Spoiler Unfiltered Kingdom Talks - Historical info & all that jazz (Beware)
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I definitely think Renpa will die in a blaze of glory, slain by Shin in Chu. When Renpa fought Mougou, it was stated by both men that there was no burning fire inside Renpa that day (despite him still ultimately destroying Mougou of course). The reason for that was Ouki's death, the loss of the last of his rivals from the previous gen.
When Shin faces Renpa, the last act of that battle will be a 1v1 duel with Renpa's fire reignited. This is the monster who will ultimately find death by Shin's glaive, a man who surpasses the old generation.
Get ready for Renpa to pull out some crazy shit man, when we will get to Chu.
When Shin faces Renpa, the last act of that battle will be a 1v1 duel with Renpa's fire reignited. This is the monster who will ultimately find death by Shin's glaive, a man who surpasses the old generation.
Get ready for Renpa to pull out some crazy shit man, when we will get to Chu.
I thought you also subscribed to @Elder Lee Hung ridiculous theory that Ouhon will be the one to defeat Ousen and not Shin, if I misunderstood I apologize.
Ouhon was the commander, Shin was the deputy.
Ouhon has always been more powerful than Shin, you act like Ouhon being stronger than Shin would come out of nowhere when arguably this has been 100% of Kingdom lol
Anyway, ofc it’s speculation. Hara isn’t going 1:1 with history and never has been. More on that:
You know what else would go against history? Shin even being a top 5 general of this era, lol
If Hara intends to make Shin the greatest general of all time as has been Shin’s dream, then the literal main plot of Hara’s manga is ahistorical, lol
Anything is on the table for EOS. History is a loose roadmap for the future of the manga, not a plot chokehold.
Ouhon has always been more powerful than Shin, you act like Ouhon being stronger than Shin would come out of nowhere when arguably this has been 100% of Kingdom lol
Anyway, ofc it’s speculation. Hara isn’t going 1:1 with history and never has been. More on that:
You know what else would go against history? Shin even being a top 5 general of this era, lol
If Hara intends to make Shin the greatest general of all time as has been Shin’s dream, then the literal main plot of Hara’s manga is ahistorical, lol
Anything is on the table for EOS. History is a loose roadmap for the future of the manga, not a plot chokehold.
Citation needed. I see you're just taking your info out of wikipedia lol.
LMAO. Shin has had the better achievements in every campaign when they were together except the Fire Dragon one.
I'm fully aware of that, that's why I don't come up with ridiculous theories and try to defend them "cuz history" like you do. You're the one defending Ouhon being the best "cuz history", not me.
I never used such justifications about Shin, as a three kingdoms fan accustomed to the differences between the novel universe and the historical one, it's easy for me to do the same with kingdom and make a clear divide between manga canon and history.
According to history Ouki was crap and Hakuki the GOAT of this period, but the manga already threw that out the window.
LMAO. Shin has had the better achievements in every campaign when they were together except the Fire Dragon one.
I'm fully aware of that, that's why I don't come up with ridiculous theories and try to defend them "cuz history" like you do. You're the one defending Ouhon being the best "cuz history", not me.
I never used such justifications about Shin, as a three kingdoms fan accustomed to the differences between the novel universe and the historical one, it's easy for me to do the same with kingdom and make a clear divide between manga canon and history.
According to history Ouki was crap and Hakuki the GOAT of this period, but the manga already threw that out the window.
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One of the few sources I have access to here in the west lol. Anyway, are you contradicting that source with a better one? The scant other sources I have also list Wang Ben as the commander who fell Qi.
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Zhou/personswangben.html
This source even lists Wang Ben as the commander who captures the King of Qi, King Jian (Sen), which would work perfectly if Ousen is the final King of Qi. The son surpassing the father and all that.
Do achievements = strength now? This is news to me, I guess Ouhon already surpassed Tou during Choyou since Ouhon’s achievements massively overshadowed Tou’s own during that campaign.
No, ofc achievements =/= strength. Ouhon has always been superior to Shin, its only even become remotely debatable which one of them is superior in very recent years.
Besides, if you want to argue achievements are all that matter, then it is actually Moubu who defeats Chu and not Ousen because Moubu is the one who defeated every opponent of note in Chu historically without Ousen’s help. So we’d have to take away Ousen’s best credited campaign since Moubu was the one who did all of the actual work lol.
????? Literally all of my Kingdom theories are ahistorical lol.
I never said Ouhon would be the best at EOS. Not once. I said if Hara stays faithful to history while also making Ousen the King of Qi, then it will be Ouhon who leads the campaign to defeat Ousen with Shin as his deputy. You inferred everything else.
You’re entitled to make your own distinctions between history and what you think will happen in the future of the manga as is everyone else lol. Don’t act like you have a monopoly on these ideas.
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Zhou/personswangben.html
This source even lists Wang Ben as the commander who captures the King of Qi, King Jian (Sen), which would work perfectly if Ousen is the final King of Qi. The son surpassing the father and all that.
Do achievements = strength now? This is news to me, I guess Ouhon already surpassed Tou during Choyou since Ouhon’s achievements massively overshadowed Tou’s own during that campaign.
No, ofc achievements =/= strength. Ouhon has always been superior to Shin, its only even become remotely debatable which one of them is superior in very recent years.
Besides, if you want to argue achievements are all that matter, then it is actually Moubu who defeats Chu and not Ousen because Moubu is the one who defeated every opponent of note in Chu historically without Ousen’s help. So we’d have to take away Ousen’s best credited campaign since Moubu was the one who did all of the actual work lol.
????? Literally all of my Kingdom theories are ahistorical lol.
I never said Ouhon would be the best at EOS. Not once. I said if Hara stays faithful to history while also making Ousen the King of Qi, then it will be Ouhon who leads the campaign to defeat Ousen with Shin as his deputy. You inferred everything else.
You’re entitled to make your own distinctions between history and what you think will happen in the future of the manga as is everyone else lol. Don’t act like you have a monopoly on these ideas.
I'm glad that you're bringing up chinaknowledge, but if that is the case I wonder why you haven't brought up Li Xin's bio as well?
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Zhou/personslixin.html
"Li Xin received the command over further campaigns in the northeast—albeit in dual command with Wang Ben 王賁—, and was able to capture the kings of Dai 代 (see Zhao) and Qi 齊. For this achievement, he was invested as Marquis of Longxi 隴西侯, a territory in what is today Gansu, where Li Xin resided thereafter."
Dual command. Where does it say that Wang Ben was above Li Xin?
Of course they do, if you are superior it is logical that you would have better achievements. Tou was rewarded with Great generalship after FD campaign and Ouhon with 5k commander, but Ouhon surpassed Tou, sure lol.
Shin bodies Ouhon whether in 1vs1 or army vs army, call me again when Riboku calls Ouhon a match for him.
Moubu defeating every opponent of Chuwithout Ousen's help historically? Lol. Citation needed again.
Bruh you literally just said that Ouhon being the best at the end is just like in history, do you want me to bring up the quote again?
Right.
Futurewarrior123said
"Nah man, Ouhon who's actually the real protagonist all along will secure the greatest achievement in the climax of the story
"
Then you said.
"Literally what happens in history lmfao"
But sure, I totally made it up
I don't think I have a monopoly on anything, you're the one acting butthurt because I don't buy your Ouhon getting the biggest achievement theory "cuz history" so...
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Zhou/personslixin.html
"Li Xin received the command over further campaigns in the northeast—albeit in dual command with Wang Ben 王賁—, and was able to capture the kings of Dai 代 (see Zhao) and Qi 齊. For this achievement, he was invested as Marquis of Longxi 隴西侯, a territory in what is today Gansu, where Li Xin resided thereafter."
Dual command. Where does it say that Wang Ben was above Li Xin?
Of course they do, if you are superior it is logical that you would have better achievements. Tou was rewarded with Great generalship after FD campaign and Ouhon with 5k commander, but Ouhon surpassed Tou, sure lol.
Shin bodies Ouhon whether in 1vs1 or army vs army, call me again when Riboku calls Ouhon a match for him.
Moubu defeating every opponent of Chuwithout Ousen's help historically? Lol. Citation needed again.
Bruh you literally just said that Ouhon being the best at the end is just like in history, do you want me to bring up the quote again?
Right.
Futurewarrior123said
"Nah man, Ouhon who's actually the real protagonist all along will secure the greatest achievement in the climax of the story
"Then you said.
"Literally what happens in history lmfao"
But sure, I totally made it up
I don't think I have a monopoly on anything, you're the one acting butthurt because I don't buy your Ouhon getting the biggest achievement theory "cuz history" so...
Because I don’t use ChinaKnowledge as my only source, I used that source as a random example of a source that claims Ouhon himself captures the Qi King lol.
No sources that we have on this time period are 100% accurate, so you have to take an amalgamation of the sources you have, and even then that may not even be accurate, and there is still no telling what Hara will do. I have seen sources claiming Shin and Ouhon were dual commanders against Qi, and I have seen sources that claim Ouhon was the commander and Shin was his deputy. So an amalgamation of sources we have would seem to imply Ouhon was either the commander or the one with the more significant achievements straight up.
Again, that doesn’t mean this is what Hara will do, but this is what the sources I have claim.
Jesus fucking Christ. Is sarcasm lost on this forum or something? I would’ve thought the point of what I was saying was that Ouhon was obviously not stronger than Tou but then you went ahead and tried to address this point anyway. I guess I really can’t use sarcasm to prove points on this forum, it just goes over the vast majority of user’s heads lmfao. So let me dumb this down as much as I possibly can:
Ouhon’s Choyou achievements took a royal shit on Tou’s. It was Ouhon’s strategy that surpassed Gohoumei’s, and it was Ouhon who defeated Earl Shi while Tou sat in the Qin HQ and watched. Were it not for Ouhon, Tou would’ve requested aid from Ousen which would’ve endangered the Zhao front, but it was thanks to Ouhon that we avoided this.
Ouhon’s Choyou achievements >>>>> Tou’s Choyou achievements, but of course Tou was still the far superior commander. Anything else you need for me to simplify down to a kindergarten level? Saying Tou’s achievements were better than Ouhon’s as Choyou just because he was the commander, is like saying Mougou was the superior commander to Renpa just because Mougou’s subordinates checkmated Renpa. Or like saying Ousen was superior to Riboku at Shukai because Ousen’s subordinates defeated Riboku for him.
Literally the last time Shin and Ouhon fought:
And Ouhon was swatting Shin around with one arm, lol
Shin also fought Gyou’Un for a whole afternoon without beating him, Ouhon killed Gyou’Un in like 2 blows. Sure Gyou’Un also almost defeated him but Ouhon found openings in Gyou’Un that Shin couldn’t find in an entire afternoon in 2 blows. So literally no clue what achievements you attribute to Shin that Ouhon wasn’t also capable of aside from Houken, but then I can just point to Earl Shi who there’s no evidence that even current Shin would defeat lol.
Not at all. Every historical source I’ve seen is in near unison agreement, outside of Ousen initially deceiving Kou En and launching a surprise invasion, Ousen accomplished absolutely nothing in Chu. It was Moubu who felled the Chu Capitol, Moubu who defeated Shouheikun, and Moubu who defeated the Baiyue. Ousen got the credit because he was the commander, but it was Moubu who did all of the heavy lifting in the Chu campaign. Some sources I’ve seen even claim Moubu killed Kou En himself.
Saying Ousen gets the credit for defeating Chu is literally the same as saying Mougou gets the credit for defeating Renpa lol. Technically true, but extremely misleading when you understand that his subordinates did all of the actual work lol.
Because he and I have been having this debate for a long time and he knows exactly what I’m saying without me needing to restate exactly what I’ve already said lol. And now you do too.
Except I’ve never told you what I think will happen in the manga, I’ve only told you what I’ve observed happens historically lmfao. Do you always make this many assumptions? I never said Ouhon will be the #1 general of all time at EOS.
Maybe you wouldn’t get so mad if you didn’t go around making these assumptions lol. I think Hara will probably give Shin the #1 spot of all time, with Ouhon either being #2 or #3.
With the combined power of the HSU and Gakuka. If Shin can’t outdo Ouhon with Mouten’s help, there is no hope for him at EOS. Lol
No sources that we have on this time period are 100% accurate, so you have to take an amalgamation of the sources you have, and even then that may not even be accurate, and there is still no telling what Hara will do. I have seen sources claiming Shin and Ouhon were dual commanders against Qi, and I have seen sources that claim Ouhon was the commander and Shin was his deputy. So an amalgamation of sources we have would seem to imply Ouhon was either the commander or the one with the more significant achievements straight up.
Again, that doesn’t mean this is what Hara will do, but this is what the sources I have claim.
Jesus fucking Christ. Is sarcasm lost on this forum or something? I would’ve thought the point of what I was saying was that Ouhon was obviously not stronger than Tou but then you went ahead and tried to address this point anyway. I guess I really can’t use sarcasm to prove points on this forum, it just goes over the vast majority of user’s heads lmfao. So let me dumb this down as much as I possibly can:
Ouhon’s Choyou achievements took a royal shit on Tou’s. It was Ouhon’s strategy that surpassed Gohoumei’s, and it was Ouhon who defeated Earl Shi while Tou sat in the Qin HQ and watched. Were it not for Ouhon, Tou would’ve requested aid from Ousen which would’ve endangered the Zhao front, but it was thanks to Ouhon that we avoided this.
Ouhon’s Choyou achievements >>>>> Tou’s Choyou achievements, but of course Tou was still the far superior commander. Anything else you need for me to simplify down to a kindergarten level? Saying Tou’s achievements were better than Ouhon’s as Choyou just because he was the commander, is like saying Mougou was the superior commander to Renpa just because Mougou’s subordinates checkmated Renpa. Or like saying Ousen was superior to Riboku at Shukai because Ousen’s subordinates defeated Riboku for him.
Literally the last time Shin and Ouhon fought:
And Ouhon was swatting Shin around with one arm, lol
Shin also fought Gyou’Un for a whole afternoon without beating him, Ouhon killed Gyou’Un in like 2 blows. Sure Gyou’Un also almost defeated him but Ouhon found openings in Gyou’Un that Shin couldn’t find in an entire afternoon in 2 blows. So literally no clue what achievements you attribute to Shin that Ouhon wasn’t also capable of aside from Houken, but then I can just point to Earl Shi who there’s no evidence that even current Shin would defeat lol.
Not at all. Every historical source I’ve seen is in near unison agreement, outside of Ousen initially deceiving Kou En and launching a surprise invasion, Ousen accomplished absolutely nothing in Chu. It was Moubu who felled the Chu Capitol, Moubu who defeated Shouheikun, and Moubu who defeated the Baiyue. Ousen got the credit because he was the commander, but it was Moubu who did all of the heavy lifting in the Chu campaign. Some sources I’ve seen even claim Moubu killed Kou En himself.
Saying Ousen gets the credit for defeating Chu is literally the same as saying Mougou gets the credit for defeating Renpa lol. Technically true, but extremely misleading when you understand that his subordinates did all of the actual work lol.
Futurewarrior123said
"Nah man, Ouhon who's actually the real protagonist all along will secure the greatest achievement in the climax of the story "
Then you said.
"Literally what happens in history lmfao"
But sure, I totally made it up
"Nah man, Ouhon who's actually the real protagonist all along will secure the greatest achievement in the climax of the story
"Then you said.
"Literally what happens in history lmfao"
But sure, I totally made it up
Except I’ve never told you what I think will happen in the manga, I’ve only told you what I’ve observed happens historically lmfao. Do you always make this many assumptions? I never said Ouhon will be the #1 general of all time at EOS.
Maybe you wouldn’t get so mad if you didn’t go around making these assumptions lol. I think Hara will probably give Shin the #1 spot of all time, with Ouhon either being #2 or #3.
With the combined power of the HSU and Gakuka. If Shin can’t outdo Ouhon with Mouten’s help, there is no hope for him at EOS. Lol
I am fully aware that one should look at all the information, since biographies often omit information about certain events, and you find the relevant details in biographies of different people. So, if you could show those sources that state that Wang Ben was the commander in chief and Li Xin his subordinate, that would be great.
Ouhon plan was implemented because Tou gave the green light, thus the credit belongs ultimately to him no matter howyou dislike it. The plan against Gohoumei worked only because of Shin and Ouhon's heroics against their respective FD, GHM having no knowledge that they were following Ouhon's plan since Tou was the commander in chief and he didn't expect him to pull such a reckless plan (and we know as stated by Riboku how important the knowledge about enemy commanders is), and because Shin noticed GHM and Rei Ou trying to regroup the Wei army to slay Tou after GHM escaped his HQ, and put a stop to it by killing Rei Ou. Otherwise they would have failed.
The Qin court didn't think Ouhon outperformed Tou, otherwise theywouldn't have received the rewards they received.
Pretending that those fucking around spars mean anything at all to who's stronger when we know Shin is much stronger in real fights than in sparring as stated here:
https://ww4.readkingdom.com/chapter/kingdom-chapter-217/
Shin killed Rinko who Ouhon couldn't do shit against, but Ouhon has always been stronger than Shin, sure
Ouhon was destroyed by Gyou'un and would have died if not for Kyoukai's medicine.
Oh look, the typical Shin downplayer argument that Houken doesn't count lmao. Did you really think I was going to humour you? Houken destroys anyone Ouhon has ever fought, including Earl Shi. I would love for you to argue that killing Earl Shi is more impressive than killing Houken, seriously, it'll give me a good laugh if nothing else.
Yes, every historical source agrees with it, that's why Wang Jian is considered one of the 4 best generals in the warring states while Meng Wu is nowhere to be seen.
Show those sources that say Meng Wu was doing everything, then.
And that changes what I said how?
You said that historically Ouhon got the biggest achievement, which is factually incorrect. You could have accepted that you were wrong but instead decided to double down and try to change the goalposts.
Oh yeah, the Gakuka was so useful. What do you think was more useful,when Mouten's drill formation got crushed, when Mouten got knocked the fuck out by Gakushou or when Shin had to return after escaping the encirclement to rescue the Gakuka?
Yes, it does. Ouhon's plan wouldn't even have succeeded without Shin killing Rei Ou and preventing the Wei army from regrouping and killing Tou.
Remember when Ouhon took charge of the right wing to flank Riboku and allow Ousen to take the win at Shukai? Oh wait, that was Shin again.
Ouhon plan was implemented because Tou gave the green light, thus the credit belongs ultimately to him no matter howyou dislike it. The plan against Gohoumei worked only because of Shin and Ouhon's heroics against their respective FD, GHM having no knowledge that they were following Ouhon's plan since Tou was the commander in chief and he didn't expect him to pull such a reckless plan (and we know as stated by Riboku how important the knowledge about enemy commanders is), and because Shin noticed GHM and Rei Ou trying to regroup the Wei army to slay Tou after GHM escaped his HQ, and put a stop to it by killing Rei Ou. Otherwise they would have failed.
The Qin court didn't think Ouhon outperformed Tou, otherwise theywouldn't have received the rewards they received.
Literally the last time Shin and Ouhon fought:
And Ouhon was swatting Shin around with one arm, lol
Shin also fought Gyou’Un for a whole afternoon without beating him, Ouhon killed Gyou’Un in like 2 blows. Sure Gyou’Un also almost defeated him but Ouhon found openings in Gyou’Un that Shin couldn’t find in an entire afternoon in 2 blows. So literally no clue what achievements you attribute to Shin that Ouhon wasn’t also capable of aside from Houken, but then I can just point to Earl Shi who there’s no evidence that even current Shin would defeat lol.
And Ouhon was swatting Shin around with one arm, lol
Shin also fought Gyou’Un for a whole afternoon without beating him, Ouhon killed Gyou’Un in like 2 blows. Sure Gyou’Un also almost defeated him but Ouhon found openings in Gyou’Un that Shin couldn’t find in an entire afternoon in 2 blows. So literally no clue what achievements you attribute to Shin that Ouhon wasn’t also capable of aside from Houken, but then I can just point to Earl Shi who there’s no evidence that even current Shin would defeat lol.
https://ww4.readkingdom.com/chapter/kingdom-chapter-217/
Shin killed Rinko who Ouhon couldn't do shit against, but Ouhon has always been stronger than Shin, sure
Ouhon was destroyed by Gyou'un and would have died if not for Kyoukai's medicine.
Oh look, the typical Shin downplayer argument that Houken doesn't count lmao. Did you really think I was going to humour you? Houken destroys anyone Ouhon has ever fought, including Earl Shi. I would love for you to argue that killing Earl Shi is more impressive than killing Houken, seriously, it'll give me a good laugh if nothing else.
Yes, every historical source agrees with it, that's why Wang Jian is considered one of the 4 best generals in the warring states while Meng Wu is nowhere to be seen.
Show those sources that say Meng Wu was doing everything, then.
And that changes what I said how?
You said that historically Ouhon got the biggest achievement, which is factually incorrect. You could have accepted that you were wrong but instead decided to double down and try to change the goalposts.
Oh yeah, the Gakuka was so useful. What do you think was more useful,when Mouten's drill formation got crushed, when Mouten got knocked the fuck out by Gakushou or when Shin had to return after escaping the encirclement to rescue the Gakuka?
Yes, it does. Ouhon's plan wouldn't even have succeeded without Shin killing Rei Ou and preventing the Wei army from regrouping and killing Tou.
Remember when Ouhon took charge of the right wing to flank Riboku and allow Ousen to take the win at Shukai? Oh wait, that was Shin again.
Ouhon's accolades up to the current chapter in the manga are more consistent, and his method of conducting 1-on-1 combat against opponents of similar caliber (or stronger) is more cerebral. (Earl Shi & the Gyou'un fights)
Shin's performance against opponents of similar caliber (or stronger) may not be as consistent but when he succeeds, the results are exemplary. That shonen energy does tend to take a lot out of Shin though in the vast majority of cases.
The inconsistency in Shin's performance can be rationalized as Shin and his opponents having bigger gaps in martial ability though. The gap in martial ability between Shin & Gaimou was slightly wider than Earl Shi & Ouhon for example, and Earl Shi's regard for his mortality in that battle was...questionable.
Ouhon has a better case than Shin right now for than last remaining 6GG spot. Consistent results in performance makes someone a reliable employee after all (ngl this is debatable and it's never the first time that people similar to Ouhon have been skipped over for a promotion).
Shin's performance against opponents of similar caliber (or stronger) may not be as consistent but when he succeeds, the results are exemplary. That shonen energy does tend to take a lot out of Shin though in the vast majority of cases.
The inconsistency in Shin's performance can be rationalized as Shin and his opponents having bigger gaps in martial ability though. The gap in martial ability between Shin & Gaimou was slightly wider than Earl Shi & Ouhon for example, and Earl Shi's regard for his mortality in that battle was...questionable.
Ouhon has a better case than Shin right now for than last remaining 6GG spot. Consistent results in performance makes someone a reliable employee after all (ngl this is debatable and it's never the first time that people similar to Ouhon have been skipped over for a promotion).
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https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Qin's_wars_of_unification
This source lists Ouhon as the Qin commander when Qin defeats Qi.
Though to your credit, Wikipedia actually lists Shin as the Qin commander for Qi. Not sure if that was changed but I do actually see Shin as the commander for the Qi campaign now.
Lmfao, I’ve already explained why this is dumb, and you know full well why this is dumb so I won’t bother touching it again. I do think this is funny though:
Oh really now? Lmfao
Straight up admission that Ouhon’s plan defeated Wei that day lmfao. Sure Tou made the call to go with Ouhon’s plan but again, it’s like saying Mougou defeated Renpa when his subordinates did all the work. Technically true, until you dive into the details.
Um, yes they did lol. Shouheikun was going to advance Ouhon two ranks in the Qin military until Tou talked him down.
And there’s obviously more that goes into which people hold which ranks aside from just winning one battle. Ouhon was very young and inexperienced, Qin wasn’t going to make him a Great General just because he scored one victory against two Great Generals at once (Houmei strategically and Shi Ei martially), they want Ouhon to gain more experience before they start putting him in command of hundreds of thousands of men. Tou meanwhile was a General during King Shou’s era, his experience massively dwarfed Ouhon’s.
There is zero evidence Houken defeats Gaimou who had weight on par with Renpa, and reminded that Ouhon was easily swatting around the same Shin who fought Gaimou. “Oh Shin is different in a real fight,” as if Ouhon isn’t also lmfao…
There is also zero evidence Houken defeats Shi Ei whatsoever. Speculate all you want but literally Houken’s best 1v1 victory is Duke Hyou who, by stats at least, is a weaker warrior than Shi Ei.
Here is a source of Moubu killing Shouheikun (literally Shouheikun might be Chu’s explicit King in this campaign), and of Moubu defeating the Baiyue tribes:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wu#:~:text=Meng Wu (Chinese: 蒙武,in the conquest of Chu.&text=He was a son of,Meng Yi, all Qin generals.
Here is a source crediting Moubu with killing Kou En himself as well as capturing the final King of Chu:
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Zhou/personsmengwu.html
Both of these sources credit Moubu’s explicit actions as the ones that ended Chu.
So yeah, Ousen got the credit as his commander just as Tou got the credit for Ouhon at Choyou. If that’s your standard for what achievements count then you may as well argue that Mougou defeated Renpa.
Lmfao, FutureWarrior knew what I meant and that comment was addressed to him. I don’t care if you still don’t understand what I’m actually saying at this point.
I think the distraction provided by the combined HSU and Gakuka Units bought Kyoukai the opening she needed to carve an escape path lol. To compare the two combined units to the Gyoku Hou alone tells you all you need to know.
This source lists Ouhon as the Qin commander when Qin defeats Qi.
Though to your credit, Wikipedia actually lists Shin as the Qin commander for Qi. Not sure if that was changed but I do actually see Shin as the commander for the Qi campaign now.
Lmfao, I’ve already explained why this is dumb, and you know full well why this is dumb so I won’t bother touching it again. I do think this is funny though:
Oh really now? Lmfao
Straight up admission that Ouhon’s plan defeated Wei that day lmfao. Sure Tou made the call to go with Ouhon’s plan but again, it’s like saying Mougou defeated Renpa when his subordinates did all the work. Technically true, until you dive into the details.
Um, yes they did lol. Shouheikun was going to advance Ouhon two ranks in the Qin military until Tou talked him down.
And there’s obviously more that goes into which people hold which ranks aside from just winning one battle. Ouhon was very young and inexperienced, Qin wasn’t going to make him a Great General just because he scored one victory against two Great Generals at once (Houmei strategically and Shi Ei martially), they want Ouhon to gain more experience before they start putting him in command of hundreds of thousands of men. Tou meanwhile was a General during King Shou’s era, his experience massively dwarfed Ouhon’s.
There is zero evidence Houken defeats Gaimou who had weight on par with Renpa, and reminded that Ouhon was easily swatting around the same Shin who fought Gaimou. “Oh Shin is different in a real fight,” as if Ouhon isn’t also lmfao…
There is also zero evidence Houken defeats Shi Ei whatsoever. Speculate all you want but literally Houken’s best 1v1 victory is Duke Hyou who, by stats at least, is a weaker warrior than Shi Ei.
Here is a source of Moubu killing Shouheikun (literally Shouheikun might be Chu’s explicit King in this campaign), and of Moubu defeating the Baiyue tribes:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wu#:~:text=Meng Wu (Chinese: 蒙武,in the conquest of Chu.&text=He was a son of,Meng Yi, all Qin generals.
Here is a source crediting Moubu with killing Kou En himself as well as capturing the final King of Chu:
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Zhou/personsmengwu.html
Both of these sources credit Moubu’s explicit actions as the ones that ended Chu.
So yeah, Ousen got the credit as his commander just as Tou got the credit for Ouhon at Choyou. If that’s your standard for what achievements count then you may as well argue that Mougou defeated Renpa.
Lmfao, FutureWarrior knew what I meant and that comment was addressed to him. I don’t care if you still don’t understand what I’m actually saying at this point.
I think the distraction provided by the combined HSU and Gakuka Units bought Kyoukai the opening she needed to carve an escape path lol. To compare the two combined units to the Gyoku Hou alone tells you all you need to know.
This is my first time hearing it. Ou remains a common surname to this day but a relation between Ou Sen and Ou Ken would certainly be an exciting reveal with or without an Ou Family Rebellion.
Qi is hinted to have two very good (Great?) generals that Ou Ken had faith in being able to stop the rampage of the Coalition Army they betrayed.
Will do.
My biggest objection to Ou Sen rebelling - however he does it - is that there there is no going back from that and while ostensibly following history. Full tyrant or not, no version of Sei would stay his hand from exterminating a rebellious family, no matter how prestigious, even if only for the sake of sending a warning through precedent.
I believed and hoped Mou Ten would join Ou Sen's retinue after the failed Gi'an campaign to become stronger. Mou Ten would never side with him against his father or Sei.
I envision it happening in a private setting with Shin, filled with revelations and insights, and complete with a flashback arc to the days of King Sho and the original Six Greats. I believe Shin will do the cliche of repeating a statement Ou Sen has heard many times before in the past from men he respected. Ou Sen will then finally retire his ambitions, after which Sei extends an olive branch.
Qi is hinted to have two very good (Great?) generals that Ou Ken had faith in being able to stop the rampage of the Coalition Army they betrayed.
Will do.
My biggest objection to Ou Sen rebelling - however he does it - is that there there is no going back from that and while ostensibly following history. Full tyrant or not, no version of Sei would stay his hand from exterminating a rebellious family, no matter how prestigious, even if only for the sake of sending a warning through precedent.
I believed and hoped Mou Ten would join Ou Sen's retinue after the failed Gi'an campaign to become stronger. Mou Ten would never side with him against his father or Sei.
I envision it happening in a private setting with Shin, filled with revelations and insights, and complete with a flashback arc to the days of King Sho and the original Six Greats. I believe Shin will do the cliche of repeating a statement Ou Sen has heard many times before in the past from men he respected. Ou Sen will then finally retire his ambitions, after which Sei extends an olive branch.
We know the names of 3 Qi generals
Gan Mo, who was supposed to be the coalition commander, so likely a great general
And Kanshu, and Denkaku, who were called to stop the coalition. Interestingly enough, one of them ends up fighting for Zhao iirc
The theory is that Ousen harbors the same ambition that Qi did when it was a super state. Let's say that his father was a third son of the Qi King during the time, and they fled to Qin during the coalition. They disguised Ousen as a son of the Ou family head at a time(kinda paralleling Kyou to some extent). That's why it's so important to Ousen that Ouhon is his flesh and blood.
True. Ouhon's son, Wang Li(?) I believe was a prominent general during Qin after the unification. Maybe we can say Sei spares Ouhon and family if they fight against Ousen during a hypothetical rebellion
I never considered that but that would have been an interesting story line if Mouten was more of a power hungry character
That's possible. I believe Ousen has his own philosophy about the state of the Kingdoms in China and he'll talk about it with Sei, similar to the debates Ssi had with Ryofui and Kanki.
Ousen and Shin having a long conversation where Shin learns about Ouki and the other greats would be cool. I'm not opposed to the idea at all, though the prospect of Ousen just "giving up" on his ambitions and dying of old age peacefully isn't as cool as him being the final antagonist
Gan Mo, who was supposed to be the coalition commander, so likely a great general
And Kanshu, and Denkaku, who were called to stop the coalition. Interestingly enough, one of them ends up fighting for Zhao iirc
The theory is that Ousen harbors the same ambition that Qi did when it was a super state. Let's say that his father was a third son of the Qi King during the time, and they fled to Qin during the coalition. They disguised Ousen as a son of the Ou family head at a time(kinda paralleling Kyou to some extent). That's why it's so important to Ousen that Ouhon is his flesh and blood.
True. Ouhon's son, Wang Li(?) I believe was a prominent general during Qin after the unification. Maybe we can say Sei spares Ouhon and family if they fight against Ousen during a hypothetical rebellion
I never considered that but that would have been an interesting story line if Mouten was more of a power hungry character
That's possible. I believe Ousen has his own philosophy about the state of the Kingdoms in China and he'll talk about it with Sei, similar to the debates Ssi had with Ryofui and Kanki.
Ousen and Shin having a long conversation where Shin learns about Ouki and the other greats would be cool. I'm not opposed to the idea at all, though the prospect of Ousen just "giving up" on his ambitions and dying of old age peacefully isn't as cool as him being the final antagonist