Controversial General Political Discussion
- Thread starter AL sama
- Start date
- Tags #freepalestine #votebluenomatterwhat are you having fun al? are you having van al? gaolang > your fav imagine thinking trump is the good guy is not paying tax sexist is van having fun al? it's over for trump life goal sister harem loli mfw kamala harris can actually win real madrid reloaded is innocent tax is the best thing ever happened to us trans rights = human rights trans women are not interested in any of you worst thread ever
That's what you are doing exatly here
You do know that I'm talking about a human life here and not just a potential life that is a foetus. Also I don't think you want this debate again mate.
Start by understanding what I'm telling you and stop trying to find excuses to avoid reality.
No. What you said is "death penalty removes dangerous criminals", I replied, no. it does not. In fact it creates more. Death penalty is useless. it solves nothing.
There is two level two my argumentation:
- The basic level: "We can make the right choice" this is meant to vulgarize the fact that in the right condition, we can make the right choices and thus the right actions. This level is necessary to speak in day to day times if we don't really think deeply about creating a good society. In this level, we stay in the illusion of freewill.
But if we want to really start talking about creating a new system, we need to speak on a new level. Hence, when I'm talking about the pointlessness of prisons, I'm talking in this level : The absolute level.
- The absolute level: In this level, we take the form of reality as it is into account. Meaning by that that we take into account the fact that free will does not exist. And as such, responsibility is a social construct to compensate the inadequations of society in front of the absence of free will. On this level we do not say "we can make the right choice" but "the right choice can only be made with the right material conditions of existence".
In other word, on the absolute level of argumentation, we talk about a world where people do not have any choice when they make a bad descision as those choice are related to their material condition of existence. This creates a situation where the act of punishment is rendered pointless, idiotic, nonsensical.
For example (and here I'm talking on the absolute level) , in our world a man will rape a woman not because he makes the choice to rape but because he :
- Was born in a patriarcal society
- Lacked the proper sensibilization education to understand the notion of consent
- Was borned in a society that push people to seek power and control, even through agressions
- Was influenced by a lack of perception and a lack of emotionnal intelligence (things that can be teached)
- Was emotionnaly not in the mindset to think about the consequences on this one occasion
- Was influenced by rape culture all his life and somehow found interest in it
- Adopted over the time a very toxic lifestyle and relationship with women
- Because he might have a sensibility to harmfull behaviors
Etc.
There are a LOT of reasons and in most cases all thoses reasons have 2 majors denominators for this situation:
- Capitalism
- Patriarchy
The idea is to get rid of both to create a system where, not only creating a world where justice will not be a negative action added on a negative action, but a positive change. BUT ALSO a society when negative actions like rapes will be unlikely to happen to begin with.
Creating a new and better society will be like a double protection.
My point exactly. They do it anyway. That's the entire point. I'm glad your are pointing that.
Criminals KNOW that what they are doing is wrong (well, not always, but a lot of them does) and yet.. they do it anyway.
This means that knowing that we are doing something bad is not enough to make us change. And therefore this shows that the concept of Choice is NOT relevant when we talk about crimes.
Let me give you an image with a situation of imminent menace:
You were kidnapped by X. There is a red button in front of you. X gives you an ultimatum:
> If you press the button before the next 5 seconds, a random innocent person in the world will suffer a serious consequence (a loss of limbs) but not mortal
> If you don't press it, several members of your family or someone very close to you will suffer torture and death and a nuclear bomb will be dropped on a random capital of the world.
In this imaginary situation, you KNOW that X is not joking.
What did you do ?
If you tell me "nothing": You saved that innocent person from losing an arm, but a few members of your family just died and Jakarta was just eradicated.
If you tell me: "I pushed the button" : Good job, you saved millions but the daughter of your neighbor just lost her two legs and one arm.
As you can see you are responsible for a bad thing AND an ethical action at the same time. You KNEW that pushing the button would be wrong (for the innocent person) but you did it anyway.
Did it click ?
Ok then, let's try another imaginary situation:
You are attached in a wooden room that is on fire, if you do nothing you will burn alive and die in horrible main. You have only one escape path possible: a door in front of you that leads to outside..
In you pass the door, you know that a switch will be triggered to activate a technology that will transform the brain chemistry of a random baby in the world to give them panic attacks all their life everytime they will see a the color blue or a variant of it.
What did you do ?
If you sacrifized yourself.. well.. I hope it wasn't too paintfull.. but if you entered the room, well, too bad, a baby will have a hard life because of you.
-----
What i'm trying to show you here is the irrelevance of the concept of choice. Choice is an illusion. There will ALWAYS be a lot of parameters that will influence your choice and most of the time they will be made to please you and give you rewards even if you know that those choice are bad you will not be able to stop yourself, because in those situation, there will be a fire inside of you that will push you to do it anyway.
Said fire is the result of a toxic system and as such it can be instinguish through education or a new proper system, but when it's here, it's here.
Even if you tell a robber that what they are doing is wrong, they think it's the only way for them to survive. If you tell a rapists that raping is wrong, they will not understand because they do not understand and have not integrated the principle of consent.
And so.. punishing them is useless and pointless, because no matter what, their material conditions of existence would have push them to do those things anyway just like it would push all of us to do those things in the same material conditions of existence.
A little sentence always need a long explanation. But I really hope this one makes you understand.
You do know that I'm talking about a human life here and not just a potential life that is a foetus. Also I don't think you want this debate again mate.
Start by understanding what I'm telling you and stop trying to find excuses to avoid reality.
No. What you said is "death penalty removes dangerous criminals", I replied, no. it does not. In fact it creates more. Death penalty is useless. it solves nothing.
There is two level two my argumentation:
- The basic level: "We can make the right choice" this is meant to vulgarize the fact that in the right condition, we can make the right choices and thus the right actions. This level is necessary to speak in day to day times if we don't really think deeply about creating a good society. In this level, we stay in the illusion of freewill.
But if we want to really start talking about creating a new system, we need to speak on a new level. Hence, when I'm talking about the pointlessness of prisons, I'm talking in this level : The absolute level.
- The absolute level: In this level, we take the form of reality as it is into account. Meaning by that that we take into account the fact that free will does not exist. And as such, responsibility is a social construct to compensate the inadequations of society in front of the absence of free will. On this level we do not say "we can make the right choice" but "the right choice can only be made with the right material conditions of existence".
In other word, on the absolute level of argumentation, we talk about a world where people do not have any choice when they make a bad descision as those choice are related to their material condition of existence. This creates a situation where the act of punishment is rendered pointless, idiotic, nonsensical.
For example (and here I'm talking on the absolute level) , in our world a man will rape a woman not because he makes the choice to rape but because he :
- Was born in a patriarcal society
- Lacked the proper sensibilization education to understand the notion of consent
- Was borned in a society that push people to seek power and control, even through agressions
- Was influenced by a lack of perception and a lack of emotionnal intelligence (things that can be teached)
- Was emotionnaly not in the mindset to think about the consequences on this one occasion
- Was influenced by rape culture all his life and somehow found interest in it
- Adopted over the time a very toxic lifestyle and relationship with women
- Because he might have a sensibility to harmfull behaviors
Etc.
There are a LOT of reasons and in most cases all thoses reasons have 2 majors denominators for this situation:
- Capitalism
- Patriarchy
The idea is to get rid of both to create a system where, not only creating a world where justice will not be a negative action added on a negative action, but a positive change. BUT ALSO a society when negative actions like rapes will be unlikely to happen to begin with.
Creating a new and better society will be like a double protection.
My point exactly. They do it anyway. That's the entire point. I'm glad your are pointing that.
Criminals KNOW that what they are doing is wrong (well, not always, but a lot of them does) and yet.. they do it anyway.
This means that knowing that we are doing something bad is not enough to make us change. And therefore this shows that the concept of Choice is NOT relevant when we talk about crimes.
Let me give you an image with a situation of imminent menace:
You were kidnapped by X. There is a red button in front of you. X gives you an ultimatum:
> If you press the button before the next 5 seconds, a random innocent person in the world will suffer a serious consequence (a loss of limbs) but not mortal
> If you don't press it, several members of your family or someone very close to you will suffer torture and death and a nuclear bomb will be dropped on a random capital of the world.
In this imaginary situation, you KNOW that X is not joking.
What did you do ?
If you tell me "nothing": You saved that innocent person from losing an arm, but a few members of your family just died and Jakarta was just eradicated.
If you tell me: "I pushed the button" : Good job, you saved millions but the daughter of your neighbor just lost her two legs and one arm.
As you can see you are responsible for a bad thing AND an ethical action at the same time. You KNEW that pushing the button would be wrong (for the innocent person) but you did it anyway.
Did it click ?
Ok then, let's try another imaginary situation:
You are attached in a wooden room that is on fire, if you do nothing you will burn alive and die in horrible main. You have only one escape path possible: a door in front of you that leads to outside..
In you pass the door, you know that a switch will be triggered to activate a technology that will transform the brain chemistry of a random baby in the world to give them panic attacks all their life everytime they will see a the color blue or a variant of it.
What did you do ?
If you sacrifized yourself.. well.. I hope it wasn't too paintfull.. but if you entered the room, well, too bad, a baby will have a hard life because of you.
-----
What i'm trying to show you here is the irrelevance of the concept of choice. Choice is an illusion. There will ALWAYS be a lot of parameters that will influence your choice and most of the time they will be made to please you and give you rewards even if you know that those choice are bad you will not be able to stop yourself, because in those situation, there will be a fire inside of you that will push you to do it anyway.
Said fire is the result of a toxic system and as such it can be instinguish through education or a new proper system, but when it's here, it's here.
Even if you tell a robber that what they are doing is wrong, they think it's the only way for them to survive. If you tell a rapists that raping is wrong, they will not understand because they do not understand and have not integrated the principle of consent.
And so.. punishing them is useless and pointless, because no matter what, their material conditions of existence would have push them to do those things anyway just like it would push all of us to do those things in the same material conditions of existence.
A little sentence always need a long explanation. But I really hope this one makes you understand.
You say there is no balancing, but a murderer being sentenced to death sure appears to be balanced, no?
Take $100, return $100? Take life, give life? If there is some imbalance as you say, where is it within the instance of a murderer receiving the death penalty?
In any case, this preachy stance you take is nothing more than a dilluted understanding of what punishment is. Like a child you reduce it down to mere "negativity" and ignore that within punishment, there is a positive, because through punishment repentance may be made.
Punishment, when enacted by a legitimate authority and carried out in due proportion to the crime committed, has several effects
1. Restoration of Justice (Vindication of the Law)
2.) Deterrent of future crimes
3.) Repentance of the offender
To forego punishment is the definition of an idealistic and interchangeable outlook on all aspects of reality prevalent within leftism
So yes, I would owe you an apology just through my actions. Nice going
Then you should believe in retribution and punishment in it's proper place, which is a cause for change
Fetuses are humans, just at a lower stage of development
Take $100, return $100? Take life, give life? If there is some imbalance as you say, where is it within the instance of a murderer receiving the death penalty?
In any case, this preachy stance you take is nothing more than a dilluted understanding of what punishment is. Like a child you reduce it down to mere "negativity" and ignore that within punishment, there is a positive, because through punishment repentance may be made.
Punishment, when enacted by a legitimate authority and carried out in due proportion to the crime committed, has several effects
1. Restoration of Justice (Vindication of the Law)
2.) Deterrent of future crimes
3.) Repentance of the offender
To forego punishment is the definition of an idealistic and interchangeable outlook on all aspects of reality prevalent within leftism
So yes, I would owe you an apology just through my actions. Nice going
Then you should believe in retribution and punishment in it's proper place, which is a cause for change
Post automatically merged:
Fetuses are humans, just at a lower stage of development
Last edited:
No. The balance is negative. There is no equilibrium.
The person murder someone > Horrible act with horrible consequences. > The balance tips toward the negative
The person is sentenced to death > End of a life and a potential for good > No positive here, another tip toward the negative.
Punishments are double negative. The action + the punishment. If you think the relief of killing or punishing someone is enough to balance an horrible action then there is a problem and this is not justice but the research for blood.
Justice must creates balance.
Which means that for the horrible act commited, the system must compensate by a lot of good action. This means:
> The complete care of the person inflicted by the loss or the victim.
> The care for the person who commited the act toward an change of behavior.
In other words, the system must understand the material reality of the world and apply it to both side. And to restore balance, only two positive actions can happen. Not negative ones.
I know it's hard to understand that. And maybe it's easier for me because I was condtionned to think that way because of SF very early on. But if we want to change the system, we must not simply change the structure, but also the way we see the system.
We must not think outside of the box. We must understand that the box does not exist.
Try that for 10000 more years, we will see if you manage to create a functionning society.
Sure.
It's ironic how you think I'm the child in this situation.
Look closely to what you just said. You are still thinking that choices are what you make of it. So of course, you think that punishment can bring repentence. And.. in fact, it's true, it can... in OUR referencial.
In reality, it only can because our world is constructed in such a way that people THINK that to get repentance, you should be punished.
In reality, you are the child in this situation. You are talking with the words that comes from the old version and vision of the world, the one that we teach all younglins : "Suffering makes penitence"
While this is a cute concept, a good society should not function like that. This is highly inneficient. A just society should understand that choices are NOT what you make of it and that choices are dependant of your material conditions of existence and so.. punishment is pointless and nonsensical in front of a bad choice.
To make society better we need to see beyond your old fashion vision of punishment. We need to see beyond the illusion of free will and integrate it in our day to day reality. At least in the structures of our systems. And so, if someone murder another.. everyone will understand that change is the way to go, punishment will not be applied because punishment is not necessary for the good of neither the victim or the good of society.
I know it's hard to think about paradise in a concrete way. The first times were also really strange for me back in the dayz. But it's not just a random wish...
This is what can happen in a very concrete manner, if we manage to change the structures of society and abolish the fundamentals systems of oppressions in the world.
---
It's funny because there is a lot of people here who believe in paradise, not understanding that it could become a reality in the material world, on earth, in less than 100 years, if everyone was able to understand a few materialistic concepts.
No mate. That's what you do not understand AT ALL.
Idealism is the action of thinking the world through the vision that your mind influence your environment and the material conditions of your world.
Idealism IS an illusion.
Idealism IS thinking that punishment will prevent your from doing crimes.
It.
Does.
NOT.
I proved that with the post above when talking to @Monkey D Theories but it was also demonstrated here: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html
> Idealism is the OPPOSITE of a rationnal vision of the world.
> Thinking that punishment is necessary to create justice is the OPPOSITE of a rational vision of the world.
A rationnal vision of the world is materialistic.
This means understanding that our choices are conditionned by the material conditions of our existence
No you would not. In a just society and a just system, there is no reason for me to ask you for an apology. It's not a necessity.
(I know, it's hard to graps, but that's the reason why I'm making big paragraphs)
No. Those are not the condition for change. You got the reality all WRONG.
Change is conditionned by change in the material conditions of our existence.
Punishment is a change in the material condition of our existence, but it's not the only one possible and it's the most counter productive.
Potential humans*
The person murder someone > Horrible act with horrible consequences. > The balance tips toward the negative
The person is sentenced to death > End of a life and a potential for good > No positive here, another tip toward the negative.
Punishments are double negative. The action + the punishment. If you think the relief of killing or punishing someone is enough to balance an horrible action then there is a problem and this is not justice but the research for blood.
Justice must creates balance.
Which means that for the horrible act commited, the system must compensate by a lot of good action. This means:
> The complete care of the person inflicted by the loss or the victim.
> The care for the person who commited the act toward an change of behavior.
In other words, the system must understand the material reality of the world and apply it to both side. And to restore balance, only two positive actions can happen. Not negative ones.
I know it's hard to understand that. And maybe it's easier for me because I was condtionned to think that way because of SF very early on. But if we want to change the system, we must not simply change the structure, but also the way we see the system.
We must not think outside of the box. We must understand that the box does not exist.
Try that for 10000 more years, we will see if you manage to create a functionning society.
Sure.
It's ironic how you think I'm the child in this situation.
Look closely to what you just said. You are still thinking that choices are what you make of it. So of course, you think that punishment can bring repentence. And.. in fact, it's true, it can... in OUR referencial.
In reality, it only can because our world is constructed in such a way that people THINK that to get repentance, you should be punished.
In reality, you are the child in this situation. You are talking with the words that comes from the old version and vision of the world, the one that we teach all younglins : "Suffering makes penitence"
While this is a cute concept, a good society should not function like that. This is highly inneficient. A just society should understand that choices are NOT what you make of it and that choices are dependant of your material conditions of existence and so.. punishment is pointless and nonsensical in front of a bad choice.
To make society better we need to see beyond your old fashion vision of punishment. We need to see beyond the illusion of free will and integrate it in our day to day reality. At least in the structures of our systems. And so, if someone murder another.. everyone will understand that change is the way to go, punishment will not be applied because punishment is not necessary for the good of neither the victim or the good of society.
I know it's hard to think about paradise in a concrete way. The first times were also really strange for me back in the dayz. But it's not just a random wish...
This is what can happen in a very concrete manner, if we manage to change the structures of society and abolish the fundamentals systems of oppressions in the world.
---
It's funny because there is a lot of people here who believe in paradise, not understanding that it could become a reality in the material world, on earth, in less than 100 years, if everyone was able to understand a few materialistic concepts.
No mate. That's what you do not understand AT ALL.
Idealism is the action of thinking the world through the vision that your mind influence your environment and the material conditions of your world.
Idealism IS an illusion.
Idealism IS thinking that punishment will prevent your from doing crimes.
It.
Does.
NOT.
I proved that with the post above when talking to @Monkey D Theories but it was also demonstrated here: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html
> Idealism is the OPPOSITE of a rationnal vision of the world.
> Thinking that punishment is necessary to create justice is the OPPOSITE of a rational vision of the world.
A rationnal vision of the world is materialistic.
This means understanding that our choices are conditionned by the material conditions of our existence
So yes, I would owe you an apology just through my actions. Nice going
(I know, it's hard to graps, but that's the reason why I'm making big paragraphs)
No. Those are not the condition for change. You got the reality all WRONG.
Change is conditionned by change in the material conditions of our existence.
Punishment is a change in the material condition of our existence, but it's not the only one possible and it's the most counter productive.
Potential humans*
It has never existed. It does not exist. It will never exist. At least not in the common way of looking at it.
This is reality. And it's ok. We can live with that.
It's not something "I think" that should not exist. In a better system free from the current oppressive system of our world, there will be simply no need for punishment.
I feel like you do not understand at all what I'm saying. And I can understand why because I myself through this discussion has evolved in deepened my own understanding of my own argumentation.
---------
Please, do not take what I'm about to say as me bragging, it's an image to make you understand how I feel here.
---
I feel like you guyz are talking in 3D while I'm talking in 4D.
We are not talking with the same basic fundamental bricks. You guy keep bringing up the most horrible cases possible as if it would change anything why I'm telling you that no matter the horrific act, punishment is not necessary in a really healthy society.
Please. Try to understand - at least - the fact that we are not synchronized on this topic. Quit trying to convince me by adding horrible actions on horrible actions. This will change nothing.
Maybe I need a methapor. A DRAWING OF A REALITIC CHARACTER FROM IMAGINATION (This should be very understandable for those who draw a lot)
Take this drawing as a metaphor for society trying to solve its problems.
When we start to draw, we will usually do this:
> We are starting with the eyes (we build prisons)
> We spend a LOT of times with the eyes, they seem to look good (We put a lot of prison in jail)
> Then we are moving to the nose.. well, too bad, we don't really know how to do a nose, so we try (We makes laws)
> 10 minutes later and a lot of time with an ereaser, we move to the mouth, it seems to look good (We say that racism is bad)
> After that we make the contour of the face, and we spend a lot of fun times with the hair.. "niiiice !" (We say that freedom and equality is what we must fight for)
> We can now draw the body and create the torso, the cloth and the legs.. (We say that poor people deserve to be treated with respect and that they are really the backbone of our society)
> Oops.. We forgot the hands.. so we spend 10minutes trying to find the best pose, hands are hard.. (we push the example of billionnaires to push poor people to understand that they must be stronger and fight harder to be more successfull)
Finally it's finished.. And 30 min later..
If you are an artist, you be already understanding the problem aside from the inexperience.
The reason :
The problem is that we spent A LOT of ressources and time focusing on little parts of the drawing without taking the entire drawing into account and without understanding the basic principle of proportion or sketching to begin with. (And trust me, if you end up with that result, you are lucky)
To do a good drawing, you need to think your drawing as a whole. This means thinking in big shapes first, understanding what you want and don't want, making the big form and volume at the start to avoid having a drawing who look like
(yeah I don't like Picasso) (and yes I know, he knew how to make a real face, no the point)
The point is, thinkabout the BIG PICTURE FIRST and know the rules of the game.
For our drawing, it means understanding anatomy, proportions, shapes annd volumes etc.
&
For our system, it means understanding our reality, thinking in big structures and understanding that we are shaped by the material conditions of our existence.
This is reality. And it's ok. We can live with that.
It's not something "I think" that should not exist. In a better system free from the current oppressive system of our world, there will be simply no need for punishment.
I feel like you do not understand at all what I'm saying. And I can understand why because I myself through this discussion has evolved in deepened my own understanding of my own argumentation.
---------
Please, do not take what I'm about to say as me bragging, it's an image to make you understand how I feel here.
---
I feel like you guyz are talking in 3D while I'm talking in 4D.
We are not talking with the same basic fundamental bricks. You guy keep bringing up the most horrible cases possible as if it would change anything why I'm telling you that no matter the horrific act, punishment is not necessary in a really healthy society.
Please. Try to understand - at least - the fact that we are not synchronized on this topic. Quit trying to convince me by adding horrible actions on horrible actions. This will change nothing.
Maybe I need a methapor. A DRAWING OF A REALITIC CHARACTER FROM IMAGINATION (This should be very understandable for those who draw a lot)
Take this drawing as a metaphor for society trying to solve its problems.
When we start to draw, we will usually do this:
> We are starting with the eyes (we build prisons)
> We spend a LOT of times with the eyes, they seem to look good (We put a lot of prison in jail)
> Then we are moving to the nose.. well, too bad, we don't really know how to do a nose, so we try (We makes laws)
> 10 minutes later and a lot of time with an ereaser, we move to the mouth, it seems to look good (We say that racism is bad)
> After that we make the contour of the face, and we spend a lot of fun times with the hair.. "niiiice !" (We say that freedom and equality is what we must fight for)
> We can now draw the body and create the torso, the cloth and the legs.. (We say that poor people deserve to be treated with respect and that they are really the backbone of our society)
> Oops.. We forgot the hands.. so we spend 10minutes trying to find the best pose, hands are hard.. (we push the example of billionnaires to push poor people to understand that they must be stronger and fight harder to be more successfull)
Finally it's finished.. And 30 min later..
If you are an artist, you be already understanding the problem aside from the inexperience.
The reason :
The problem is that we spent A LOT of ressources and time focusing on little parts of the drawing without taking the entire drawing into account and without understanding the basic principle of proportion or sketching to begin with. (And trust me, if you end up with that result, you are lucky)
To do a good drawing, you need to think your drawing as a whole. This means thinking in big shapes first, understanding what you want and don't want, making the big form and volume at the start to avoid having a drawing who look like
(yeah I don't like Picasso) (and yes I know, he knew how to make a real face, no the point)
The point is, thinkabout the BIG PICTURE FIRST and know the rules of the game.
For our drawing, it means understanding anatomy, proportions, shapes annd volumes etc.
&
For our system, it means understanding our reality, thinking in big structures and understanding that we are shaped by the material conditions of our existence.
When does it go from potential to actual?
Does a person need to live their entire life to change? Many people repent before they die, and are executed with a changed heart.
So I have to ask you, is it a double negative if, being faced with death, they change for the good and die with a good heart? A heart that, if it wasn't threatened with death, would not have changed otherwise?
In reality, this "tip" towards the negative is actually just a deprivation of a lower good for the sake of a higher good, someone's life being cut short in exchange for their heart having changed.
Yes, change is the way to go, to get this change we will remove all punishments, the police (basically everything that makes people fear & respect the law in the first place) then there will be no more crime
Does a person need to live their entire life to change? Many people repent before they die, and are executed with a changed heart.
So I have to ask you, is it a double negative if, being faced with death, they change for the good and die with a good heart? A heart that, if it wasn't threatened with death, would not have changed otherwise?
In reality, this "tip" towards the negative is actually just a deprivation of a lower good for the sake of a higher good, someone's life being cut short in exchange for their heart having changed.
Yes, change is the way to go, to get this change we will remove all punishments, the police (basically everything that makes people fear & respect the law in the first place) then there will be no more crime
Last edited:
It has never existed. It does not exist. It will never exist. At least not in the common way of looking at it.
This is reality. And it's ok. We can live with that.
It's not something "I think" that should not exist. In a better system free from the current oppressive system of our world, there will be simply no need for punishment.
I feel like you do not understand at all what I'm saying. And I can understand why because I myself through this discussion has evolved in deepened my own understanding of my own argumentation.
---------
Please, do not take what I'm about to say as me bragging, it's an image to make you understand how I feel here.
---
I feel like you guyz are talking in 3D while I'm talking in 4D.
We are not talking with the same basic fundamental bricks. You guy keep bringing up the most horrible cases possible as if it would change anything why I'm telling you that no matter the horrific act, punishment is not necessary in a really healthy society.
Please. Try to understand - at least - the fact that we are not synchronized on this topic. Quit trying to convince me by adding horrible actions on horrible actions. This will change nothing.
Maybe I need a methapor. A DRAWING OF A REALITIC CHARACTER FROM IMAGINATION (This should be very understandable for those who draw a lot)
Take this drawing as a metaphor for society trying to solve its problems.
When we start to draw, we will usually do this:
> We are starting with the eyes (we build prisons)
> We spend a LOT of times with the eyes, they seem to look good (We put a lot of prison in jail)
> Then we are moving to the nose.. well, too bad, we don't really know how to do a nose, so we try (We makes laws)
> 10 minutes later and a lot of time with an ereaser, we move to the mouth, it seems to look good (We say that racism is bad)
> After that we make the contour of the face, and we spend a lot of fun times with the hair.. "niiiice !" (We say that freedom and equality is what we must fight for)
> We can now draw the body and create the torso, the cloth and the legs.. (We say that poor people deserve to be treated with respect and that they are really the backbone of our society)
> Oops.. We forgot the hands.. so we spend 10minutes trying to find the best pose, hands are hard.. (we push the example of billionnaires to push poor people to understand that they must be stronger and fight harder to be more successfull)
Finally it's finished.. And 30 min later..
If you are an artist, you be already understanding the problem aside from the inexperience.
The reason :
The problem is that we spent A LOT of ressources and time focusing on little parts of the drawing without taking the entire drawing into account and without understanding the basic principle of proportion or sketching to begin with. (And trust me, if you end up with that result, you are lucky)
To do a good drawing, you need to think your drawing as a whole. This means thinking in big shapes first, understanding what you want and don't want, making the big form and volume at the start to avoid having a drawing who look like
(yeah I don't like Picasso) (and yes I know, he knew how to make a real face, no the point)
The point is, thinkabout the BIG PICTURE FIRST and know the rules of the game.
For our drawing, it means understanding anatomy, proportions, shapes annd volumes etc.
&
For our system, it means understanding our reality, thinking in big structures and understanding that we are shaped by the material conditions of our existence.
This is reality. And it's ok. We can live with that.
It's not something "I think" that should not exist. In a better system free from the current oppressive system of our world, there will be simply no need for punishment.
I feel like you do not understand at all what I'm saying. And I can understand why because I myself through this discussion has evolved in deepened my own understanding of my own argumentation.
---------
Please, do not take what I'm about to say as me bragging, it's an image to make you understand how I feel here.
---
I feel like you guyz are talking in 3D while I'm talking in 4D.
We are not talking with the same basic fundamental bricks. You guy keep bringing up the most horrible cases possible as if it would change anything why I'm telling you that no matter the horrific act, punishment is not necessary in a really healthy society.
Please. Try to understand - at least - the fact that we are not synchronized on this topic. Quit trying to convince me by adding horrible actions on horrible actions. This will change nothing.
Maybe I need a methapor. A DRAWING OF A REALITIC CHARACTER FROM IMAGINATION (This should be very understandable for those who draw a lot)
Take this drawing as a metaphor for society trying to solve its problems.
When we start to draw, we will usually do this:
> We are starting with the eyes (we build prisons)
> We spend a LOT of times with the eyes, they seem to look good (We put a lot of prison in jail)
> Then we are moving to the nose.. well, too bad, we don't really know how to do a nose, so we try (We makes laws)
> 10 minutes later and a lot of time with an ereaser, we move to the mouth, it seems to look good (We say that racism is bad)
> After that we make the contour of the face, and we spend a lot of fun times with the hair.. "niiiice !" (We say that freedom and equality is what we must fight for)
> We can now draw the body and create the torso, the cloth and the legs.. (We say that poor people deserve to be treated with respect and that they are really the backbone of our society)
> Oops.. We forgot the hands.. so we spend 10minutes trying to find the best pose, hands are hard.. (we push the example of billionnaires to push poor people to understand that they must be stronger and fight harder to be more successfull)
Finally it's finished.. And 30 min later..
If you are an artist, you be already understanding the problem aside from the inexperience.
The reason :
The problem is that we spent A LOT of ressources and time focusing on little parts of the drawing without taking the entire drawing into account and without understanding the basic principle of proportion or sketching to begin with. (And trust me, if you end up with that result, you are lucky)
To do a good drawing, you need to think your drawing as a whole. This means thinking in big shapes first, understanding what you want and don't want, making the big form and volume at the start to avoid having a drawing who look like
(yeah I don't like Picasso) (and yes I know, he knew how to make a real face, no the point)
The point is, thinkabout the BIG PICTURE FIRST and know the rules of the game.
For our drawing, it means understanding anatomy, proportions, shapes annd volumes etc.
&
For our system, it means understanding our reality, thinking in big structures and understanding that we are shaped by the material conditions of our existence.
Does that guy who abused a child and caused his death deserve a punishment or not?
tbh it really doesn’t. The more walls of text you post, the less likely people are to read them.
Less words can be more meaningful
This is literally the type of shit rapists say to themselves after the fact in order to make themselves feel better and avoid taking responsibility.
Less words can be more meaningful
Post automatically merged:
This is literally the type of shit rapists say to themselves after the fact in order to make themselves feel better and avoid taking responsibility.
No because in his head that man can change and did what he did because he had no choice. Patriarchy made him do this.
A man steal because he has no choice. A man loots because he has no choice.
They know it's wrong but the patriarchy didn't give them another choice in life.
Everyone is a victim of their own actions, unless of course if they are on the wrong side of the political spectrum. For example, it is justified to attempt to kill Trump just as it is justified to kill a CEO.
You need to understand that killing is justified sometimes when it's a political act and when there's no other choice.
How do you know there is no ther choice you're going to ask? That's easy to answer. You just have to be on the right side of the political ground.
A man steal because he has no choice. A man loots because he has no choice.
They know it's wrong but the patriarchy didn't give them another choice in life.
Everyone is a victim of their own actions, unless of course if they are on the wrong side of the political spectrum. For example, it is justified to attempt to kill Trump just as it is justified to kill a CEO.
You need to understand that killing is justified sometimes when it's a political act and when there's no other choice.
How do you know there is no ther choice you're going to ask? That's easy to answer. You just have to be on the right side of the political ground.
It has never existed. It does not exist. It will never exist. At least not in the common way of looking at it.
This is reality. And it's ok. We can live with that.
It's not something "I think" that should not exist. In a better system free from the current oppressive system of our world, there will be simply no need for punishment.
I feel like you do not understand at all what I'm saying. And I can understand why because I myself through this discussion has evolved in deepened my own understanding of my own argumentation.
---------
Please, do not take what I'm about to say as me bragging, it's an image to make you understand how I feel here.
---
I feel like you guyz are talking in 3D while I'm talking in 4D.
We are not talking with the same basic fundamental bricks. You guy keep bringing up the most horrible cases possible as if it would change anything why I'm telling you that no matter the horrific act, punishment is not necessary in a really healthy society.
Please. Try to understand - at least - the fact that we are not synchronized on this topic. Quit trying to convince me by adding horrible actions on horrible actions. This will change nothing.
Maybe I need a methapor. A DRAWING OF A REALITIC CHARACTER FROM IMAGINATION (This should be very understandable for those who draw a lot)
Take this drawing as a metaphor for society trying to solve its problems.
When we start to draw, we will usually do this:
> We are starting with the eyes (we build prisons)
> We spend a LOT of times with the eyes, they seem to look good (We put a lot of prison in jail)
> Then we are moving to the nose.. well, too bad, we don't really know how to do a nose, so we try (We makes laws)
> 10 minutes later and a lot of time with an ereaser, we move to the mouth, it seems to look good (We say that racism is bad)
> After that we make the contour of the face, and we spend a lot of fun times with the hair.. "niiiice !" (We say that freedom and equality is what we must fight for)
> We can now draw the body and create the torso, the cloth and the legs.. (We say that poor people deserve to be treated with respect and that they are really the backbone of our society)
> Oops.. We forgot the hands.. so we spend 10minutes trying to find the best pose, hands are hard.. (we push the example of billionnaires to push poor people to understand that they must be stronger and fight harder to be more successfull)
Finally it's finished.. And 30 min later..
If you are an artist, you be already understanding the problem aside from the inexperience.
The reason :
The problem is that we spent A LOT of ressources and time focusing on little parts of the drawing without taking the entire drawing into account and without understanding the basic principle of proportion or sketching to begin with. (And trust me, if you end up with that result, you are lucky)
To do a good drawing, you need to think your drawing as a whole. This means thinking in big shapes first, understanding what you want and don't want, making the big form and volume at the start to avoid having a drawing who look like
(yeah I don't like Picasso) (and yes I know, he knew how to make a real face, no the point)
The point is, thinkabout the BIG PICTURE FIRST and know the rules of the game.
For our drawing, it means understanding anatomy, proportions, shapes annd volumes etc.
&
For our system, it means understanding our reality, thinking in big structures and understanding that we are shaped by the material conditions of our existence.
This is reality. And it's ok. We can live with that.
It's not something "I think" that should not exist. In a better system free from the current oppressive system of our world, there will be simply no need for punishment.
I feel like you do not understand at all what I'm saying. And I can understand why because I myself through this discussion has evolved in deepened my own understanding of my own argumentation.
---------
Please, do not take what I'm about to say as me bragging, it's an image to make you understand how I feel here.
---
I feel like you guyz are talking in 3D while I'm talking in 4D.
We are not talking with the same basic fundamental bricks. You guy keep bringing up the most horrible cases possible as if it would change anything why I'm telling you that no matter the horrific act, punishment is not necessary in a really healthy society.
Please. Try to understand - at least - the fact that we are not synchronized on this topic. Quit trying to convince me by adding horrible actions on horrible actions. This will change nothing.
Maybe I need a methapor. A DRAWING OF A REALITIC CHARACTER FROM IMAGINATION (This should be very understandable for those who draw a lot)
Take this drawing as a metaphor for society trying to solve its problems.
When we start to draw, we will usually do this:
> We are starting with the eyes (we build prisons)
> We spend a LOT of times with the eyes, they seem to look good (We put a lot of prison in jail)
> Then we are moving to the nose.. well, too bad, we don't really know how to do a nose, so we try (We makes laws)
> 10 minutes later and a lot of time with an ereaser, we move to the mouth, it seems to look good (We say that racism is bad)
> After that we make the contour of the face, and we spend a lot of fun times with the hair.. "niiiice !" (We say that freedom and equality is what we must fight for)
> We can now draw the body and create the torso, the cloth and the legs.. (We say that poor people deserve to be treated with respect and that they are really the backbone of our society)
> Oops.. We forgot the hands.. so we spend 10minutes trying to find the best pose, hands are hard.. (we push the example of billionnaires to push poor people to understand that they must be stronger and fight harder to be more successfull)
Finally it's finished.. And 30 min later..
If you are an artist, you be already understanding the problem aside from the inexperience.
The reason :
The problem is that we spent A LOT of ressources and time focusing on little parts of the drawing without taking the entire drawing into account and without understanding the basic principle of proportion or sketching to begin with. (And trust me, if you end up with that result, you are lucky)
To do a good drawing, you need to think your drawing as a whole. This means thinking in big shapes first, understanding what you want and don't want, making the big form and volume at the start to avoid having a drawing who look like
(yeah I don't like Picasso) (and yes I know, he knew how to make a real face, no the point)
The point is, thinkabout the BIG PICTURE FIRST and know the rules of the game.
For our drawing, it means understanding anatomy, proportions, shapes annd volumes etc.
&
For our system, it means understanding our reality, thinking in big structures and understanding that we are shaped by the material conditions of our existence.
You simply speak as if the problem of free will has already been solved. This is false. This is being debated in neurophilosophy currently. And it was always debated in the history of philosophy
You are being dogmatic and arent noticing
Post automatically merged:
Its like AL Sama when he talks about ethics
It wasnt me who said it at first anyway.
It started with this post
Its very clear that this is about the executed people not doing dangerous shit anymore since they are freaking dead.
And your first source you shared that was supposedly about death sentences doesnt support your claims anyway
^from the same post of his btw
It started with this post
Its very clear that this is about the executed people not doing dangerous shit anymore since they are freaking dead.
And your first source you shared that was supposedly about death sentences doesnt support your claims anyway
Post automatically merged:
^from the same post of his btw
Good question. I'd say when the foetus start to get the necessary receptor to feel pain. But in absolute I would say at birth. But this is my vision and other have their own. There is no definitive answer to that.
Indeed. Some people repent but this happens because the right material conditions are met, not because the person as an epiphany out of nowhere.
This is what I would called a forced change.
It basically the same as pointing a gun at someone to make them take sh*t about their gods.
Some people will often change their whole viewpoint because of the threat of imminent death. It's just survival, now, will this be genuine ? unlikely. Will it be ethical ? Not at all.
It's a highly negative process and thus, this would be a double negative also. Change must happen out of empathy, not out of fear. Plus, they still die, which means that a potential force for good was eradicated, which is a double negative also.
In fact, it's EVEN WORSE to think that the treat of death could make people change because this would mean that we are executing people who changed and became beneficial for society. This is plainly atrocious.
The entire concept of death penalty and overall of punishment is nonsensical.
That would be the very end of the process.
What you said is like saying that you will make a wedding cake by adding a cherry on a topping. I hope that you understand how ridiculous it sounds lol.
No. To change society, we would need to topple ALL systems of oppressions and this is HEAVY WORK. It's very easy in theory, but it's a LOT of work.
Not in a better system where punishment is not necessary, no.
Start to read what i'm telling you. If you keep focusing on your own words, we will not make any progress.
I mean, you could say that saying that the earth is a sphere is a highly dogmatic quote, it wouldn't sound more ridicilous that what you just said here.
Reality is clear on the subject. Free will, as we usually talk about it (in the sence that we make conscious choice because of our own will, is an illusion.
You can either ride with it, or start to understand why I'm saying that. There is a lot of ressources to get to that point.
Life, yes. (but even then I was not really convinced. In reality I repeated what biologist said. And biologist and kinda weird with the life thing).
If I was saying what I really believe, I'd say life never begins. And Ithink scientific are a bit shy on the question.
I bet I just lost you there.
Ok. Here is a short sentence:
Learn about materialism, capitals and the reason why we (leftist and marxists) say that our choices are conditionned by the material condition of our existence.
Know that I'm talking in absolute term here (remember what I said above):
What I'm telling you here is what happens in reality. I know it's hard to understand when you are born with the patriarcal spoon in the mouth, but sadly, we are the product of the material conditions of our existence.
Those are the cold facts. If I were to talk to you to sooth your affect, I would tell you that yes, rapist can make the right choices. But in reality, this is not what happens.
Choice is an illusion, for good actions as well as for the bad ones.
To understand the actions of a rapist, you need to understand what creates a rapist to begin with. If you ignore that, you will simply put an infinity of people in jail without ever understanding the problem. You will stay ignorant and will deliver an unethical justice.
You can do that if you want, that's not what I seek.
A good system understands the ENTIRE spectrum of the material conditions that create a choice, or at least, the most important ones. (there are millions of parameters within a choice.)
I never said that killing can't be necessary. it can be a necessity in some cases. I took the case of Hitler as an example.
In fact you are doing a fallacy here since I literally took the example of Trump earlier to explain that I would welcome the guy if he proved a form of change.
And far rightist are ALSO the victims of the conditions of the the material conditions of existence. In fact, in their case, it's tragic because their ideology is so strong they they are forced by the system to justify their own oppression when we on the left know that it is a problem.
That's not how reality works mate. There is a reason why 50 people, all who are not specially mentally ill people, that raped Gisèle Pelicot.
What you are doing here, is trying to separate people into those who are really evil and those who are humans.
In reality, we are ALL capable of doing those acts. As I said, there are no evil people, just evil acts. ALL humans under specific material conditions are capable of the WORST and capable of the BEST.
You need to think outside of the Evil / Human box and start looking at reality how it really is. Because spoiler, there is a reason why there are war crimes being done in Palestine right now by very normal people who are simply brainwashed by a fascist ideology.
The extention of the concept of free will is debated, not the existence of what we usually call free will.
Some people are starting to expend free will outside of consciousness.
But the reality of freewill is that, what we usually talk about (the action of making conscious choice because of our will) is an illusion. And trust me, I dedicated the last 5 years to understand this topic. So when I tell you that it's an illusion, I'm not joking.
No I'm being factual.
You are simply not understanding that we are not talking about the same thing.
Fair.
It not "supposedly about death sentence". I shared a source about the carceral problem, not death sentences, it just happens that there is a debunking of the notion that death sentence are not a deterrant.
And yes, it does support my claim. Sorry bra.
Well yes.
Pretty much yeah (even if it's a much more complicated than that). It seems like you are starting to understand the point.
Next step is to understand why it's reality and why mocking this argumentation is actually not the genius move you think it is.
Indeed. Some people repent but this happens because the right material conditions are met, not because the person as an epiphany out of nowhere.
This is what I would called a forced change.
It basically the same as pointing a gun at someone to make them take sh*t about their gods.
Some people will often change their whole viewpoint because of the threat of imminent death. It's just survival, now, will this be genuine ? unlikely. Will it be ethical ? Not at all.
It's a highly negative process and thus, this would be a double negative also. Change must happen out of empathy, not out of fear. Plus, they still die, which means that a potential force for good was eradicated, which is a double negative also.
In fact, it's EVEN WORSE to think that the treat of death could make people change because this would mean that we are executing people who changed and became beneficial for society. This is plainly atrocious.
The entire concept of death penalty and overall of punishment is nonsensical.
Yes, change is the way to go, to get this change we will remove all punishments, the police (basically everything that makes people fear & respect the law in the first place) then there will be no more crime
What you said is like saying that you will make a wedding cake by adding a cherry on a topping. I hope that you understand how ridiculous it sounds lol.
No. To change society, we would need to topple ALL systems of oppressions and this is HEAVY WORK. It's very easy in theory, but it's a LOT of work.
Not in a better system where punishment is not necessary, no.
Start to read what i'm telling you. If you keep focusing on your own words, we will not make any progress.
I mean, you could say that saying that the earth is a sphere is a highly dogmatic quote, it wouldn't sound more ridicilous that what you just said here.
Reality is clear on the subject. Free will, as we usually talk about it (in the sence that we make conscious choice because of our own will, is an illusion.
You can either ride with it, or start to understand why I'm saying that. There is a lot of ressources to get to that point.
Life, yes. (but even then I was not really convinced. In reality I repeated what biologist said. And biologist and kinda weird with the life thing).
If I was saying what I really believe, I'd say life never begins. And Ithink scientific are a bit shy on the question.
I bet I just lost you there.
Ok. Here is a short sentence:
Learn about materialism, capitals and the reason why we (leftist and marxists) say that our choices are conditionned by the material condition of our existence.
Know that I'm talking in absolute term here (remember what I said above):
What I'm telling you here is what happens in reality. I know it's hard to understand when you are born with the patriarcal spoon in the mouth, but sadly, we are the product of the material conditions of our existence.
Those are the cold facts. If I were to talk to you to sooth your affect, I would tell you that yes, rapist can make the right choices. But in reality, this is not what happens.
Choice is an illusion, for good actions as well as for the bad ones.
To understand the actions of a rapist, you need to understand what creates a rapist to begin with. If you ignore that, you will simply put an infinity of people in jail without ever understanding the problem. You will stay ignorant and will deliver an unethical justice.
You can do that if you want, that's not what I seek.
A good system understands the ENTIRE spectrum of the material conditions that create a choice, or at least, the most important ones. (there are millions of parameters within a choice.)
I never said that killing can't be necessary. it can be a necessity in some cases. I took the case of Hitler as an example.
In fact you are doing a fallacy here since I literally took the example of Trump earlier to explain that I would welcome the guy if he proved a form of change.
And far rightist are ALSO the victims of the conditions of the the material conditions of existence. In fact, in their case, it's tragic because their ideology is so strong they they are forced by the system to justify their own oppression when we on the left know that it is a problem.
That's not how reality works mate. There is a reason why 50 people, all who are not specially mentally ill people, that raped Gisèle Pelicot.
What you are doing here, is trying to separate people into those who are really evil and those who are humans.
In reality, we are ALL capable of doing those acts. As I said, there are no evil people, just evil acts. ALL humans under specific material conditions are capable of the WORST and capable of the BEST.
You need to think outside of the Evil / Human box and start looking at reality how it really is. Because spoiler, there is a reason why there are war crimes being done in Palestine right now by very normal people who are simply brainwashed by a fascist ideology.
The extention of the concept of free will is debated, not the existence of what we usually call free will.
Some people are starting to expend free will outside of consciousness.
But the reality of freewill is that, what we usually talk about (the action of making conscious choice because of our will) is an illusion. And trust me, I dedicated the last 5 years to understand this topic. So when I tell you that it's an illusion, I'm not joking.
No I'm being factual.
You are simply not understanding that we are not talking about the same thing.
Fair.
It not "supposedly about death sentence". I shared a source about the carceral problem, not death sentences, it just happens that there is a debunking of the notion that death sentence are not a deterrant.
And yes, it does support my claim. Sorry bra.
In his view, whole justice system of holding criminals accountable for their actions is wrong...
because it's the society and capitalism which makes them commit crime 
because it's the society and capitalism which makes them commit crime
Pretty much yeah (even if it's a much more complicated than that). It seems like you are starting to understand the point.
Next step is to understand why it's reality and why mocking this argumentation is actually not the genius move you think it is.