Controversial General Political Discussion
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This is a position that comes from priviledge. When you live all your life under bombing, when you are constantly put in the street because of colonization and when you lost many and many family member because of an injust and crypto fascist oppressive state and being dehumanized by this state, then you are doomed to engage and be very... very ... VERY angry and tempted to do exactly the same to your ennemies and VERY LITTLE room to actually feel empathy.
Being angry doesn't excuse atrocities but it explains them. And people who are angry and therefore supporting the only people who actually fight back the oppression DON'T deserve to die. In fact, NO ONE deserve to die, not even a monster.
Lack of empathy under pression of war is perfectly human, its not evil. Saying that it is evil will only prevent you from understanding the phenomenon.
This is a position that comes from priviledge. When you live all your life under bombing, when you are constantly put in the street because of colonization and when you lost many and many family member because of an injust and crypto fascist oppressive state and being dehumanized by this state, then you are doomed to engage and be very... very ... VERY angry and tempted to do exactly the same to your ennemies and VERY LITTLE room to actually feel empathy.
Being angry doesn't excuse atrocities but it explains them. And people who are angry and therefore supporting the only people who actually fight back the oppression DON'T deserve to die. In fact, NO ONE deserve to die, not even a monster.
Lack of empathy under pression of war is perfectly human, its not evil. Saying that it is evil will only prevent you from understanding the phenomenon.
Look, I'll put it bluntly: I was tortured for most of my early life -- literal torture. Sexual, mental and physical. I grew up in abstract poverty. I lived on the streets, and my family was displaced by the government housing system and practically abandoned by 'social security' nets.
Years later, still damaged, still hurting, I had the opportunity to kill the person who tortured me. It would have been easy. The person who ruined my life and family and made my life a misery. Right there. Vulnerable.
The choice wasn't even difficult. Of course I wouldn't do it. It's evil. Wrong. I still had morally despite 'oppression'. You're the privileged one, Logiko. You know fuck all. Evil is still evil. Do not absolve people of their sins for things you pity them for. They're still people, not animals you can relinquish judgement from.
Years later, still damaged, still hurting, I had the opportunity to kill the person who tortured me. It would have been easy. The person who ruined my life and family and made my life a misery. Right there. Vulnerable.
The choice wasn't even difficult. Of course I wouldn't do it. It's evil. Wrong. I still had morally despite 'oppression'. You're the privileged one, Logiko. You know fuck all. Evil is still evil. Do not absolve people of their sins for things you pity them for. They're still people, not animals you can relinquish judgement from.
This is essentialism. No Evil is not Evil. Evil is just humans doing evil things. This is a process that can be explained a countered. Its not some divine choice you can or cannot do.
Ok. You lived hard. But now, imagine that, but under bombing. With soldier that points gun at you when you are a kid. Imagine losing 30 member of your family because of those people.
I didn't say you didn't suffer, you did. And for you its surely horrible. But for them, they DON'T have the choice not to be evil most of the time. This is called humanity.
Explaining things is not forgiving them. But sayin "they are evil, they must die" is at best ignorant of the sociology of those people at worse completely dangerous because it puts people who simply are angry in danger. That's the EXACT thing the crypto fascist in power in Israel are using to justify their bombing. dehumnization and essentialism of an entire population.
This leads to ethnical cleansing and genocide very easily as we can see right now in Gaza.
So let's be careful with the E word and how we use it.
You don't know that. You are not at their place. You didn't lost 30 member of your family and right now you are not in a situation of complete despair under bombing wating for death. Under those condition, ANYONE can become a monster. You are not immune to it.
Ok. You lived hard. But now, imagine that, but under bombing. With soldier that points gun at you when you are a kid. Imagine losing 30 member of your family because of those people.
I didn't say you didn't suffer, you did. And for you its surely horrible. But for them, they DON'T have the choice not to be evil most of the time. This is called humanity.
Explaining things is not forgiving them. But sayin "they are evil, they must die" is at best ignorant of the sociology of those people at worse completely dangerous because it puts people who simply are angry in danger. That's the EXACT thing the crypto fascist in power in Israel are using to justify their bombing. dehumnization and essentialism of an entire population.
This leads to ethnical cleansing and genocide very easily as we can see right now in Gaza.
So let's be careful with the E word and how we use it.
You don't know that. You are not at their place. You didn't lost 30 member of your family and right now you are not in a situation of complete despair under bombing wating for death. Under those condition, ANYONE can become a monster. You are not immune to it.
This is nothing but logical and in complete adequation to what I'm saying here. The Hamas compared to others so called "terrorist" structure are the production of anger. This means that this is not evil humans that we are dealing with but people who are just sometimes blinded by their anger.
Some became monsters and must be punished accordingly and with EMPATHY and others remained sain, fighting for what they deem necessary.
That's why you can see both atrocities and also huge empathy for some hostages. This is not one big evil group. its a HUMAN group.
Some became monsters and must be punished accordingly and with EMPATHY and others remained sain, fighting for what they deem necessary.
That's why you can see both atrocities and also huge empathy for some hostages. This is not one big evil group. its a HUMAN group.
Comparing suffering into a hierarchy is not necessarily the best way of operating. As I've always said to people in my personal life who try to discount their experiences when they hear mine - all suffering is relative, and you cannot ever compare it.
I mean, when I was a child I had knives held to my throat. I have scars down my back. I know what it's like to have tools of murder directed at you at a young age.
I have not lost 30 people because of it, mind you. And that is a sad experience for those people.
We explain what the terrorists did, but people tend to ignore what the IDF do in response. It is here where your explanation comments lie flat. Do you think those who enacted revenge back should be pitied as well? You don't, from what I've read.
I never said "they must die," what a great comment. No. I said it's evil. They are morally responsible for their own actions and I do not believe any of them should have any justifications for their actions. Those who are angry and seek the destruction of society or property are not righteous, they are vindictive. Most revolutions result in an unprepared group taking over and often or not being just as fascistic or tyrannical as the previous dictatorship.
I will not "be careful" with calling it how it is. These people, the ones who attacked back, are evil. They were being savages, regardless of why. And it is that reality that we must accept.
I'm sorry to tell you this, Logiko, but not being in their specific place does not mean I don't have any understanding. I didn't lose 30 members of my family. But I lost the ability to trust almost anyone. I was betrayed, abused, raped and nearly killed by those who were meant to protect me. I was left with my monster by services that are meant to save you from them (police, social services). I was freed, only to have a new aggressor take up his reigns. I was homeless, I was malnourished to the point that I almost died, and I did not become a monster who would act on my base instincts.
I mean, when I was a child I had knives held to my throat. I have scars down my back. I know what it's like to have tools of murder directed at you at a young age.
I have not lost 30 people because of it, mind you. And that is a sad experience for those people.
We explain what the terrorists did, but people tend to ignore what the IDF do in response. It is here where your explanation comments lie flat. Do you think those who enacted revenge back should be pitied as well? You don't, from what I've read.
I never said "they must die," what a great comment. No. I said it's evil. They are morally responsible for their own actions and I do not believe any of them should have any justifications for their actions. Those who are angry and seek the destruction of society or property are not righteous, they are vindictive. Most revolutions result in an unprepared group taking over and often or not being just as fascistic or tyrannical as the previous dictatorship.
I will not "be careful" with calling it how it is. These people, the ones who attacked back, are evil. They were being savages, regardless of why. And it is that reality that we must accept.
I'm sorry to tell you this, Logiko, but not being in their specific place does not mean I don't have any understanding. I didn't lose 30 members of my family. But I lost the ability to trust almost anyone. I was betrayed, abused, raped and nearly killed by those who were meant to protect me. I was left with my monster by services that are meant to save you from them (police, social services). I was freed, only to have a new aggressor take up his reigns. I was homeless, I was malnourished to the point that I almost died, and I did not become a monster who would act on my base instincts.
Yeah you don't know what you're talking about. Most palestinians are Muslims, and adhere to Islamic law (and they would 100% want to be governed by it), and under that law if Hamas or anyone else under that law, targeted civilians they would be put down as that is considered murder.
There's no ifs or buts and no accidents is understandable, but outright targeting is murder and that's a death sentence.
So no im not advocating for nor am I supporting war crimes and you clearly do not know what you're talking about
There's no ifs or buts and no accidents is understandable, but outright targeting is murder and that's a death sentence.
So no im not advocating for nor am I supporting war crimes and you clearly do not know what you're talking about