Let me ask you : Do you feel like:

- Universal healthcare
- 35 hours week
- Minimum wage
- Union rights
- Unemployment insurance
- Rights of Strike
- Retirement at 60
- Abortion rights
- Same sex Mariage
and hundreds more...


... Are "sh*t in practice" ?

(just to know where you stand when you are talking about social leftist politicies)
>universal healthcare

Yes. I see it in my country and it sucks. However, this depends a lot of some factors. I actually think that some of the procedures that were done in the city of São Paulo-Brazil (partnership between the government and some private hospitals) can be a step in the right direction. Basically, as long as it is in the hands of the government it sucks.

>35 hours week

It depends on a variety of factors. If someone try to claim this to every single job I will assume he is either stupid or crazy.

> Minimum wage

Yes. See answer to healthcare.

> Union rights

No. As long as the act of joining a union is voluntary

> Unemployment insurance

As long as the employee accepts the discount on his paycheck and can stop the withdraw/take away the money when he wants is ok and sometimes even useful since many people don't have the habit of saving.

> Rights of Strike

It depends.

>Retirement at 60

Yes.

>Abortion rights

As long as the pregnancy happened without the consent of the mother (rape) or the pregnancy either causes the mother to suffer the risk of death or the child suffers from some deformity that makes living impossible or a living hell. If the mother wants to kill the child because she was stupid to open her legs to a asshole fuck her.

>Same sex Mariage

No issue with civil marriage. Trying to force religions to celebrate the marriage should be prohibited.
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If the power is socialist and apply socialist policies it doesn't mean that there is socialism in place ?
Open any basic introductory book on socialism. Look at the part about abolishing private property and state based economy. Try to understand what that means.
Look at the countries mentioned by @Uncle Van and if you still dares to claim that they are socialist you should take your meds.
 
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Uncle Van

Monké Don't Do Taxes
Open any basic introductory book on socialism. Look at the part about abolishing private property and state based economy. Try to understand what that means.
Look at the countries mentioned by @Uncle Van and if you still dares to claim that they are socialist you should take your meds.
Socialism is an umbrella term. Abolishing private property and having a state based economy is communism. All communist are socialist but not all socialist are communist. You can call it far left socialism. Almost all communism nations fell apart because they were run by dictators(no I don't support communist nations or economies).
 
Socialism is an umbrella term. Abolishing private property and having a state based economy is communism. All communist are socialist but not all socialist are communist. You can call it far left socialism. Almost all communism nations fell apart because they were run by dictators(no I don't support communist nations or economies).
If you squint to much you will be able to claim everything as socialist, it seems. The fact is that socialism and communism have specific definitions and they are only considered a umbrella term by activists trying to distance themselves from the failures of previous attempts of communists. Socialism in the end just tries to bring the shit communism.
The fact is that every single nation you mentioned was capitalist. Most of the movements you mentioned are under social democracy.
PS: In the end, I believe we are talking about the same things but using different terms. I actually have to apologize because I absolutely despise communism and socialism and looking at your posts you seem way more moderate than I was giving credit for.
 
You are the only one with victim mentality here.
Please, tell me what is your problem the "victim mentality". Since you seems to think that asking for more political liberty in the discussion forum is bad... go on. Explain to me the problem with that "mentality" ?


and has its rules which you agreed to follow when you made your account.
And since when accepting to follow rules to join a group, means accepting not to question any of those rules ?
You don't see the problem with your logic ?


OH ? Do you felt like I feel censored ? Did I ever said that I felt censored ? Dude... You are really underestimating me right now...

Until now, I've been able to say exactly what I wanted to say on this forum, no matter how many ban I faced

:myman:

I understand perfectly the rules of this forum and I understand exactly why I'm banned when its happens, even if I consider those ban unjust on an ethical plan. I sometimes disagree with the sanctions, I can find the rules unjust, in fact I fight those sanction on an ethical plan (by trying to make mods understand why they are noethical), I can ask for a clarification on the sanction, but I take responsibility when they are applied mate, I don't cry because I'm being rejected from a space.

When I break a rule, I don't expect mods not to follow them since we discuss under a power that doesn't question its own rules. This is the difference between me and you. I don't feel censored at all:

Yes. I don't have freedom of speech. I'm being censored right now.
You report people that disagree with you. That info you try to censor.

Just that there is a certain area
Which is problematic for multiple reasons.


So basically what you want is to talk about Satan inside a catholic church when you can have your own Satan church to speak about it
You are making here a highly fallacious comparison. Since for it to be correct, political discussion would need to be non related to the subject of topic where I want to integrate more political discussion. Yet.. we are on a forum discussion about a story that is HIGHLY politically engaged. Meaning that politicizing the discussion in this context, especially when said discussions have something to do with the them included in the story is perfectly relevant and important.

What I want, is to stop people from separating politics from art and especially stories.

Stories are one of the most political support there is in history. Trying to depoliticize discussion about stories is a act of negation of the nature of those stories. Its a political act of suppression of opinion and political awareness.


I don't fell like that just like you don't feel far left
But you can call me far left if you want. Contrary to you, I do not take that badly. I would LOVE to be far left, I just don't have enough knowledge to be far left yet !

That's the difference between my political side and yours. You know full well that your far side is problematic and extremely dangerous. I know full well that mine is not.

:kayneshrug:


But thanks at least to agree that I'm not fascist
Trust me, if I thought that you were fascist.. you would see a whole new face of mine.


And I'm just saying I don't think left and right are good to talk about ones political views because people have views that are told to be to one side or the other.
The problem is that you don't understand why there is a left and a right side (aside from historical relevance). The reason why those notions have survived is not because its history, its because its relevant in term of political values:

Those two groups are ennemies because people in those groups shares similar sets of value systems and because those value system enter in conflict because of their nature.

For example, the left believe in the absence of meritocracy and the notions of social capitals when the left believe in the existence of merit. This shiism is foundamental because its the basis for a entire division in terms of value systems and politics.

This type of division exist for a large number of values and this is why there is a right and a left side.

You can be for progressive or conservative values.. but you will foundamentally believe in one of the two value system that is the base of the right or the left. For example, liberal usually believe in the right for LGBTQ+ but they only started to believe in those notion because of the pressure of the environment. In reality, they believe in the power of meritocracy and capitalism which is the foundamental ennemy of the left side.


>universal healthcare

Yes. I see it in my country and it sucks. However, this depends a lot of some factors. I actually think that some of the procedures that were done in the city of São Paulo-Brazil (partnership between the government and some private hospitals) can be a step in the right direction. Basically, as long as it is in the hands of the government it sucks.

>35 hours week

It depends on a variety of factors. If someone try to claim this to every single job I will assume he is either stupid or crazy.

> Minimum wage

Yes. See answer to healthcare.

> Union rights

No. As long as the act of joining a union is voluntary

> Unemployment insurance

As long as the employee accepts the discount on his paycheck and can stop the withdraw/take away the money when he wants is ok and sometimes even useful since many people don't have the habit of saving.

> Rights of Strike

It depends.

>Retirement at 60

Yes.

>Abortion rights

As long as the pregnancy happened without the consent of the mother (rape) or the pregnancy either causes the mother to suffer the risk of death or the child suffers from some deformity that makes living impossible or a living hell. If the mother wants to kill the child because she was stupid to open her legs to a asshole fuck her.

>Same sex Mariage

No issue with civil marriage. Trying to force religions to celebrate the marriage should be prohibited.
So basically you have a lot of problem to understand what is sh*t and what is not sh*t.. Explaining for exemple to a frenchman that universal healthcare if put in the hand of the gov is a bad thing.. is really ... really bold.
Open any basic introductory book on socialism. Look at the part about abolishing private property and state based economy. Try to understand what that means.
Look at the countries mentioned by @Uncle Van and if you still dares to claim that they are socialist you should take your meds.
Socialism is very broad mate, its not a simple system of abolition of private property.. it can also pass through a compromise with the current system, Van is right here:

Socialism is an umbrella term. Abolishing private property and having a state based economy is communism. All communist are socialist but not all socialist are communist. You can call it far left socialism.
I actually have to apologize because I absolutely despise communism and socialism and looking at your posts you seem way more moderate than I was giving credit for.
@Uncle Van When an ultra libertarian conservatist call you a "moderate"... Start to panic.
 
So basically you have a lot of problem to understand what is sh*t and what is not sh*t..
You stupid animal, I directly told what I think is shit and what isn't. Only a crazy retard like you would think that there's any issues.
Explaining for exemple to a frenchman that universal healthcare if put in the hand of the gov is a bad thing.. is really ... really bold.
As if the opinion of a unproductive waste would be of any value.
Socialism is very broad mate,
No. It has a specific definition and usage. Including a manual about how it would work and function. Capitalist and socialist economies are different. To a point that there was a need for a term about how to use leftist policies in a capitalist society. If you want to use a word, use the proper definition for it.
@Uncle Van When an ultra libertarian conservatist call you a "moderate"... Start to panic.
Learn to read. That was not what I said.
 

Uncle Van

Monké Don't Do Taxes
If you squint to much you will be able to claim everything as socialist, it seems. The fact is that socialism and communism have specific definitions and they are only considered a umbrella term by activists trying to distance themselves from the failures of previous attempts of communists. Socialism in the end just tries to bring the shit communism.
The fact is that every single nation you mentioned was capitalist. Most of the movements you mentioned are under social democracy.
PS: In the end, I believe we are talking about the same things but using different terms. I actually have to apologize because I absolutely despise communism and socialism and looking at your posts you seem way more moderate than I was giving credit for.
I'm literally stating things by definition and mentioning history....

Why do you think I kept saying leftism/socialism? Because they are interchanglbe depending on perspective. The 2 examples I mentioned earlier was moving away from captialism and implemented a ton of socialist policies by definition and saw great success. My point was simply that there are nations that were succeeding when their government was transforming into a leftist one. Communism almost always failed because they were run by dictators, and that says nothing about what I believe in as I'm simply mentioning history. Feelings are irrelevant in this matter.
 
I'm literally stating things by definition and mentioning history....
I recommend you check the dictionary. This link even has a helpful guide about when to use socialism and when to use social democracy.

Now about the examples you mentioned. Bolivia was (and still is) capitalist. He was basically moving to start a dictatorship and he just failed(I recommend reading about the São Paulo Forum). The fact is that the economy was based on commodities and he used the money taken from tax to invest in his policies and until 2019 wasn't able to move away from Capitalism as you claim and the policies could still be considered social democracy. Basically, without the money from the products he sold in the international market because of Capitalism he would be unable to do anything.
As the policies move away from Capitalism and more towards socialism and communism, the more issues we start to have until the place turns into a shithole.
You are talking about Royals, right??
Try again
 

Uncle Van

Monké Don't Do Taxes
I recommend you check the dictionary. This link even has a helpful guide about when to use socialism and when to use social democracy.

Now about the examples you mentioned. Bolivia was (and still is) capitalist. He was basically moving to start a dictatorship and he just failed(I recommend reading about the São Paulo Forum). The fact is that the economy was based on commodities and he used the money taken from tax to invest in his policies and until 2019 wasn't able to move away from Capitalism as you claim and the policies could still be considered social democracy. Basically, without the money from the products he sold in the international market because of Capitalism he would be unable to do anything.
As the policies move away from Capitalism and more towards socialism and communism, the more issues we start to have until the place turns into a shithole.

Try again
I don't need to read that. Social Democracy isn't anti-capitalist; it's a capitalistic economy with strong socialist policies. It basically tries to find a sweet spot between socialism and capitalism which are complete opposites.

I'm well aware that Bolivia was a captialist and that Evo used capitalism. Once again, the point is how him gradually moving away from capitalism and towards socialism improved everything for a time.

You said leftist governments never worked. I was simply giving examples as to where leftist policies improved a nation under left leaning leaders. If you want to go to specifics and say no left leaning government survived until the end, then you are correct. What I disagree with is the idea that it cannot work or haven't worked before.

Do I think a completely left wing economy can work? Fuck no. It's so easy for a dictator to emerge.
 
lol "animal" ? That's ironic ... :shocking:


As if the opinion of a unproductive waste would be of any value.
Damn :shocking:


Yes lol, learn about it.

Capitalist and socialist economies are different.
Indeed. That's why a compromise between capitalism and socialism is problematic.


Learn to read. That was not what I said.
I read, I read don't worry :shocking:

I recommend you check the dictionary
Rightist and centrist when they are given a encyclopedic explanation of a phenomenon:

"YoU sHoUld ChEcK ThE dEfInItIoN iN tHe DiCtIoNaRy" :shocking:


Do I think a completely left wing economy can work? Fuck no.
Well... we never really tried...:kayneshrug:
 
I don't need to read that. Social Democracy isn't anti-capitalist; it's a capitalistic economy with strong socialist policies. It basically tries to find a sweet spot between socialism and capitalism which are complete opposites.

I'm well aware that Bolivia was a captialist and that Evo used capitalism. Once again, the point is how him gradually moving away from capitalism and towards socialism improved everything for a time.

You said leftist governments never worked. I was simply giving examples as to where leftist policies improved a nation under left leaning leaders. If you want to go to specifics and say no left leaning government survived until the end, then you are correct. What I disagree with is the idea that it cannot work or haven't worked before.

Do I think a completely left wing economy can work? Fuck no. It's so easy for a dictator to emerge.
I understand your point of view now. Outside of some details that are most semantic it make sense and I even partially agree.
Thanks for explaining.
 
No you don't. The reason those notion emerged is not because of the revolution invented something, its because someone needed to put a name on a political phenomenon.

The notion of right and left are the result of a political phenomen, a result of the conflict of value systems and are still relevant today. Although I can grant you the fact that they should not be named like that.

The left should be called "mostly right side" and the right should be called the "mostly wrong side". But hey.. let's not confuse people too much! Its already hard enough with people like you.

:shocking:



Meritocracy doesn't work and will never work. The reason is simple, its based on a myth. On literal false narrative and a ignorance of social structures.


Indeed, there is no such thing as communism in the world, just as there is no such thing as meritocracy.



This.



Indeed, its possible to be pro LGB and be a bigot.



I'm sure you have a lot of example of REAL leftist policies applied to society that were sh*t in practice.

Let me ask you : Do you feel like:

- Universal healthcare
- 35 hours week
- Minimum wage
- Union rights
- Unemployment insurance
- Rights of Strike
- Retirement at 60
- Abortion rights
- Same sex Mariage
and hundreds more...


... Are "sh*t in practice" ?

(just to know where you stand when you are talking about social leftist politicies)
Meritocracy is literally based on principles of confucianism you can’t say it doesn’t exist .

One of major demerits is social inequality and bias in selection . It generally breeds Autocracy in long run .
 
H

Herrera95

And since when accepting to follow rules to join a group, means accepting not to question any of those rules ?
You don't see the problem with your logic ?
I agree with questioning of course. But your victim mentality problem is to say that you are treated differently from the others.

OH ? Do you felt like I feel censored ? Did I ever said that I felt censored ? Dude... You are really underestimating me right now...

Until now, I've been able to say exactly what I wanted to say on this forum, no matter how many ban I faced

:myman:
To be ban for saying what you want, and possibly having that content removed, it is essentially to be censored either you feel like it or not. I'm not surprised you can't understand how censorship works since you want to censorship opposing ideas of yours on the premise to be harmful to certain individuals (again victim mentality)

You are making here a highly fallacious comparison. Since for it to be correct, political discussion would need to be non related to the subject of topic where I want to integrate more political discussion. Yet.. we are on a forum discussion about a story that is HIGHLY politically engaged. Meaning that politicizing the discussion in this context, especially when said discussions have something to do with the them included in the story is perfectly relevant and important.

What I want, is to stop people from separating politics from art and especially stories.

Stories are one of the most political support there is in history. Trying to depoliticize discussion about stories is a act of negation of the nature of those stories. Its a political act of suppression of opinion and political awareness.
Of course the old content creator fallacy of One Piece being about politics. There is nothing about politics in One Piece or at least the bare minimum.

One Piece story is about bad guys doing purposefully bad stuff to good people and then a neutral party (Luffy is generally good but he can do bad stuff too) came to put an end into bad guys tiranny and then good guys took over and everything starts to go well. The only politics here is that bad guys were corrupted and good guys are not. There is no mention (as far I remember) about different views on politics to allow people grow.

Also One Piece World is all dominated by monarchy. So the only real free people are the anarchists pirates that proves people can be good without law (Roger, Whitebeard, Shanks, Luffy and their crew).

It is way different from Attack on Titan for example when both parties are at the same side but have different views on how to make things better (despite still having corruption and other real life society problems) or even when two nations that kind of doesn't want war but they are forced to it because of their history. Attack on Titan is heavily political. One Piece is bare minimum if any at all.

But you can call me far left if you want. Contrary to you, I do not take that badly. I would LOVE to be far left, I just don't have enough knowledge to be far left yet !

That's the difference between my political side and yours. You know full well that your far side is problematic and extremely dangerous. I know full well that mine is not.

:kayneshrug:
Actually I don't know much about far right being problematic specially because coming from you anything on your side is far right doesn't matter if 1 cm or 1 km. But you being okay with being far left just means that you don't care at all about people since far left is related to dictatorships like the ones we have now at Venezuela and Cuba that are killing its people (the unlucky president that can't escape the country) or at the last China, Russia that are till today two of the worst periods of humanity where many people died.

You can be for progressive or conservative values.. but you will foundamentally believe in one of the two value system that is the base of the right or the left. For example, liberal usually believe in the right for LGBTQ+ but they only started to believe in those notion because of the pressure of the environment. In reality, they believe in the power of meritocracy and capitalism which is the foundamental ennemy of the left side.
I will change liberal for libertarian. So libertarian is essentially to defend every people rights equally. Alphabet people are included simply because they are people. The only minority we defend is the individual. No groups division.

Some times I even wonder how much libertarian I am since it seems reasonable to give up a bit of freedom in order to have safety. For example El Salvador president is highly condemned into libertarianism because he is being kind of a dictator when fighting the crime and not giving people proper justice. BUT! It is working. What is said is that there are probably innocent people who got arrested and that would be a horrible thing to happen of course. But to look at a country that was taken by the crime and now it is one of the safest of the world. Would that a price too high to pay? Or it is worth it?
 
When they add the rest of the alphabet because of their delusions any amount of good faith will be gone.
EDIT: This Dave special on the T's is spot on in what I mean
Dave's bits hit so hard because they hit on basic understanding so well, but I guess too well because almost tragically, people can't resist folding them into misguided sentiments. Like there is no productivity in arguing about their experience as a delusion rather than a truth to them with which we may not agree. And yeah there is a difference.

But man I don't know how this thread is a Logiko show. Maybe just less depressing than the warfronts?
 
Socialism is an umbrella term. Abolishing private property and having a state based economy is communism. All communist are socialist but not all socialist are communist. You can call it far left socialism. Almost all communism nations fell apart because they were run by dictators(no I don't support communist nations or economies).
Abolishing private property is a core tenet of socialism tho. In an ideal socialist societies the workers will control the means of production, not some rich capital owner. That includes homes, which can be used to extract profit from the tenants
 
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