General & Others Why do people HATE ability Countering All of a sudden?
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If i recalled correctly, the complaint on recent chapter is that kinemon could slice kaido, not because he sliced the fire breath.
Did people bash at oden stalled by barrier? I thought people bashed at oden for complying with orochi. In other forum, people don't really find issues about him being stopped by the barrier power.
Did people bash at oden stalled by barrier? I thought people bashed at oden for complying with orochi. In other forum, people don't really find issues about him being stopped by the barrier power.
Lets say all scabbards are equal, we saw ashura call jack a small fry,, even easily hurt him
Then why kinemon cant beat doflamingo?
Kin was hurt by small string attack, why can he immadiately stand up and cut him?
Also why ryou or ACOA cant cut bird cage?.... thats some serious plot inconsistence to me
Also there was sabo in the bird cage, why not sabo countering doflamingo df birdcage by simply burn it?, dont tell me that birdcage was covered with haki again, bcos its bs
Then why kinemon cant beat doflamingo?
Kin was hurt by small string attack, why can he immadiately stand up and cut him?
Also why ryou or ACOA cant cut bird cage?.... thats some serious plot inconsistence to me
Also there was sabo in the bird cage, why not sabo countering doflamingo df birdcage by simply burn it?, dont tell me that birdcage was covered with haki again, bcos its bs
its because "top 10 characters" lists would implode if this was aknowledged.
some people got the idea in their heads that top tiers are virtually intouchable. for some reason.
those same people may have skimmed over MF entirely.
supposed top tiers were target dummys.
shit, you are serious?!?!?!
some people got the idea in their heads that top tiers are virtually intouchable. for some reason.
those same people may have skimmed over MF entirely.
supposed top tiers were target dummys.
shit, you are serious?!?!?!
It's about consistency.
Nobody cares about Kinemon cutting Kaido's fire breath. This feat of him has been established a long time ago and it's consistent with Oda's storywriting.
Kinemon suddenly using highly advanced CoA and being able to cut the body of "invincible Kaido" is just not consistent at all:
1) Kinemon never appeared to be anything more than a somewhat decent fighter. Now suddenly he can use the most elite form of CoA? Heck, he should've been able to bulldoze through PH and Dressrosa then.
2) Kaido being labled as "invincible", with only Oden being able to give him a scar. That just doesn't make any sense either now. If all it takes to pierce Kaido is some advanced CoA, then he simply should've been dead a long time ago (or have a lot more scars). It was said that he was captured by the other Yonkou and the marines a lot and that they tried to execute him countless times, which failed every single time. Well sorry, but this is just plot convenience galore. Any Yonkou or the marines could've just sent a guy with some advanced CoA and the job would've been done in an instant.
@dirtyLarry Kaido was never depicted as invincible. he gets introduced with a scar on his body. a large scar.
Kinemon is a Wano samurai. one of the strongest Wano samurai. wether you like this or not. he is.
the strongest samurai of Wano can use ryou. this is in no way surprising. or inconsistent.
Kinemon also cut Kaido inside of his mouth. there are no scales. its not unexpected at all unless you have weird expectations.
Oden was the only one who managed to give Kaido a scar. that does not mean other characters were not able to hurt him. Oden may have also been the only strong character to ever land a clean hit on Kaido.
you assume someone capable of using ryou was present there. its still a rare ability.
how many characters, provably, are able to use ryou? thats a short list. I can tell you that already.
it comes down to the same thing again. being pissed that Kinemon and the other Scabbards can use one of the strongest abilities in swordsmanship.
Kinemon is a Wano samurai. one of the strongest Wano samurai. wether you like this or not. he is.
the strongest samurai of Wano can use ryou. this is in no way surprising. or inconsistent.
Kinemon also cut Kaido inside of his mouth. there are no scales. its not unexpected at all unless you have weird expectations.
Oden was the only one who managed to give Kaido a scar. that does not mean other characters were not able to hurt him. Oden may have also been the only strong character to ever land a clean hit on Kaido.
you assume someone capable of using ryou was present there. its still a rare ability.
how many characters, provably, are able to use ryou? thats a short list. I can tell you that already.
it comes down to the same thing again. being pissed that Kinemon and the other Scabbards can use one of the strongest abilities in swordsmanship.
Kinemon got toyed with at PH and Dressrosa. He quite frankly looked like a slightly stronger fodder character back then.
You can even search for old threads on apforums or mangahelpers, where his "power lvl" was discussed back then. Most had him just slightly above the weakling trio and certainly worse than Brook, Franky etc. based on his portrayal.
Now he suddenly pulls advanced CoA out of his ass, which could've (and quite frankly should've) made PH and Dressrosa a cakewalk for him.
That's just inconsistent, no matter how you turn it.
You can even search for old threads on apforums or mangahelpers, where his "power lvl" was discussed back then. Most had him just slightly above the weakling trio and certainly worse than Brook, Franky etc. based on his portrayal.
Now he suddenly pulls advanced CoA out of his ass, which could've (and quite frankly should've) made PH and Dressrosa a cakewalk for him.
That's just inconsistent, no matter how you turn it.
that is strange. seeing how he fought Brook with his torso alone.
implying Franky is weak...
his performance vs Brook already showcased an insane CoO feat from him. he also easily cut through large steel. just like Zoro. he can perfrom a sword technique that Zoro can not. cutting fire.
it was very early established that Kinemon is a strong swordsman.
how so? what good would that do vs Laws cutting ability? refresh my memory on DR. how was ryou supposed to help him there and against who?
still a hard no. not Odas fault if you are setting yourself up with false expectations.
I always had Kinemon > Sanji
implying Franky is weak...
his performance vs Brook already showcased an insane CoO feat from him. he also easily cut through large steel. just like Zoro. he can perfrom a sword technique that Zoro can not. cutting fire.
it was very early established that Kinemon is a strong swordsman.
how so? what good would that do vs Laws cutting ability? refresh my memory on DR. how was ryou supposed to help him there and against who?
still a hard no. not Odas fault if you are setting yourself up with false expectations.
I always had Kinemon > Sanji
It comes down to our resident tier specialists because as usual it blows what ever arguments they make about power level out of the water.
Even in this thread we see some claiming that it is because of PIS or CIS or inconsistency or whatever excuse they can come up with.
There's nothing inconsistent about Kinemon being able to hurt Kaido nor about Kinemon being able to cut Kaido's attack.
The manga has clearly explained this. The Scabbards inherited Oden's will. Will = haki. Oden was able to hurt Kaido hence the Scabbards channeling Oden's will and the whole 20 year experience through their swords helped them unlock a haki level which actually was already explained in preskip.
The highest ability of swordsmanship is being able to cut what you want and what you do not want. Luffy decided to learn this through Hyo and we have the Scabbards unlocking same. So Luffy can unlock but other characters can't? Where's the inconsistency here?
Even in this thread we see some claiming that it is because of PIS or CIS or inconsistency or whatever excuse they can come up with.
There's nothing inconsistent about Kinemon being able to hurt Kaido nor about Kinemon being able to cut Kaido's attack.
The manga has clearly explained this. The Scabbards inherited Oden's will. Will = haki. Oden was able to hurt Kaido hence the Scabbards channeling Oden's will and the whole 20 year experience through their swords helped them unlock a haki level which actually was already explained in preskip.
The highest ability of swordsmanship is being able to cut what you want and what you do not want. Luffy decided to learn this through Hyo and we have the Scabbards unlocking same. So Luffy can unlock but other characters can't? Where's the inconsistency here?
this is some series bullshit...Kinemon never appeared as somewhat decent fighter....are you for real....
Let's see Kinemon time travelled to 20 years, sailed in Unknown sea towards Punk hazard, lost Momonoske and Kanjuro, mutilated by Law (which Kinemon didn't have any knowledge about), cut huge explosion, saved Momonuske, travelled to dressrosa for Kanjuro, got attacked by doffy offguard which did nothing but superficial cut...he didn't even catch a break until Zou...so there is no emphasis in any of the arcs that Kinemon is weak fodder......until Zou whatever happened to him was misfortune......you should know how much "determination" and "mental state/will power" important for any warrior/fighter....
Now facing with Kaido, they are giving everything and had strong determination/will power which is major requirement in One Piece powerscaling physics from the chapter 1...wondering how "senior most" fan overlooked this point
Let's see Kinemon time travelled to 20 years, sailed in Unknown sea towards Punk hazard, lost Momonoske and Kanjuro, mutilated by Law (which Kinemon didn't have any knowledge about), cut huge explosion, saved Momonuske, travelled to dressrosa for Kanjuro, got attacked by doffy offguard which did nothing but superficial cut...he didn't even catch a break until Zou...so there is no emphasis in any of the arcs that Kinemon is weak fodder......until Zou whatever happened to him was misfortune......you should know how much "determination" and "mental state/will power" important for any warrior/fighter....
Now facing with Kaido, they are giving everything and had strong determination/will power which is major requirement in One Piece powerscaling physics from the chapter 1...wondering how "senior most" fan overlooked this point
It's not tho. Next time better get your facts straight, guys. Him and Kanjuro were already seen blocking the birdcage with that "ass pull"- advanced CoA you are talking about. It's actually consistent. It's just that everyone and their mothers would have thought that more than just, let's call it, "normal adv CoA" would be needed in order to injure that guy, cause of Oden and such, which is prolly your problem with that aswell, but even that can be somewhat explained..
To be fair, attack power is still a thing. Either it's because of Oden's stats, Oden's CoA strength or because he used a lot more haki (greater mastery over the flow) within his "Paradise Totsuka", either way, that attack was probably on a whole other level. Highly doubtful that they will be able to mortally wound that gigantic dragon in a similiar fashion to Oden. Injuring him =/= mortally wound/scar him afterall.
All of that doesn't do too well for base Kaido though, I give you that. What Kiku did was crazy.
The second part within the same paragraph is legit tho. It went hard on me aswell. It really doesn't add up. Just pull out some Vergo guy (which the marines should have standing around somewhere) and let him behead that dude.
I think his REAL tankiness later on gets highlighted again when he turns on his awakened form and that will "redeem" the WSC title.
But we would still face the "empty hype"- problem, whereas no one was seemingly able to kill him, even though he most likely got tortured in base form, which takes us back to the originial point: Just pull out a Vergo kinda guy and get the job done.
Perhaps not Oda's best work, indeed.
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For this thread:
People are calling it a problem of actual powerscalers, even though most good powerscalers I know of, actually don't have any problem with all that, like at all. They all know that things, at times, can be very match up dependent and therefore counters can happen.. I would rather question the credibility of those guys, that make a fuss out of it.
What presumably annoys people or those "powerscalers" and me slightly aswell already is, that he will most likely turn this into a match that was fought at higher difficulties than it had to be, cause Oda will definitely not reveal Kaido's full strength in this match.
It's not a matter of "this cannot possibly happen, because Kinemon is just too fuckin weak", it's a matter of "this can only happen in the first place, because Kaido stays in that, felt like, filler dragon form and shoots beams at their faces". Inverse it still makes sense, but we readers in contrary, obviously know what's really up there...
Now it's still okay and the spoilers look good aswell, but if he overdoes it, it will simply become boring and implausible. Wait and see
To be fair, attack power is still a thing. Either it's because of Oden's stats, Oden's CoA strength or because he used a lot more haki (greater mastery over the flow) within his "Paradise Totsuka", either way, that attack was probably on a whole other level. Highly doubtful that they will be able to mortally wound that gigantic dragon in a similiar fashion to Oden. Injuring him =/= mortally wound/scar him afterall.
All of that doesn't do too well for base Kaido though, I give you that. What Kiku did was crazy.
The second part within the same paragraph is legit tho. It went hard on me aswell. It really doesn't add up. Just pull out some Vergo guy (which the marines should have standing around somewhere) and let him behead that dude.
I think his REAL tankiness later on gets highlighted again when he turns on his awakened form and that will "redeem" the WSC title.
But we would still face the "empty hype"- problem, whereas no one was seemingly able to kill him, even though he most likely got tortured in base form, which takes us back to the originial point: Just pull out a Vergo kinda guy and get the job done.
Perhaps not Oda's best work, indeed.
__________________________
For this thread:
People are calling it a problem of actual powerscalers, even though most good powerscalers I know of, actually don't have any problem with all that, like at all. They all know that things, at times, can be very match up dependent and therefore counters can happen.. I would rather question the credibility of those guys, that make a fuss out of it.
What presumably annoys people or those "powerscalers" and me slightly aswell already is, that he will most likely turn this into a match that was fought at higher difficulties than it had to be, cause Oda will definitely not reveal Kaido's full strength in this match.
It's not a matter of "this cannot possibly happen, because Kinemon is just too fuckin weak", it's a matter of "this can only happen in the first place, because Kaido stays in that, felt like, filler dragon form and shoots beams at their faces". Inverse it still makes sense, but we readers in contrary, obviously know what's really up there...
Now it's still okay and the spoilers look good aswell, but if he overdoes it, it will simply become boring and implausible. Wait and see
But is there any reason to believe he can do better in human form?
Like as a dragon Kaido has stats that his human form doesn't. As a dragon he can fly and has higher DC and AoE right?
Like as a human he probably gets faster but then hes also using just a club against nine people. He attacks one and the other eight are on him. He can be fast than each individually but together they can close in on him
Also he loses the ability to just fly out of range of any of their attacks since technically Kaido can just climb higher any time he wants if he feels overwhelmed which he can't do as a human right?
Like strategically, there's no reason to believe he would do any better in another form. In fact we see him get wounded as human and then the wounds disappear in dragon form which could imply he also heals better in dragon form
Like as a dragon Kaido has stats that his human form doesn't. As a dragon he can fly and has higher DC and AoE right?
Like as a human he probably gets faster but then hes also using just a club against nine people. He attacks one and the other eight are on him. He can be fast than each individually but together they can close in on him
Also he loses the ability to just fly out of range of any of their attacks since technically Kaido can just climb higher any time he wants if he feels overwhelmed which he can't do as a human right?
Like strategically, there's no reason to believe he would do any better in another form. In fact we see him get wounded as human and then the wounds disappear in dragon form which could imply he also heals better in dragon form
You definitely got a point and I see where you are coming from, but my reason would just be, that they are most likely completely unable to deal with him in close quarter combat. Means that probably nothing would really stop him from thunder bagua'ing them into oblivion one after another, if he comes anywhere close to them.
Would he take damage from range attacks ? Of course. But he would also be able to end their lives pretty much instantly in return. And if he would decide to use CoA for defensive purposes, he would practically be unsttoppable for them. Or not`? Just can't picture them blocking him for example, his stats are still monstrous.
And that's not even talking about his hybrid mode or a potential awakening form.