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@Bogard @TheAncientCenturion i always admired Jiraiya vs Itachi/Kisame debates online lol. Is Jiraiya really so strong that he can solo both of them?
From portrayal, it was implied that Itachi and Jiraya were around the same level, with Kisame not being strong enough to make a difference in their fights, but featwise it's not really believable he could beat them both. However what is sure imo is that Itachi and Jiraya are in the same tier. Not only Jiraya got that portrayal against both of them, but he pushed Pain, who is a tier higher than Itachi very far to the point, he admitted that Jiraya might have won with knowledge. Kakashi who fought Itachi also thought Akatsuki didn't try to capture Naruto during the timeskip because he was with Jiraya, so clearly Kishi had high estime of Jiraya and besides this Kishi tried to do parallel counter-parts between MS and SM, with Itachi's MS being the counter-part to Jiraya's SM imo, so overall yeah i think they are around as strong as each other, with Kisame a tier below
B
Since we talking Naruto; Am I the only who takes issue with Chunin Test promotions or to be more precise: the lack of them?
Like I get the message which Kishi wanted to convey by only promoting Shikimaru, that smartz and shits are important too but I think that would had worked with the Naruto, Neji and Sasuke being promoted too.
Like I get the message which Kishi wanted to convey by only promoting Shikimaru, that smartz and shits are important too but I think that would had worked with the Naruto, Neji and Sasuke being promoted too.
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Poor Neji, he was initially hyped as the top2 in the chunin exam with Gaara, only to be completely shifted as a nobody afterwards 
He was one of my favs as well. I always team Neji instead of Lee. But Lee is pretty much trash as well
Damn Kishimoto really didnt know how to use his characters.
Nah. It's pretty accepted online that sick Itachi can defeat Jiraiya high to extreme difficulty. Jiraiya has a handful of techniques that can keep Itachi on his toes though. Definitely not easy. Never seen a convincing argument for Healthy (Edo) Itachi losing to Jiraiya.
No one's ever really argued much in the way for Kisame beating Jiraiya aside from myself, and it's just an unorthodox match up. Jiraiya relies heavily on summons and apart from chakra absorption, Kisame doesn't have much to easily handle mountain sized animals. It really exploits a weakness of his, though what makes it deadly is the fact that Jiraiya's able to enter Sage Mode pretty easily with Kisame playing cat and mouse with him for so long as the Sage relies on his toad summons.
And even I'll admit that Sage Mode Jiraiya + 3 massive toad summons have real good odds to beat Kisame Hoshigaki.
This is unbelievable because we know a clown like Hidan could effect their fight, and Kisame is the only Akatsuki member thought strong enough to stand shoulder to shoulder with Itachi.
Kishi obviously had Jiraiya and the Sannin on a pedestal earlier in the series but as his writing evolved things shifted. Inconsistencies with that whole scene itself makes me shy away from taking it seriously. In the same arc, Orochimaru admits Itachi is his superior. Something Orochimaru does not think about Jiraiya. Yet somehow Kisame thinks the title of Sannin is too much for even Itachi, when Itachi managed to casually defeat (theres more to this, but I won't get into it) Jiraiya's rival? Worse yet, that Itachi thinks any other regular Akatsuki member won't impact the battle lol? That's treating them like Ino-Shaka-Cho during the Kakuzu fight, which definitely isn't Kishi's intention.
@comrade could probably weigh in on that. He used to debate Bogard more on it than I. Never really bothered to defend Uchiha.
No one's ever really argued much in the way for Kisame beating Jiraiya aside from myself, and it's just an unorthodox match up. Jiraiya relies heavily on summons and apart from chakra absorption, Kisame doesn't have much to easily handle mountain sized animals. It really exploits a weakness of his, though what makes it deadly is the fact that Jiraiya's able to enter Sage Mode pretty easily with Kisame playing cat and mouse with him for so long as the Sage relies on his toad summons.
And even I'll admit that Sage Mode Jiraiya + 3 massive toad summons have real good odds to beat Kisame Hoshigaki.
This is unbelievable because we know a clown like Hidan could effect their fight, and Kisame is the only Akatsuki member thought strong enough to stand shoulder to shoulder with Itachi.
Kishi obviously had Jiraiya and the Sannin on a pedestal earlier in the series but as his writing evolved things shifted. Inconsistencies with that whole scene itself makes me shy away from taking it seriously. In the same arc, Orochimaru admits Itachi is his superior. Something Orochimaru does not think about Jiraiya. Yet somehow Kisame thinks the title of Sannin is too much for even Itachi, when Itachi managed to casually defeat (theres more to this, but I won't get into it) Jiraiya's rival? Worse yet, that Itachi thinks any other regular Akatsuki member won't impact the battle lol? That's treating them like Ino-Shaka-Cho during the Kakuzu fight, which definitely isn't Kishi's intention.
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@comrade could probably weigh in on that. He used to debate Bogard more on it than I. Never really bothered to defend Uchiha.
Obviously Jiraya couldn't handle entire Akatsuki, but i think it may have been specifically made for just Itachi/Kisame. With that it's hard to believe i agree with that and Kishi certainly had sannin very high preskip, but overall i still think the hype was more Jiraya related because it continued post-kip through Kakashi's statements(who thought Akatsuki didn't want to capture Naruto because Jiraya was with him), Akatsuki leader's praise of Jiraya having a chance to beat him with knowledge, although circumstancial.
I view the Jiraya/Orochimaru thing a little similar to the Naruto/Sasuke or Hashirama/Madara thing in that they wanted to save a friend without killing them. Hashirama in all his battles against Madara never tried to kill him until the final one where he was resolved to kill him, but until then he always wanted to convince him to follow his path, in a similar sense that Jiraya wanted Orochimaru to abandon his evil path and come back to Konoha, but never managed to, but Hashirama was a tier higher than Madara, so i don't think it was a simple power-level matter between Jiraya and Orochimaru imo.
With that said, they were comparable in base, the part1 fight showed as much. It's just that i don't think Jiraya ever went all out with summoning Pa/Ma, going into SM with the full intention of killing Orochimaru. He only did it once, when he felt a threat stronger than Hanzo existed(Pain), who could defeated the 3 sannin together in their youth, so clearly i think Jiraya wasn't in that position with Orochimaru, with SM imo being the thing that ultimately placed Jiraya a tier higher than Orochimaru, or at least individually, since in a sense, Orochimaru could still overall being annoying to fight with his kinjutsu/edo tensei
But individually yeah, with Jiraya said so himself while fighting Pain that SM placed him higher than his sannin counter-parts
With him obtaining a mode Orochimaru's body couldn't handle
I also think it's not a coincidence it's the same Itachi who was trying to avoid a confrontation with Jiraya, when knowing how knowledgeable he is, was startled the moment Kabuto mentioned Sage Mode
And even featwise, Jiraya actually has good arsenal to counter Itachi's techniques
> Amphibian technique countering genjutsu
> Sage Sensing to evade any immediate attacks
> Yomi Numa or his toad traps to bind Itachi from underground regardless of Susanoo
> Sound techniques and powerful genjutsu that also counter Susanoo
All that with his large scale Rasengan, katon+oil attacks as finishers
I view the Jiraya/Orochimaru thing a little similar to the Naruto/Sasuke or Hashirama/Madara thing in that they wanted to save a friend without killing them. Hashirama in all his battles against Madara never tried to kill him until the final one where he was resolved to kill him, but until then he always wanted to convince him to follow his path, in a similar sense that Jiraya wanted Orochimaru to abandon his evil path and come back to Konoha, but never managed to, but Hashirama was a tier higher than Madara, so i don't think it was a simple power-level matter between Jiraya and Orochimaru imo.
With that said, they were comparable in base, the part1 fight showed as much. It's just that i don't think Jiraya ever went all out with summoning Pa/Ma, going into SM with the full intention of killing Orochimaru. He only did it once, when he felt a threat stronger than Hanzo existed(Pain), who could defeated the 3 sannin together in their youth, so clearly i think Jiraya wasn't in that position with Orochimaru, with SM imo being the thing that ultimately placed Jiraya a tier higher than Orochimaru, or at least individually, since in a sense, Orochimaru could still overall being annoying to fight with his kinjutsu/edo tensei
But individually yeah, with Jiraya said so himself while fighting Pain that SM placed him higher than his sannin counter-parts
With him obtaining a mode Orochimaru's body couldn't handle
I also think it's not a coincidence it's the same Itachi who was trying to avoid a confrontation with Jiraya, when knowing how knowledgeable he is, was startled the moment Kabuto mentioned Sage Mode
And even featwise, Jiraya actually has good arsenal to counter Itachi's techniques
> Amphibian technique countering genjutsu
> Sage Sensing to evade any immediate attacks
> Yomi Numa or his toad traps to bind Itachi from underground regardless of Susanoo
> Sound techniques and powerful genjutsu that also counter Susanoo
All that with his large scale Rasengan, katon+oil attacks as finishers
