but its still generally possible to become wealthy based on merit. . .
No it's not. When you deconstruct at look sociologically at the reasons behind said wealth, even in the case where it should be acceptable, you will find out that various forms of capitals and priviledges are playing in the mechanism of the wealth of the person.

It doesn't mean that said person is non deserving, it simply means that she will have access to forms of priviledges that others won't.

The notion of merit is simply a myth.

You are not on the side of rationnality by trying to nuance the concept of meritocracy. You are in a form of denial. You hold up to a system that you think works at least partly. But in reality it does not. Never. Since it's a fantasy, a belief of a system and proprieties of social structure of individuals that does not and will never exist on the planet or the universe.
 
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Which is logical, those who are unable to achieve their goal because of different reasons (social, health, income etc.) are the most likely to question said belief. This doesn't mean that they are wrong. It simply means that they are the ones who are directly impacted.

Meritocracy is a scientific impossibility. You can try to find any kind of possible way to look and defend this belief, but it will never be real.

The reason is simple : Reality and the human society does not work and will never work that way.
In other words:

« I have renounced to try making something out of myself and thus I’m going to blame the world for it rather than try to improve as much as I can. »

Totally not a defeatist mentality, born out of sheer envy, self-hatred and passivity, apologetic towards mediocrity, and leading to stagnancy…
 
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In other words: I have renounced to try making something out of myself and thus I’m going to blame the world for it rather than try to improve as much as I can.
Totally not a defeatist mentality, born out of sheer envy, apologetic towards mediocrity, and leading to stagnancy…
That's usually what you tend to think when you understand that meritocracy and freewill are illusion created to justify or systems and life. It can be problematic to see the world in a positive way at first. It's true. It can even create a form of distanciation with reality.

But those are two fundamental things that we need to understand at one point or another. At least as long as we want to create a better future.

But this is a simple stage of acceptation.

Look at me. Do you feel that I'm trying to promote stagnancy ? Mediocrity ? Delusion ? Aphaty ? Antipathy ? Renouncement ? Giving up ? Negative thoughts ?

Not really. And the reason is simple : While I know that meritocracy is a myth and Free will does not exist, I consider the illusion of Free will as fundamental to live. So yes, I know that when I'm writing here, it's not a will created ex-nihilo that pushes this body to write, it's a simple result of the physical and material laws of nature. But this result is me. I'm choosing to be defined by this result. And therefore, I live fully and in harmony with the illusion of Free Will.

But this also means that I need to get rid of Meritocracy, since this is a system that is not necessary to live. I fact, this is a system and a belief that creates oppression everywhere.

Out of all the people here, I might be the one who is advocating the MOST for change. For the end of the status co. For people here to wake up. For people to learn about politic, media literacy, science, human decency.

I'm the one here who will tell you that it's possible to change when everyone else will tell you that change is not needed.

This means that your fear and reply is not rationnal.

Wanting the end of meritocracy is therefore not the creation of a defeatist mentality. It's the creation of the mentality that tries to think out of the box.

I've literally NEVER seen someone who think that meritocracy is a myth and was not a fundamental social warrior. Either on internet or in the streets.

Defeatism is the acceptation of this mythical belief.

Defeaitism is the unwillingness to question an oppressive and irrationnal system.

Defeatism is the stubborness to defend meritocracy because you saw a few people succeed because of what you think is hard work.
 
That's usually what you tend to think when you understand that meritocracy and freewill are illusion created to justify or systems and life. It can be problematic to see the world in a positive way at first. It's true. It can even create a form of distanciation with reality.

But those are two fundamental things that we need to understand at one point or another. At least as long as we want to create a better future.

But this is a simple stage of acceptation.

Look at me. Do you feel that I'm trying to promote stagnancy ? Mediocrity ? Delusion ? Aphaty ? Antipathy ? Renouncement ? Giving up ? Negative thoughts ?

Not really. And the reason is simple : While I know that meritocracy is a myth and Free will does not exist, I consider the illusion of Free will as fundamental to live. So yes, I know that when I'm writing here, it's not a will created ex-nihilo that pushes this body to write, it's a simple result of the physical and material laws of nature. But this result is me. I'm choosing to be defined by this result. And therefore, I live fully and in harmony with the illusion of Free Will.

But this also means that I need to get rid of Meritocracy, since this is a system that is not necessary to live. I fact, this is a system and a belief that creates oppression everywhere.

Out of all the people here, I might be the one who is advocating the MOST for change. For the end of the status co. For people here to wake up. For people to learn about politic, media literacy, science, human decency.

I'm the one here who will tell you that it's possible to change when everyone else will tell you that change is not needed.

This means that your fear and reply is not rationnal.

Wanting the end of meritocracy is therefore not the creation of a defeatist mentality. It's the creation of the mentality that tries to think out of the box.

I've literally NEVER seen someone who think that meritocracy is a myth and was not a fundamental social warrior. Either on internet or in the streets.

Defeatism is the acceptation of this mythical belief.

Defeaitism is the unwillingness to question an oppressive and irrationnal system.

Defeatism is the stubborness to defend meritocracy because you saw a few people succeed because of what you think is hard work.
The knowledge of it affects the acting.
There are persons who are more skilful, clever, qualified, or who work harder in pursuing their goals, who take better care of themselves and although everyone deserves to be able to live with dignity there’s nothing unjust in the fact that those who were able to find out and develop their talents can enjoy the fruits of their labor*.
If you don’t think so then I think that the worlds in which you and I want to live are different ones.
Sorry but I’m still not persuaded that this isn’t a massive self pitying rant, satisfying a deep seated confirmation bias.

*moreover, how can anything be unjust if our actions are mere scramblings of atoms as you say?
 
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The knowledge of it affects the acting.
There are person who are more skilful, clever, qualified, or who work harder in pursuing their goals, who take better care of themselves and although everyone deserves to be able to live with dignity there’s nothing unjust in the fact that those who were able to find out end develop their talents can enjoy the fruits of their labor*.
If you don’t think so then I think that the worlds in which you and I want to live are different ones.
Sorry but I’m still not persuaded that this isn’t a massive self pitying rant, seeking confirmation bias.

*moreover, how can anything be unjust if our actions are mere scramblings of atoms as you say?
It IS a rant. I'm fighting a belief that creates oppressions.

Your vision of reality (on that specific subject) is too reduced.

You see the skills and the hardwork, but you don't really see the reasons why those skills are there or why hardwork is possible in the first place.

I don't think you watched the video or if you did, you either did not understand it or ignored it because biases.

You need to understand that skills, or efforts do not come in a vacuum. You don't simply get to make effort out of the blue to become better.Here are some example why:

Sometimes, when you make effort, it's not enough : The reasons behind that can be multiple but one of them can simply be the access to information. For example, let's say that you are trained the same number of hours by Zoro and by Mihawk (in the current state of the story). With which trainer will you be able to progress the fastest ? Well the answer is Mihawk, logically. Now, let's say that an hour of training with Mihawk is 100 000 Berry and one hour with Zoro is 100 berry. Well.. I demonstrated to you twith a simple example that the most fortunate will be able to progress faster and more efficiently tha poor people in the One Piece world. ANd like that, you have ONE of thousands of testimony that shows that Meritocracy is BS. In that context, no matter the effort you put in, your effort will simply not be enough because you didn't had the best education.

This education difference in class can be seen everywhere in society. Rich people, will - by simple logic - will have access to the best education there is. Poor people could get lucky with good teachers, but usually, if teachers are not paid well (which happens a lot in the West), they won't push their limits and their teaching, which is logical.

Education is part of the CULTURAL CAPITAL. You can see here, that already there is a difference between people who are born in upper classes in society and those who are born in the working class.

And this was the case just for the QUALITY of the education. Now, let's take about the quality of the educative environement. Do you think that someone who learn in a class of 35 and someone who learns through private school of 20 or less or even private single classes, will have more chances to succeed ? In reality, no. Because on top of the crowding, you need to add the impact of the class differences between studient, class differences that creates bullying and pushes children out of the scholary path.

Now, let's say that you are born in a quite wealthy family.. Well there is the cultural capital striking once again.. some children of the higher class will benefit from activities on the side. Something that will be almost impossible for children coming from poorer families. Those activities will not always the children of the upper classes to create a social circle of OTHER people of the upper or middle class (and thus helping their SOCIAL CAPITAL) but they will also help them be more curious about things and new ideas, be more open to change, to culture, to sciences, to art ETC.

Meanwhile.. the children coming from the working class will be at home watching TV because they have nothing else or in the basket ball field with their friends. Mate... why do you think that in western country popular mass sport like Soccer or Basket will often appeal more to racialized people and minorities rather than white people ? Well... You guess it, Capitalist and systemic racism. Not only systemic racism push minorities into neighboors were those activities are the ONLY available activities for the youth, but capitalism and the difference in classes prevent a lot of those children to get into the activity of White people.

It happens, but it's rare and it's usually the result of a long battle. A battle that rich people (and white people) DON'T get to fight.

SO you really find that just and meritocratic ?

Just so you know, I could give you example of cultural, social and economic capital between classes for HOURS. And I'm sure that if someone were to make the list of those differences, it would fill the ENTIRE 2320 pages of this thread !!

Social inequalities are a REALITY


We do NOT start with the same chances, meaning that some people have it harder than other simply because they are born in poorer families.

Meritocracy means that you can get anything as long as you put an effort into it. But to put the effort, you need to be ABLE to put it, you need to have the right FINANCES too allow you to do that, you need to know the RIGHT person, you need to have the RIGHT teachings and the RIGHT knowledge.

Meritocracy is not meritocratic at all.

It's the belief in a fantasy.

A fantasy that creates oppression, that keeps rich people in the belief that they are more deserving than poor people, that keep poor people from questionning their own situation.

I believe in meritocracy most of my life. But it almost killed me. Thinking that I was not worthy because I was not productive or successfull couldve been the death of me.

And some people live with this fantasy, thinking that it's for the best, when in reality, it's a myth that stop us all from creating a better society.

You want to evolve ? Watch the video once again. With an open mind this time. And then, read some sociology.
 

Uncle Van

Monké Don't Do Taxes
Holy hell no one can be bothered to read all that access fat. Trim it down to something more healthy. Like this:

Capitalism is designed to keep workers poor and the owners rich. CAPITALism is made to help those with capital acquire more of it, while those who don't haven't are chewed up and spit out.

Granted, you can succeed. If you try, it MIGHT happen. If you don't try, it will NEVER happen. And you can lose everything with no fault of your own. This is a system where someone with all the talent and hard work in the world will achieve nothing, while someone with no talent or skill can become rich with nothing but luck. It's very polarizing.

However, the phrase "It's your fault that you're poor. You're struggling simply because you ain't working hard enough" is complete BS. As said before, the system is designed to keep workers poor and suck the capital out their pockets, and you can crash and burn with no fault of your own. There are still lazy bums out there though.
 
Holy hell no one can be bothered to read all that access fat. Trim it down to something more healthy
The goal of this post was to make a point that it was long lol

Meaning that there is so much to say that can debunk the concept of meritocracy that it could fill the 2000 pages of this thread.

In other words, trust the sociology of those who are telling us that it's a myth instead of blindly defending an injust belief.

Capitalism is designed to keep workers poor and the owners rich.
Yes. That's basically the point, but we need to understand why it's that way and why the poor, instead of rising up against Capitalism, are educated to promote that system themselves.

It's all about the ideology.

In fact, today's rich people are politicized enough to be both acting on their interest of class (because they want to keep being rich) AND their ideology (that they are here because they deserve it)

Elon Musk is a parangon of that idea. The guy know his priviledge but he will do everything to defend the idea that merit is the reason why he is where he is today. And of course, 99% of Billionnaires and ultra rich are like him.
 
It IS a rant. I'm fighting a belief that creates oppressions.

Your vision of reality (on that specific subject) is too reduced.

You see the skills and the hardwork, but you don't really see the reasons why those skills are there or why hardwork is possible in the first place.

I don't think you watched the video or if you did, you either did not understand it or ignored it because biases.

You need to understand that skills, or efforts do not come in a vacuum. You don't simply get to make effort out of the blue to become better.Here are some example why:

Sometimes, when you make effort, it's not enough : The reasons behind that can be multiple but one of them can simply be the access to information. For example, let's say that you are trained the same number of hours by Zoro and by Mihawk (in the current state of the story). With which trainer will you be able to progress the fastest ? Well the answer is Mihawk, logically. Now, let's say that an hour of training with Mihawk is 100 000 Berry and one hour with Zoro is 100 berry. Well.. I demonstrated to you twith a simple example that the most fortunate will be able to progress faster and more efficiently tha poor people in the One Piece world. ANd like that, you have ONE of thousands of testimony that shows that Meritocracy is BS. In that context, no matter the effort you put in, your effort will simply not be enough because you didn't had the best education.

This education difference in class can be seen everywhere in society. Rich people, will - by simple logic - will have access to the best education there is. Poor people could get lucky with good teachers, but usually, if teachers are not paid well (which happens a lot in the West), they won't push their limits and their teaching, which is logical.

Education is part of the CULTURAL CAPITAL. You can see here, that already there is a difference between people who are born in upper classes in society and those who are born in the working class.

And this was the case just for the QUALITY of the education. Now, let's take about the quality of the educative environement. Do you think that someone who learn in a class of 35 and someone who learns through private school of 20 or less or even private single classes, will have more chances to succeed ? In reality, no. Because on top of the crowding, you need to add the impact of the class differences between studient, class differences that creates bullying and pushes children out of the scholary path.

Now, let's say that you are born in a quite wealthy family.. Well there is the cultural capital striking once again.. some children of the higher class will benefit from activities on the side. Something that will be almost impossible for children coming from poorer families. Those activities will not always the children of the upper classes to create a social circle of OTHER people of the upper or middle class (and thus helping their SOCIAL CAPITAL) but they will also help them be more curious about things and new ideas, be more open to change, to culture, to sciences, to art ETC.

Meanwhile.. the children coming from the working class will be at home watching TV because they have nothing else or in the basket ball field with their friends. Mate... why do you think that in western country popular mass sport like Soccer or Basket will often appeal more to racialized people and minorities rather than white people ? Well... You guess it, Capitalist and systemic racism. Not only systemic racism push minorities into neighboors were those activities are the ONLY available activities for the youth, but capitalism and the difference in classes prevent a lot of those children to get into the activity of White people.

It happens, but it's rare and it's usually the result of a long battle. A battle that rich people (and white people) DON'T get to fight.

SO you really find that just and meritocratic ?

Just so you know, I could give you example of cultural, social and economic capital between classes for HOURS. And I'm sure that if someone were to make the list of those differences, it would fill the ENTIRE 2320 pages of this thread !!

Social inequalities are a REALITY

We do NOT start with the same chances, meaning that some people have it harder than other simply because they are born in poorer families.

Meritocracy means that you can get anything as long as you put an effort into it. But to put the effort, you need to be ABLE to put it, you need to have the right FINANCES too allow you to do that, you need to know the RIGHT person, you need to have the RIGHT teachings and the RIGHT knowledge.

Meritocracy is not meritocratic at all.

It's the belief in a fantasy.

A fantasy that creates oppression, that keeps rich people in the belief that they are more deserving than poor people, that keep poor people from questionning their own situation.

I believe in meritocracy most of my life. But it almost killed me. Thinking that I was not worthy because I was not productive or successfull couldve been the death of me.

And some people live with this fantasy, thinking that it's for the best, when in reality, it's a myth that stop us all from creating a better society.

You want to evolve ? Watch the video once again. With an open mind this time. And then, read some sociology.
Do you know that there are working class people who actually succeeded at elevating themselves, do you? Because they were talented and worked hard to be where there are, instead of whining and blaming « the system »?
Those who keep telling themselves that they are powerless ends up becoming such.

Moreover, if someone worked hard their entire lives*, why in the heck shouldn’t their children benefit from it?
* of course I’m not oblivious of the fact that there are people who got where they are through nepotism, favouritism and illicit means, but this is exactly antithetical to the meritocracy I’m advocating for.
 
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