Rank These Qin Generals

[Lee Ba Shou]

Delusional is whatever you're thinking but those above MouBu all has capabilities to stop him or even finish him. Lol

Kyou > Moubu is just canonically wrong, I don’t even know what series you’re reading if you say otherwise lol. Moubu has been outright stated to be stronger than her and Oukotsu.

And nah. Shouheikun’s hype alone is enough to put Moubu bare minimum in the top 5 strongest Q6 of all time. To put Kanki over Moubu…lmfao

Cool. Now apply your own logic consistently and give Tou the credit he deserves.

Ouki = Tou.

We’ll see. I wouldn’t mind. Tou is a beast lol.

 

[Shanks]

Kyou > Moubu is just canonically wrong, I don’t even know what series you’re reading if you say otherwise lol. Moubu has been outright stated to be stronger than her and Oukotsu.

And nah. Shouheikun’s hype alone is enough to put Moubu bare minimum in the top 5 strongest Q6 of all time. To put Kanki over Moubu…lmfao

Put down your favoritism aside and look at the facts from the series.

Not have enough time to search for chapters but this was described in SBK and EiSei's talk about Kyou's history and later in those FB, she had been showed dealing significant damage on Houken as well.

She had been portrayed as a prodigy general with strength and tactical knowledge.

Her achievements in just few years of military career is far more than what even a few of the greatest has showed in the series. 99 castles is quite huge amount. Lol

As for Kanki, he's someone who has nearly put Riboku on the death-bed which is enough to put him above Moubu as GG.

 

[Owl Ki]

This is how my list ended up @SakazOuki
1) Hakuki.
2) Ousen.
3) Ouki.
4) Yotanwa.
5) Tou.
6) Moubu
7) Shibasaku.
8) Kanki.
9) Kyou.
10) Duke Hyou.
11) Shouheikan.
12) Koshou.
13) Oukotsu.

 

[Shanks]

This is how my list ended up @SakazOuki
1) Hakuki.
2) Ousen.
3) Ouki.
4) Yotanwa.
5) Tou.
6) Moubu
7) Shibasaku.
8) Kanki.
9) Kyou.
10) Duke Hyou.
11) Shouheikan.
12) Koshou.
13) Oukotsu.

Why so low positions for SHK and Koshou while YTW so high ??

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Put down your favoritism aside and look at the facts from the series.

Ima stop you right there. The fact of the series is that Moubu is the strongest offensive power in Qin history. A statement that has little meaning until you realize that Kyou was a purely offensive 6GG, and that Moubu is also shown as stronger than Oukotsu. A huge part of Moubu’s current hype is that he is above these two, pulling a bunch of Kyou’s feats out of context doesn’t change this.

And @Owl Ki we need to work on your Shouheikun underestimation lmfao

 

[Owl Ki]

Why so low positions for SHK

And @Owl Ki we need to work on your Shouheikun underestimation lmfao

I am a pessimist by nature.

I prefer to conservatively under hype than to potentially overhype. Lol.

and Koshou

I agree with @MarineHQ in that Generals that are both great fighters + great tacticians/strategists are overall better than purely strategical Generals. Koshou was purely a strategist and I doubt he was a strategist that was way above the other Qin 6 in tactical talent so he ends up lower down the list.

YTW so high ??

Dude, Yotanwa is both a bonkers strong duelist, leader and strategist commanding the nuttiest army in the setting. She ends up high on the list for a good reason. Lol.

 

[Rumble]

Going strictly of what is in the manga, Ou Ki is the best there was and ever will be. Hara likes the guy a little too much for my tastes, but I digress.

On the topic of Kyou - she was all but shown to be loved by the gods of war. Her flame perished when she was barely into her prime, if even that, and yet she stood on a mountain of achievements. She would've slain Hou Ken if not a singular missstep.

Kyou was undoubtedly far more gifted at war and warfare than Mou Bu. She was arguably the most talented of them all given her age relative to her achievements.

Post automatically merged: Dec 6, 2023

manga only

SSS+ | Haku Ki, Ou Ki, Ri Boku
SSS | Ou Sen, Kou En, Ren Pa
SS+ | Mou Bu, Tou, Yo Tan Wa, Kan Mei, Ka Rin, Go Hou Mei
SS | Duke Hyou, Man'U, Gai Mou, Kyou, Kan Ki
S+ | Sen To'Un, Gyou'un, Shou Hei Kun
S | Kei Sha, Ko Chou, Rin Bu Kun
A | Mou Gou

 

[MarineHQ]

@Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki @MarineHQ @God Buggy ect..

So I've noticed some of ya'll have differing views on the Ouki vs Ousen ranking. I'm fine with either or but what's the reasoning?

I believe Renpa and Ouki are just the pinnacle of Generals we've seen so far in the series, there's nothing they can't do and there's no scenario in which they can't compete at the highest level whether it's a fight or using and countering tactics.

Ousen is superior to both as a strategist and he will scale above every general before him based on future accomplishments but I really need to see Ousen deal with a monster fighter on his own to entertain him beat Renpa or Ouki. I don't think he will beat them himself but maybe he has some broken defensive formations at his disposal.

He's up against one of the strongest fighters currently so we might get an answer to that soon.

Cool. Now apply your own logic consistently and give Tou the credit he deserves.

Ouki = Tou.

In all seriousness, Riboku did say that in order for him to be defeated Shin has to surpass Ouki, which might be where the discrepancy lies. But it's possible we aren't supposed to take that literally.

Sometimes I sleep on this man because he hasn't shown all he's got but damn if Hara wants Tou may have been Ouki level all this time.
- I mean it came out of Ouki's mouth that their abilities are equal.
- GHM said Tou has no flaws while Ousen does.
- Tou was always Strong while Moubu only got there after Ouki's death.

 

[Rumble]

Sometimes I sleep on this man because he hasn't shown all he's got but damn if Hara wants Tou may have been Ouki level all this time.
- I mean it came out of Ouki's mouth that their abilities are equal.
- GHM said Tou has no flaws while Ousen does.
- Tou was always Strong while Moubu only got there after Ouki's death.

Do you not think Hara has gone out of his way many times now to indicate Tou is a supremely skilled mfer?

Dude broke the 4th Wall during the Coalition War (ch 296ish) just so he could have Tou tell us what an impressive feat his Bell Formation was in response to Ka Rin bringing the thunder.

Tou has consistently shown unimpeachable temperament and skills. He essentially played bait during the Choyou Campaign, despite being the senior officer and therefore entitled to most of the daring and glory, and he exercised both vision and judgment by ensuring the young officers of Qin were given the opportunity to act and grow in doing so.

Tou is truly the perfect general. To beat him, you simply have to be better.

Go Hou Mei is an arrogant little shit as he's almost as complimentary of Tou as he is of Ri Boku. The man knows.

Tou is a surgeon.

 

[FutureWarrior123]

1. Hakuki
2. Ouki
3. Moubu
4. Tou
5. Ousen
6. Shouheikun
7. Yotanwa
8. Shibasaku
9. Kanki
10. Kyou
11. Koshou
12. Ouketsu

If I did this list last week I would have placed Ousen at the No. 1 spot, but I'm going through my Moubu/Tou agenda phase right now. I'm a firm believer.

 

[Rumble]

4. Tou
5. Ousen

Bold.

Yet I have no issue with this.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

I prefer to conservatively under hype than to potentially overhype. Lol.

Man, I feel like even if you are conservative with Shouheikun, his hype is extreme.

Even if you take the “intellect on par with Riboku” statements with grains of salt, and the “as strong as Moubu” statements with grains of salts, I mean damn that’s one character being compared to the best mind and the best warrior in China at the same time. Nobody else can claim that, everybody else’s hype applies in only one category.

Ousen is hyped to oblivion solely by being compared to Hakuki and Riboku strategically. Shouheikun has that hype and then some.

The manga hypes Moubu’s strength as a warrior above almost everyone else in China. Shouheikun as that and then some.

I think if he were actively Qin 6 when they revived the system, he would be ranked at bare minimum above Yotanwa and Kanki, realistically he would be #1 or #2.

 

[Rumble]

Shou Hei Kun
STR 96
LDR 97
INT 99

A prodigy in martial matters and phenom of strategy and tactics. In essence, to keep it a buck, save for temperament, experience and judgment - among other intangibles - if I had to put it straight: SHK is a better version of Tou, which is to say, an extremely lethal motherfucker.

Post automatically merged: Dec 6, 2023

he manga hypes Moubu’s strength as a warrior above almost everyone else in China. Shouheikun as that and then some.

I think if he were actively Qin 6 when they revived the system, he would be ranked at bare minimum above Yotanwa and Kanki, realistically he would be #1 or #2.

SHK was stronger than Mou Bu when they were kids. We can speculate on what trajectory he would've been on, but I think a sober reading of the manga would clearly indicate Mou Bu was destined to surpass him and go on to claim the mantle of Strongest in all of China.

I have a very high opinion of SHK's abilities, but if he were a member of the current generation of 6GGs (and I maintain he should've been from the start), he would be #2 based on seniority, and #3 on raw ability.

In terms of actual ability he'd be last or second to last, basically competing for fifth place with Kan Ki.

 

[FutureWarrior123]

Going strictly of what is in the manga, Ou Ki is the best there was and ever will be. Hara likes the guy a little too much for my tastes, but I digress.

I feel like Hara really set out of his way to make Riboku > Ouki seem pretty definitive though, in my opinion.

 

[Rumble]

I feel like Hara really set out of his way to make Riboku > Ouki seem pretty definitive though, in my opinion.

I disagree because Hara really went out of his way to mitigate that loss. Ou Ki essentially lost because of the actions of others (read: Mou Bu) forcing him to leave his vantage point, and was nevertheless allowed by the author to largely anticipate his invisible enemy's next move (second army).

In the end, despite the Qin having 100K largely made up of emergency conscripts, they inflicted greater casualties on the 160K Zhao elites that had invaded their land to kill Ou Ki in the first place.

Hara has moved heaven and earth to elevate Ou Ki to some demigod like status. He has the most absurd levels of mythologising in the material.

When Shin eventually gets a win over Ri Boku, it'll be as though Ou Ki unleashed the arrow that struck all the way back in Bayou.

 

[MarineHQ]

Do you not think Hara has gone out of his way many times now to indicate Tou is a supremely skilled mfer?

Dude broke the 4th Wall during the Coalition War (ch 296ish) just so he could have Tou tell us what an impressive feat his Bell Formation was in response to Ka Rin bringing the thunder.

Tou has consistently shown unimpeachable temperament and skills. He essentially played bait during the Choyou Campaign, despite being the senior office and therefore entitled to most of the daring and glory, and he exercised both vision and judgment by ensuring the young officers of Qin were given the opportunity to act and grow in doing so.

Tou is truly the perfect general. To beat him, you simply have to better.

Go Hou Mei is an arrogant little shit as he's almost as complimentary of Tou as he is of Ri Boku. The man knows.

Tou is a surgeon.

There's only one way to kill Tou. Force him into a 1v1 and be simply stronger. Good luck finding a formation that Tou hasn't seen before and falls for it so severely that he could lose his life.

1. Hakuki
2. Ouki
3. Moubu
4. Tou
5. Ousen
6. Shouheikun
7. Yotanwa
8. Shibasaku
9. Kanki
10. Kyou
11. Koshou
12. Ouketsu

If I did this list last week I would have placed Ousen at the No. 1 spot, but I'm going through my Moubu/Tou agenda phase right now. I'm a firm believer.

Bold.

Yet I have no issue with this.

In the end, ignoring feats on the battlefield, just based on historical achievements Ousen will scale above every Qin general past or present.
Taking down entire Kingdoms is an unprecedented feat and just based off of that the likes of Hakuki, Ouki and Renpa will fall below him in rankings.

Hell it's actually possible that Tou surpasses Ouki in feats as well.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

he would be #2 based on seniority, and #3 on raw ability.

In terms of actual ability he'd be last or second to last, basically competing for fifth place with Kan Ki.

? What is the difference between raw ability and actual ability? Lol

And nah in terms of ability Shouheikun is definitely number 1 in Qin right now, no other commander has his versatility. Ousen might be above Shouheikun strategically but Shouheikun would erase him and all his commanders in a fight. Moubu is above Shouheikun in a fight but Shouheikun bodies him tactically and strategically.

Hell I would argue in terms of tactics (which I define as formations and straightforward army vs army tactics) Shouheikun is above Riboku and Ousen. Shouheikun has shown two actual battlefield tactics which were both hilariously effective, and so high level that other tacticians thought they were too impractical to use them. Shouheikun not only used them but decimated the forces he used them against.

His Echelon (via Moubu) completely shattered Kanmei’s ranks and opened Kanmei himself for Moubu to reach him. His Hyourai defeated an army of 10,000 with only 1,000 men. I don’t think tactically Ousen or Riboku have shown anything even close to that.

Ousen’s Shells and Joints was great until Riboku figured it out and countered it via Bananji. Riboku’s Great Crane was great until Ousen deciphered it and rendered it useless. Riboku’s Ryuudou was hyped quite a bit but Duke Hyou countered it.

Shouheikun may be the best formation/tactician commander we’ve seen in the series, rivaled so far only by Gokei who exterminated 90,000 Qin soldiers in an afternoon. At least imo.

So anyway. Yeah Shouheikun is the only tactician we’ve ever seen use tactics considered high risk high reward and yet he executes them flawlessly.

 

[Rumble]

There's only one way to kill Tou. Force him into a 1v1 and be simply stronger. Good luck finding a formation that Tou hasn't seen before and falls for it so severely that he could lose his life.

Tou either has to be dealt insurmountable circumstances or have a very bad day at the office to lose to anyone worse than him.

The experience is just such a deep bag for him to go to, it's no wonder he's been a slippery goose to anyone that's tried for his head.

In the end, ignoring feats on the battlefield, just based on historical achievements Ousen will scale above every Qin general past or present.
Taking down entire Kingdoms is an unprecedented feat and just based off of that the likes of Hakuki, Ouki and Renpa will fall below him in rankings.

Hell it's actually possible that Tou surpasses Ouki in feats as well.

I'm a big fan of Tou, but I didn't ever put much stock in Ou Ki's final words to Tou being a sincere and literal comparison.

As strong as Tou is, he's not the warrior Ou Ki was (though undoubtedly more skilled, imo), he's not the leader of men that Ou Ki was (Hara's stats be damned), and I don't believe he is currently the mind Ou Ki was at the time of his death - though this is one area I imagine Tou could eventually surpass Ou Ki.

To quantify my perception of them
Ou Ki STR 97 LDR 98 INT 95 EXP S
Tou STR 96 LDR 96 INT 95 EXP S

? What is the difference between raw ability and actual ability? Lol

The difference between what's possible on paper and actual in practice.

On paper, I think Shou Hei Kun is better than Tou. In practice, I think Tou is superior by a good margin.

On paper, Shin's skillset is narrow. In practice, his Instinctual Type tactical acuity is beyond even master strategists and his leadership unlocks greater ability out of his men akin to Ou Ki.

And nah in terms of ability Shouheikun is definitely number 1 in Qin right now, no other commander has his versatility.

What versatility would you be referring to here?

We've seen more offence and more defence from the second generation of 6GGs and the Q3. Even Kyou Kai has shown more in the way of defensive and offensive versatility.

I truly have no earthly idea what makes you think SHK is more versatile than the actually active generals we've seen pull rabbits from hats and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat more times than anyone cares to keep track of.

This is platitude is based on nothing.

Hell I would argue in terms of tactics (which I define as formations and straightforward army vs army tactics) Shouheikun is above Riboku and Ousen. Shouheikun has shown two actual battlefield tactics which were both hilariously effective, and so high level that other tacticians thought they were too impractical to use them. Shouheikun not only used them but decimated the forces he used them against.

Does it really have to be pointed out SHK's feats were contingent on the heavy lifting of the HSU and others or that they were pulled off against an absolute scrub of an opponent no one cares to remember, much less respect?

His Echelon (via Moubu) completely shattered Kanmei’s ranks and opened Kanmei himself for Moubu to reach him. His Hyourai defeated an army of 10,000 with only 1,000 men. I don’t think tactically Ousen or Riboku have shown anything even close to that.

SHK made a suggestion. It fell to Mou Bu and his officers to actually do the damn work using Echelon formations. You imply a level of credit for SHK for this feat that simple wasn't earned.

As for the Hyourai formation, you once again neglect to mention this was a feat executed with the support of others - including the mighty HSU.

Ousen’s Shells and Joints was great until Riboku figured it out and countered it via Bananji. Riboku’s Great Crane was great until Ousen deciphered it and rendered it useless. Riboku’s Ryuudou was hyped quite a bit but Duke Hyou countered it.

Shell and Joints kept the likes of Ba Nan Ji and Gyou'un at bay. That feat is incomparable with anything SHK has achieved.

Duke Hyou remains the strongest instinctual type to date and was a bona fide 6GG tier commander. Ri Boku had no way of anticipating his level of Instinctual prowess, it simply defied what he thought possible. Nevertheless, I doubt he would've left himself so open if he hadn't known Hou Ken was right next to him.

Shouheikun may be the best formation/tactician commander we’ve seen in the series, rivaled so far only by Gokei who exterminated 90,000 Qin soldiers in an afternoon. At least imo.

This is absurd, lol.

Also, Ri Boku exterminated 120~130K in a single day, in case you missed that.

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

Fuck it, this list is going to be shit but:

1. Ousen.
2. Hakuki.
3. Ouki.
4. Shouheikun
5. Moubu
6. Yotanwa
7. Tou
8. Duke Hyou.(biggest x factor general in the manga).
9. Kanki
10. Shibasaku
11. Oukotsu.
12. Kyou
13. Koshou

God this is an awful list

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

The difference between what's possible on paper and actual in practice.

On paper, I think Shou Hei Kun is better than Tou. In practice, I think Tou is superior by a good margin.

Source: I made it the fuck up/trust me bro/please believe me

I don’t know what argument you could possibly cite to suggest Tou is superior to Shouheikun “by a good margin” as a general or as a tactician lol. Don’t do drugs kids.

Nor do I know why you believe Shouheikun’s skills on paper don’t apply on the actual battlefield when Shouheikun is literally the only commander in this manga shown successfully executing tactics that other commanders considered to be impossible in practice.

That is the literal definition of being good in practice while everyone else can only fathom the paper, lol

Shouheikun is lethal on a level other tacticians dream of. He’s got high risk high reward tactics in his back pocket and uses them in the right scenarios successfully. We’ve literally seen not a single other commander doing this. I’m not sure what hallucination you suffered from where Tou used more successful tactics than Shouheikun but this is what the actual manga has shown us.

The only thing Tou has shown us by way of an actual formation was the Bell formation against Karin, which was great but it was very much shown to be a formation that would have failed if Tou wouldn’t have made Ouhon and Mouten the commanders of his army. So by your own dumbass logic of Shouheikun’s Hyourai not counting because the B-team of the Hi Shin Unit read his tactic and knew what he was trying to do, Tou’s literal one and only shown formation doesn’t count lol.

Even Kyou Kai has shown more in the way of defensive and offensive versatility.

Aside from Kyoukai exterminating Kaishibou’s elites, Kyoukai has had about as much battlefield relevance as Tou has had formation hype. Which is just about zero.

SHK suggested the using Echelon formations. It felt to Mou Bu to actually do the damn work. You imply a level of credit for SHK here that simply wasn't earned.

Because Shouheikun specifically instructed Moubu on how to use the technique. Moubu pulled off the Echelon purely by virtue of Shouheikun suggesting the tactic and then teaching him to use it. This was purely a feat of Shouheikun’s intelligence, because Shouheikun would of course be better at using the Echelon than Moubu is, and Moubu’s Echelon still completely shattered Kanmei’s entire army.

And Shouheikun foresaw the Echelon being Moubu’s best option days before the armies had even lined up to face each other. How you read this scene as not massive Shouheikun hype is completely beyond me.

As for the Hyourai formation, you once again neglect to mention this was a feat executed with the support of others - including the mighty HSU.

I didn’t neglect it, you twisted the facts of the matter into believing fucking Kyoukai is a better tactician than Shouheikun. Shouheikun used the Hyourai explicitly knowing the Hi Shin Unit would back him up. How is this an anti feat exactly? Shouheikun had 1,000 men and still pulled the tactic off successfully in the face of 10,000 because he knew Ten would read what he was trying to do and take the correct action.

Like what did you expect? Can I downplay Tou because his only shown formation would have failed without Mouten and Ouhon? What other deluded argument can you possibly even make about Tou showing better tactics than Shouheikun?

I can see it now: “Tou retreated immediately from Rei Ou, this is a better feat than all of Shouheikun’s because…” [insert drug induced brain rot argument that makes zero sense]

Shell and Joints kept the likes of Ba Nan Ji and Gyou'un at bay. That feat is incomparable with anything SHK has demonstrated.

Shouheikun shattered Kanmei’s Chu army in one move. Actually, it wasn’t even Shouheikun but his pet gorilla who did so with Shouheikun’s instruction.

Imagine if I taught Koko the Gorilla how to perform Beethoven on the piano, and then some idiot online tried to downplay my piano playing ability because it wasn’t me who played the piano but the damn gorilla. Unbelievable lmfao.

Also, Ri Boku exterminated 120~130K in a single day, in case you missed that.

Using strategy, not tactics. Riboku exterminated the Xiong Nu by baiting them deep into Zhao by feigning defeats, then trapped them into Zhao, surrounded them, and exterminated them using his highly fast and highly mobile cavalry-archers.

That’s not a tactical feat, that’s a strategic feat.