Controversial General Political Discussion

[Uncle Van]

That's the thing, "Socialism" is really just another word that means so many different things depending on the kind of leftist ideology. There's even less of a agreed upon definition of wtf that word is supposed to mean and how to properly implement it than fascism and arguably even the supposed endstate after socialism (for Marxists & Anarchist) aka communism. Like seriously, read some influential work of Anarchists and you easily get a different take of what it's supposed to be than if you read Marx, Lenin & Co.,same with old Social Democrats and todays Democratic-Socialists.

In my big post explaining socialist terms and their definitions, I said socialism is an umbrella term.
https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/general-political-discussion.37255/post-5422340

Socialism is just an ideology where the means of production and distribution is controlled by the community as a whole rather than private individuals. Everything else is just different ways of obtaining and applying this ideology.

 

[Monkey D Theories]

I was thinking about this a while back

I don’t think the Zionist movement fulfilled any of the issues it tried to solve.

There’s still antisemitism. Nothing suggests there would be more antisemitism if Israel didn’t exist. Nothing suggest there would somehow be a Holocaust 2.0 if Israel didn’t exist.

Honestly seems like Israel’s actions invoke a significant amount of antisemitism. Antisemitism always spikes after israel commits some war crimes, and the reason Jews had to leave the Muslim world was largely as a response to the Muslim world’s reaction to Israel.

I think Jews are probably more in danger in Israel than they are in the western world. October 7th proves this. So does the Yom Kippur war.

This isn’t to say that I think we need to forcibly destroy Israel, that would create more problems than it solves. But I do think people ought to view Israel’s actions under a lot more scrutiny.

Which I guess is happening now. But since I do spend so much time in the Jewish world I still see a lot of people wanking Israel for no good reason.

 

[Logiko]

Todays "Socialism" is essentially Social Democracy that didn't assimilate with Liberals and Conservatives yet and has got nothing to do with Marxism or Anarchism and the ideological visions of creating "classless" and moneyless society with no borders around the world (they mostly disagree on the methods of achieving the endgoal with the formers most influential branches aka Leninists/Maoists implementing one ruling party to guide through the total transformation of society). It's even a very Nationalist ideology in its core unlike Anarchism and non-Stalin, Mao or Ho-Chi Minh Marxism. Heck, you could even start a conversation on how "Marxism-Leninism" even fits with Marx's Vision, but that doesn't change at the end that these ideologies at least claimed to represent that mans vision and have done some of the worst crimes in human history.

I could go further about how the economic vision of Socialists (starting with Eduard Bernstein, Keynes in 20th century and so on) doesn't align with Marx or Kropotkin, Bakunin and other influential Anarchists at all if there's any kind of interest.

Anyways, whoever said "only far-Leftists did the deporting and masskilling" is likely too far gone in the other direction and slept through history classes like goddamn.

Hitler, Japanese army under fascist emperor banner and Mussolini did some of the most terrible genocides in human history, same with Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot, actually few of the perpretators of the most evil and human life erasing genocides in human history weren't either Fascists or "Marxist-Leninists" and similar branches of Marxism (one of them was King Leopold from Belgium with his ordered genocide in Kongo and other regions in Africa). You're not exactly better for denying atrocities of one of these ideologies who constantly perpetrated these kinds of human atrocities that in part were the reason to create UN in the first place alongside 2 world wars, even if the implementation of it was essentially a failure since it's birth.

Innnnnnnteresting!! A new player has arrived.

I might finally be able to take some holidays !

 

[Roo]

Todays "Socialism" is essentially Social Democracy that didn't assimilate with Liberals and Conservatives yet and has got nothing to do with Marxism or Anarchism and the ideological visions of creating "classless"

No it isn’t and that’s kinda the issue. The countries people love to point as socialist examples are capitalists af lol

a social democrat is a capitalist, and a liberal. Don’t let leftist who love to change their definitions fool you

Post automatically merged: Jun 11, 2024

That's the thing, "Socialism" is really just another word that means so many different things depending on the kind of leftist ideology. There's even less of a agreed upon definition of wtf that word is supposed to mean and how to properly implement it than fascism and arguably even the supposed endstate after socialism (for Marxists & some Anarchist, not Socialists) aka Communism. Like seriously, read some influential work of Anarchists and you easily get a very different take of what it's supposed to be than if you read Marx, Lenin & Co., same with old Social Democrats and todays Democratic-Socialists.

Technically speaking in a Marxist sense socialism is communism. Marx uses those terms interchangeably. Lenin I believe is the fist guy to make the distinction

 

[Logiko]

No it isn’t and that’s kinda the issue. The countries people love to point as socialist examples are capitalists af lol

a social democrat is a capitalist, and a liberal. Don’t let leftist who love to change their definitions fool you

Post automatically merged: Jun 11, 2024

Technically speaking in a Marxist sense socialism is communism. Marx uses those terms interchangeably. Lenin I believe is the fist guy to make the distinction

No one is denying that here mate. You are right, socialism isn't really a thing nowadays. We live a liberal and capitalist societies.

BUT

If I extend the example of what is happening in France right now. The anticapitalistic socialism is not dead yet. We could see the rise of a new kind of leftist in the next few years or decades. The anti-meritocratic agenda is growing slowly. People are starting to wake up on the left.

 

[Roo]

No one is denying that here mate. You are right, socialism isn't really a thing nowadays. We live a liberal and capitalist societies.

BUT

If I extend the example of what is happening in France right now. The anticapitalistic socialism is not dead yet. We could see the rise of a new kind of leftist in the next few years or decades. The anti-meritocratic agenda is growing slowly. People are starting to wake up on the left.

Oh don’t worry, there’s plenty of socialist countries around. Cuba for example

 

[Medeia]

No it isn’t and that’s kinda the issue. The countries people love to point as socialist examples are capitalists af lol

a social democrat is a capitalist, and a liberal. Don’t let leftist who love to change their definitions fool you

Post automatically merged: Jun 11, 2024

Technically speaking in a Marxist sense socialism is communism. Marx uses those terms interchangeably. Lenin I believe is the fist guy to make the distinction

I never said anything different, i also know that Socialism = Communism according to Marx himself, but Marx was just one broader Socialist of his time and even back then the definitions used for the word varied, even before Lenin came around with his distinction and turned Marxism into this one party guiding the working class into socialism but de-facto ruled by one person ideology (in fact Stalin nor Mao would have come around without Lenins work).

Post automatically merged: Jun 11, 2024

Oh don’t worry, there’s plenty of socialist countries around. Cuba for example

Cuba is already reverting into market economy one step at the time since Miguel Diaz became successor of Raul Castro, you can do quick searches if you don't believe it.

 

[Logiko]

Oh don’t worry, there’s plenty of socialist countries around. Cuba for example

I know pretty much nothing about Cuba, so I wouldn't be able to comment on it, sorry. My only experience with this country is that:

 

[Uncle Van]

A Social Democracy falls under unorthodox Marxism, which is a form Marxism so heavily modified that it barely resembles socialism if at all. Social Democracy is just baby captialism, and America used to resemble one about 70 or so years ago. Then the 60’s happened and eventually the 80s.

Attempts to dial back on captialism is nothing but a reset button that eventually returns to shit. Attempts at real socialism lead to great instability causing dictatorships. What to do what to do.

 

[Okamakama]

@Logiko do you feel this way too?

 

[Medeia]

What about this is modern? It's same with right extremists such as MAGA who think anyone disagreeing with their conspiracies, hatred for entire groups of random people (so no terrorist organisations and so on included) etc. is a "liberal" (even obviously conservative people ain't safe from this labeling). Extremist thought always turns into this meme.

 

[Okamakama]

What about this is modern? It's same with right extremists such as MAGA who think anyone disagreeing with their conspiracies, hatred for entire groups of random people (so no terrorist organisations and so on included) etc. is a "liberal" (even obviously conservative people ain't safe from this labeling). Extremist thought always turns into this meme.

Difference is, this is not an issue that is exclusive to right-wing extremism, and I would argue that it has been more acceptable in recent times to be a left-wing extremist than the former. There is a distinct misunderstanding between both groups a lot of the time, and it only fuels the mentality that both sides are pure extremists and that they have no reasonable thoughts.

Let's take what you just said about "hatred for entire groups of random people," into account for a moment. Much like there is the extreme right who thinks anybody who doesn't outright hate them is a "libtard" there are people on the extreme left who believe that if you're not comfortable with importing large swaths of individuals who do not speak the language, respect the country, and even have the same, or similar cultural values to the nation in question, then you are irredeemably far-right and extreme.

I feel we've gotten to a point where the reasonable middle-ground is demonised because of this, quite frankly, idiotic red and blue team mentality. People have become increasingly absolutist in their thoughts. I know some idiots who rally against anything the other side says, even if it's fairly tame or, god forbid, reasonable, simply on the virtue that the other side said it.

The modern day is fucked.

 

[Medeia]

Pretty much agree with most of your post (except left-wing extremism been more accepted most recently, that was rather true in first half or maybe 2/3s of 2010s before you really started to see a right-wing reaction around the world that also emboldened at the start small groups of extremists) and if i could in this forum i'd have given a "friendly" or "empathy" reaction. That's what i meant with Extremism turns into that kinda thought and a black and white of "Ally" vs. all the rest as "Enemies".

 

[Okamakama]

Pretty much agree with most of your post (except left-wing extremism been more accepted most recently, that was rather true in first half or maybe 2/3s of 2010s before you really started to see a right-wing reaction around the world that also emboldened at the start small groups of extremists) and if i could in this forum i'd have given a "friendly" or "empathy" reaction. That's what i meant with Extremism turns into that kinda thought and a black and white of "Ally" vs. all the rest as "Enemies".

You know, I'm willing to concede that point (about left-wing extremism being more acceptable). My mind is still very much captured by some of the extreme leftism I saw in the mid to late 2010s and that may colour my thoughts on what is commonly more acceptable (though I will state that within the zeitgeist, wrong-think against leftist thought is more likely to get you removed from your job than the latter).

I don't particularly see right-wing extremism the same way left-wing individuals do. This concern across Europe about the "right-wing extremists" is heavily overstated. The parties/groups that are coming into the power aren't all far-right. They are just more right than the last 20-30 years. The image I posted is a good example of it, in a sense. I don't think these groups that everyone is now scared of are the same as Hitler. People just don't like that the narrative is shifting from what they believe/have gotten used to.

Unfortunately, we're living in a time where there is suffocating financial issues and mass immigration. People are scared and all I see is left-wing people calling them evil for feeling that way.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

What kind of name is that dude ? I thought you were aryan born

Pure Illyrian-Pelasgian blood with a dash of Greco-Roman
Now that I think of it, if I were to adopt my mom's last name instead I'd probably sound Jewish there is no hope😂😂😂

 

[Okamakama]

Pure Illyrian-Pelasgian blood with a dash of Greco-Roman
Now that I think of it, if I were to adopt my mom's last name instead I'd probably sound Jewish there is no hope😂😂😂

Wait, do you get treated bad in Germany for being that?

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

Wait, do you get treated bad in Germany for being that?

A)I was exaggerating
B)I certainly wouldn't move my permanent residence to east Germany. Wouldn't be a pleasant experience to be surrounded by people who dislike anything and anyone that even remotely looks "eastern" or "Muslim". Tbh Catholic Bavarians are already bad enough in this regard.

 

[Okamakama]

A)I was exaggerating
B)I certainly wouldn't move my permanent residence to east Germany. Wouldn't be a pleasant experience to be surrounded by people who dislike anything and anyone that even remotely looks "eastern" or "Muslim". Tbh Catholic Bavarians are already bad enough in this regard.

I really wasn't aware. Not to dismiss the experience, but are you sure it's not partially in your head? Allow me to explain, since that does sound pretty dismissive...

Basically, I feel a lot of minorities are falling for a rather heinous trap that is partially set by the media (both left-wing and right-wing) to polarise both groups and turn them against each other. They make it an issue that all people on the right hate you for how you look, when I sincerely do not think it's that simple.

I find that most (keyword: MOST) of these people (the supposed right-wing extremists) have nothing against individuals who are evidently respectful of their culture. For example, there is a guy called Mahyar Tousi, an Iranian-born individual, who is adored by the same lot who like Tommy Robinson because he's very respectful towards British culture and it's values.

I find that whilst there are absolutely racists in this world (on all ends of the political spectrum, may I add), for the vast majority, it's rarely about "how they look," and more "how they act." If you clash with the culture, people will reject you, some will fear you, and sadly, some will even hate you.

I don't think it's even a clear-cut issue either. I don't think it's fair to expect people to completely disavow and abandon their old culture, but I also do not agree with mass importing cultural values from other countries, creating pocket communities that only helps exacerbate and feed upon the fears held by many.

All I can say is... I'm sorry that you might have to contend with that in your own country.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

I really wasn't aware. Not to dismiss the experience, but are you sure it's not partially in your head? Allow me to explain, since that does sound pretty dismissive...

Basically, I feel a lot of minorities are falling for a rather heinous trap that is partially set by the media (both left-wing and right-wing) to polarise both groups and turn them against each other. They make it an issue that all people on the right hate you for how you look, when I sincerely do not think it's that simple.

I find that most (keyword: MOST) of these people (the supposed right-wing extremists) have nothing against individuals who are evidently respectful of their culture. For example, there is a guy called Mahyar Tousi, an Iranian-born individual, who is adored by the same lot who like Tommy Robinson because he's very respectful towards British culture and it's values.

Yes my personal experiences were definitely false memories implanted by left wing culture warriors from twitter, even years before twitter and social media was even around.

 

[Okamakama]

Yes my personal experiences were definitely false memories implanted by left wing culture warriors from twitter, even years before twitter and social media was even around.

Not what I meant, dude. Though I get why you'd respond that way.