
Her send off was done really well imo, she was depicted as this unstoppable monster whom could only lose due to circumstances til the very end. Her speech about the burden that Roger brought to the yonkos was also on point. Finally she lost without no one hearing her, which is fitting and is parallel to when she couldn’t hear Mother Caramel anymore. Law’s move was also great, he helped beat a yonko with Corazon’s move which showed how far he’s come thanks to his family and benefactor.
All major Wano fights in the anime were given justice, Zoro vs King even beats Luffy vs Kat in terms of sheer epicness. Yamato vs Kaido, and Sanji vs Queen were also given better emotional weight. Oda really fucked Wano up lol, the potential he had with this arc is at least getting somewhat realized through Toei.
H
DBS was always about flash show.
And this was since from DBZ
And WCI didn't had that flashy show
It was way different than what we have today
You can't even see Kaido. One Piece style animation would be closer to his G4 attacks.
Katakuri was just resting. He got up first. Went down later
Got up first
DBS was always about flash show.
And this was since from DBZ
And WCI didn't had that flashy show
You can't even see Kaido. One Piece style animation would be closer to his G4 attacks.
Actually, it definitely is sped up, while the King Kobra clip is slowed down dramatically.
Also, its amazing to me that the scene you consider NOT FLASHY is the one WHERE LUFFY'S FIST IS WRAPPED AROUND BY A GIANT GOLDEN KOBRA.
This is in comparison to this.
It was way different than what we have today
Also, here are other examples from the animator you consider "not flashy on WCI", but "too flashy" on Wano even though their style is literally exactly the same.
I think your just full of crap and clearly don't know what you're talking about. You literally linked the same animator with the same animaton style as examples of "One Piece style" and "not one piece style".
Katakuri was just resting. He got up first. Went down later
Got up first
To make it clearer to you I've circled him to make it more obvious that Katakuri was still down as Luffy got out of the hole.
