Controversial General Political Discussion
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The knowledge of it affects the acting.
There are persons who are more skilful, clever, qualified, or who work harder in pursuing their goals, who take better care of themselves and although everyone deserves to be able to live with dignity there’s nothing unjust in the fact that those who were able to find out and develop their talents can enjoy the fruits of their labor*.
If you don’t think so then I think that the worlds in which you and I want to live are different ones.
Sorry but I’m still not persuaded that this isn’t a massive self pitying rant, satisfying a deep seated confirmation bias.
*moreover, how can anything be unjust if our actions are mere scramblings of atoms as you say?
There are persons who are more skilful, clever, qualified, or who work harder in pursuing their goals, who take better care of themselves and although everyone deserves to be able to live with dignity there’s nothing unjust in the fact that those who were able to find out and develop their talents can enjoy the fruits of their labor*.
If you don’t think so then I think that the worlds in which you and I want to live are different ones.
Sorry but I’m still not persuaded that this isn’t a massive self pitying rant, satisfying a deep seated confirmation bias.
*moreover, how can anything be unjust if our actions are mere scramblings of atoms as you say?
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It IS a rant. I'm fighting a belief that creates oppressions.
Your vision of reality (on that specific subject) is too reduced.
You see the skills and the hardwork, but you don't really see the reasons why those skills are there or why hardwork is possible in the first place.
I don't think you watched the video or if you did, you either did not understand it or ignored it because biases.
You need to understand that skills, or efforts do not come in a vacuum. You don't simply get to make effort out of the blue to become better.Here are some example why:
Sometimes, when you make effort, it's not enough : The reasons behind that can be multiple but one of them can simply be the access to information. For example, let's say that you are trained the same number of hours by Zoro and by Mihawk (in the current state of the story). With which trainer will you be able to progress the fastest ? Well the answer is Mihawk, logically. Now, let's say that an hour of training with Mihawk is 100 000 Berry and one hour with Zoro is 100 berry. Well.. I demonstrated to you twith a simple example that the most fortunate will be able to progress faster and more efficiently tha poor people in the One Piece world. ANd like that, you have ONE of thousands of testimony that shows that Meritocracy is BS. In that context, no matter the effort you put in, your effort will simply not be enough because you didn't had the best education.
This education difference in class can be seen everywhere in society. Rich people, will - by simple logic - will have access to the best education there is. Poor people could get lucky with good teachers, but usually, if teachers are not paid well (which happens a lot in the West), they won't push their limits and their teaching, which is logical.
Education is part of the CULTURAL CAPITAL. You can see here, that already there is a difference between people who are born in upper classes in society and those who are born in the working class.
And this was the case just for the QUALITY of the education. Now, let's take about the quality of the educative environement. Do you think that someone who learn in a class of 35 and someone who learns through private school of 20 or less or even private single classes, will have more chances to succeed ? In reality, no. Because on top of the crowding, you need to add the impact of the class differences between studient, class differences that creates bullying and pushes children out of the scholary path.
Now, let's say that you are born in a quite wealthy family.. Well there is the cultural capital striking once again.. some children of the higher class will benefit from activities on the side. Something that will be almost impossible for children coming from poorer families. Those activities will not always the children of the upper classes to create a social circle of OTHER people of the upper or middle class (and thus helping their SOCIAL CAPITAL) but they will also help them be more curious about things and new ideas, be more open to change, to culture, to sciences, to art ETC.
Meanwhile.. the children coming from the working class will be at home watching TV because they have nothing else or in the basket ball field with their friends. Mate... why do you think that in western country popular mass sport like Soccer or Basket will often appeal more to racialized people and minorities rather than white people ? Well... You guess it, Capitalist and systemic racism. Not only systemic racism push minorities into neighboors were those activities are the ONLY available activities for the youth, but capitalism and the difference in classes prevent a lot of those children to get into the activity of White people.
It happens, but it's rare and it's usually the result of a long battle. A battle that rich people (and white people) DON'T get to fight.
SO you really find that just and meritocratic ?
Just so you know, I could give you example of cultural, social and economic capital between classes for HOURS. And I'm sure that if someone were to make the list of those differences, it would fill the ENTIRE 2320 pages of this thread !!
Social inequalities are a REALITY
We do NOT start with the same chances, meaning that some people have it harder than other simply because they are born in poorer families.
Meritocracy means that you can get anything as long as you put an effort into it. But to put the effort, you need to be ABLE to put it, you need to have the right FINANCES too allow you to do that, you need to know the RIGHT person, you need to have the RIGHT teachings and the RIGHT knowledge.
Meritocracy is not meritocratic at all.
It's the belief in a fantasy.
A fantasy that creates oppression, that keeps rich people in the belief that they are more deserving than poor people, that keep poor people from questionning their own situation.
I believe in meritocracy most of my life. But it almost killed me. Thinking that I was not worthy because I was not productive or successfull couldve been the death of me.
And some people live with this fantasy, thinking that it's for the best, when in reality, it's a myth that stop us all from creating a better society.
You want to evolve ? Watch the video once again. With an open mind this time. And then, read some sociology.
Your vision of reality (on that specific subject) is too reduced.
You see the skills and the hardwork, but you don't really see the reasons why those skills are there or why hardwork is possible in the first place.
I don't think you watched the video or if you did, you either did not understand it or ignored it because biases.
You need to understand that skills, or efforts do not come in a vacuum. You don't simply get to make effort out of the blue to become better.Here are some example why:
Sometimes, when you make effort, it's not enough : The reasons behind that can be multiple but one of them can simply be the access to information. For example, let's say that you are trained the same number of hours by Zoro and by Mihawk (in the current state of the story). With which trainer will you be able to progress the fastest ? Well the answer is Mihawk, logically. Now, let's say that an hour of training with Mihawk is 100 000 Berry and one hour with Zoro is 100 berry. Well.. I demonstrated to you twith a simple example that the most fortunate will be able to progress faster and more efficiently tha poor people in the One Piece world. ANd like that, you have ONE of thousands of testimony that shows that Meritocracy is BS. In that context, no matter the effort you put in, your effort will simply not be enough because you didn't had the best education.
This education difference in class can be seen everywhere in society. Rich people, will - by simple logic - will have access to the best education there is. Poor people could get lucky with good teachers, but usually, if teachers are not paid well (which happens a lot in the West), they won't push their limits and their teaching, which is logical.
Education is part of the CULTURAL CAPITAL. You can see here, that already there is a difference between people who are born in upper classes in society and those who are born in the working class.
And this was the case just for the QUALITY of the education. Now, let's take about the quality of the educative environement. Do you think that someone who learn in a class of 35 and someone who learns through private school of 20 or less or even private single classes, will have more chances to succeed ? In reality, no. Because on top of the crowding, you need to add the impact of the class differences between studient, class differences that creates bullying and pushes children out of the scholary path.
Now, let's say that you are born in a quite wealthy family.. Well there is the cultural capital striking once again.. some children of the higher class will benefit from activities on the side. Something that will be almost impossible for children coming from poorer families. Those activities will not always the children of the upper classes to create a social circle of OTHER people of the upper or middle class (and thus helping their SOCIAL CAPITAL) but they will also help them be more curious about things and new ideas, be more open to change, to culture, to sciences, to art ETC.
Meanwhile.. the children coming from the working class will be at home watching TV because they have nothing else or in the basket ball field with their friends. Mate... why do you think that in western country popular mass sport like Soccer or Basket will often appeal more to racialized people and minorities rather than white people ? Well... You guess it, Capitalist and systemic racism. Not only systemic racism push minorities into neighboors were those activities are the ONLY available activities for the youth, but capitalism and the difference in classes prevent a lot of those children to get into the activity of White people.
It happens, but it's rare and it's usually the result of a long battle. A battle that rich people (and white people) DON'T get to fight.
SO you really find that just and meritocratic ?
Just so you know, I could give you example of cultural, social and economic capital between classes for HOURS. And I'm sure that if someone were to make the list of those differences, it would fill the ENTIRE 2320 pages of this thread !!
Social inequalities are a REALITY
We do NOT start with the same chances, meaning that some people have it harder than other simply because they are born in poorer families.
Meritocracy means that you can get anything as long as you put an effort into it. But to put the effort, you need to be ABLE to put it, you need to have the right FINANCES too allow you to do that, you need to know the RIGHT person, you need to have the RIGHT teachings and the RIGHT knowledge.
Meritocracy is not meritocratic at all.
It's the belief in a fantasy.
A fantasy that creates oppression, that keeps rich people in the belief that they are more deserving than poor people, that keep poor people from questionning their own situation.
I believe in meritocracy most of my life. But it almost killed me. Thinking that I was not worthy because I was not productive or successfull couldve been the death of me.
And some people live with this fantasy, thinking that it's for the best, when in reality, it's a myth that stop us all from creating a better society.
You want to evolve ? Watch the video once again. With an open mind this time. And then, read some sociology.
Holy hell no one can be bothered to read all that access fat. Trim it down to something more healthy. Like this:
Capitalism is designed to keep workers poor and the owners rich. CAPITALism is made to help those with capital acquire more of it, while those who don't haven't are chewed up and spit out.
Granted, you can succeed. If you try, it MIGHT happen. If you don't try, it will NEVER happen. And you can lose everything with no fault of your own. This is a system where someone with all the talent and hard work in the world will achieve nothing, while someone with no talent or skill can become rich with nothing but luck. It's very polarizing.
However, the phrase "It's your fault that you're poor. You're struggling simply because you ain't working hard enough" is complete BS. As said before, the system is designed to keep workers poor and suck the capital out their pockets, and you can crash and burn with no fault of your own. There are still lazy bums out there though.
Capitalism is designed to keep workers poor and the owners rich. CAPITALism is made to help those with capital acquire more of it, while those who don't haven't are chewed up and spit out.
Granted, you can succeed. If you try, it MIGHT happen. If you don't try, it will NEVER happen. And you can lose everything with no fault of your own. This is a system where someone with all the talent and hard work in the world will achieve nothing, while someone with no talent or skill can become rich with nothing but luck. It's very polarizing.
However, the phrase "It's your fault that you're poor. You're struggling simply because you ain't working hard enough" is complete BS. As said before, the system is designed to keep workers poor and suck the capital out their pockets, and you can crash and burn with no fault of your own. There are still lazy bums out there though.
The goal of this post was to make a point that it was long lol
Meaning that there is so much to say that can debunk the concept of meritocracy that it could fill the 2000 pages of this thread.
In other words, trust the sociology of those who are telling us that it's a myth instead of blindly defending an injust belief.
Yes. That's basically the point, but we need to understand why it's that way and why the poor, instead of rising up against Capitalism, are educated to promote that system themselves.
It's all about the ideology.
In fact, today's rich people are politicized enough to be both acting on their interest of class (because they want to keep being rich) AND their ideology (that they are here because they deserve it)
Elon Musk is a parangon of that idea. The guy know his priviledge but he will do everything to defend the idea that merit is the reason why he is where he is today. And of course, 99% of Billionnaires and ultra rich are like him.
Meaning that there is so much to say that can debunk the concept of meritocracy that it could fill the 2000 pages of this thread.
In other words, trust the sociology of those who are telling us that it's a myth instead of blindly defending an injust belief.
Yes. That's basically the point, but we need to understand why it's that way and why the poor, instead of rising up against Capitalism, are educated to promote that system themselves.
It's all about the ideology.
In fact, today's rich people are politicized enough to be both acting on their interest of class (because they want to keep being rich) AND their ideology (that they are here because they deserve it)
Elon Musk is a parangon of that idea. The guy know his priviledge but he will do everything to defend the idea that merit is the reason why he is where he is today. And of course, 99% of Billionnaires and ultra rich are like him.
Do you know that there are working class people who actually succeeded at elevating themselves, do you? Because they were talented and worked hard to be where there are, instead of whining and blaming « the system »?
Those who keep telling themselves that they are powerless ends up becoming such.
Moreover, if someone worked hard their entire lives*, why in the heck shouldn’t their children benefit from it?
* of course I’m not oblivious of the fact that there are people who got where they are through nepotism, favouritism and illicit means, but this is exactly antithetical to the meritocracy I’m advocating for.
Those who keep telling themselves that they are powerless ends up becoming such.
Moreover, if someone worked hard their entire lives*, why in the heck shouldn’t their children benefit from it?
* of course I’m not oblivious of the fact that there are people who got where they are through nepotism, favouritism and illicit means, but this is exactly antithetical to the meritocracy I’m advocating for.
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Yes. In sociology we call people who """"succeed"""" (this word in itself is problematic), "Transclass". These are people who will go from the lower to the upper classes.
Spoiler : They are exceptions. And they do no negate the absence of meritocracy.
Those are people that has either the right tools exactly at the right moment or met the right people, or did EXACTLY what they needed to do. Something that most people can't simply because it's like trying to shot a fly with a gun from one kilometer away.
There is no such thing as "talent". There are geniuses, granted. People like Einstein or Mozart for example (and usually in only one domain). Those are people who have just a connectivity in the brain that is beyond what is possible on average...
... And there is the rest of people. Those people will need luck to "succeed".
I demonstrated to you that working hard is simply an illusion. You might work hard but depending on MANY factors, the fact of working will not have the same effect depending on the context, the income, the social capital, the cultural capital, the economic capital etc.
You can stay in denial if you want, or I can keep explaining this to you for hours..... or you can simply read some science and researcher who are working on those notion... to understand how reality work.
Yeah. Well, I'll give you a challenge. I want you to work very hard and be able to win 50 000 € a month before the end of this year. DO you think you are capable of that ?
Maybe .. so let's up that shall we ? I challenge you to become a Billionnaire before 2027. Can you do that ? Should be easy since working hard is the only factor to create "success", right ?
I'm sure people working in factories are asking the same question... sadly, they have not much to give to their children.. would you say that they are not "working hard" enough ?
That's what meritocracy is mate. Nepotism, favouritism, and inheritence.
Depending on where you are born: You will either have great social, economic, cultural capital or you won't. And this will influence the way you will be placed in society.
So it's time to change that. And end the belief in meritocracy that prevent some people from becoming wealthy.
Spoiler : They are exceptions. And they do no negate the absence of meritocracy.
Those are people that has either the right tools exactly at the right moment or met the right people, or did EXACTLY what they needed to do. Something that most people can't simply because it's like trying to shot a fly with a gun from one kilometer away.
There is no such thing as "talent". There are geniuses, granted. People like Einstein or Mozart for example (and usually in only one domain). Those are people who have just a connectivity in the brain that is beyond what is possible on average...
... And there is the rest of people. Those people will need luck to "succeed".
I demonstrated to you that working hard is simply an illusion. You might work hard but depending on MANY factors, the fact of working will not have the same effect depending on the context, the income, the social capital, the cultural capital, the economic capital etc.
You can stay in denial if you want, or I can keep explaining this to you for hours..... or you can simply read some science and researcher who are working on those notion... to understand how reality work.
Yeah. Well, I'll give you a challenge. I want you to work very hard and be able to win 50 000 € a month before the end of this year. DO you think you are capable of that ?
Maybe .. so let's up that shall we ? I challenge you to become a Billionnaire before 2027. Can you do that ? Should be easy since working hard is the only factor to create "success", right ?
I'm sure people working in factories are asking the same question... sadly, they have not much to give to their children.. would you say that they are not "working hard" enough ?
That's what meritocracy is mate. Nepotism, favouritism, and inheritence.
Depending on where you are born: You will either have great social, economic, cultural capital or you won't. And this will influence the way you will be placed in society.
So it's time to change that. And end the belief in meritocracy that prevent some people from becoming wealthy.
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Here i’m going to make my last addition to this fruitless discussion.
It’s for all the disparities you keep talking about that things such as scholarships, Welfare ecc. exists, to allow people who do not have a head start to be given the chances to learn and develop. Then, after that the said people will have to commit, of course they will likely have to work harder than others, but theoretically meritocracy consists exactly in rewarding these efforts ( students with good results getting scholarships for good universities ecc.) and this yet unreached goal is in my opinion something to strive for rather then scorn. People should be encouraged to find out and cultivate their strenghts and develop and make something of themselves. That’s what a rewarding life is, everything else is just coping. A healthy society is the one which creates the conditions through which everyone is provided the resources to achieve their potential* but the individual has also the personal responsibility to make the best of these resources, and sometimes if s/he isn’t where s/he would like to be is because s/he did not manage to get there.
In every possible environment there will always be someone who will make the best use of what s/he has and obtain better result. Sometimes those who can’t cope with this reality have not been robbed by some evil system, but they just failed and the failure is all theirs. Meritocracy is but the recognition of excellence (a lazy idiot will stay a lazy idiot despite all daddy’s money), of all individual’s abilities, talents, potential and possibilities, something whose pursuit makes life worthwhile.
That’s it, I’ll say no more. Avoid sharing more cherrypicked contents from questionable sources through which you can feel better about having given up on life.
It’s for all the disparities you keep talking about that things such as scholarships, Welfare ecc. exists, to allow people who do not have a head start to be given the chances to learn and develop. Then, after that the said people will have to commit, of course they will likely have to work harder than others, but theoretically meritocracy consists exactly in rewarding these efforts ( students with good results getting scholarships for good universities ecc.) and this yet unreached goal is in my opinion something to strive for rather then scorn. People should be encouraged to find out and cultivate their strenghts and develop and make something of themselves. That’s what a rewarding life is, everything else is just coping. A healthy society is the one which creates the conditions through which everyone is provided the resources to achieve their potential* but the individual has also the personal responsibility to make the best of these resources, and sometimes if s/he isn’t where s/he would like to be is because s/he did not manage to get there.
In every possible environment there will always be someone who will make the best use of what s/he has and obtain better result. Sometimes those who can’t cope with this reality have not been robbed by some evil system, but they just failed and the failure is all theirs. Meritocracy is but the recognition of excellence (a lazy idiot will stay a lazy idiot despite all daddy’s money), of all individual’s abilities, talents, potential and possibilities, something whose pursuit makes life worthwhile.
That’s it, I’ll say no more. Avoid sharing more cherrypicked contents from questionable sources through which you can feel better about having given up on life.
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