Future Events Are The Marines Even Villains At This Point?
- Thread starter EmperorKinyagi
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They're nuanced, shades of black, white and grey.
I feel like it's one of those "We were lied to" cases, where they mostly think they are doing good, and convince themselves that the system's negatives are necessary.
Most pirates are assholes and the WG's propaganda probably doesn't help. I mean even Luffy caused massive damage via Impel Down alone.
So the Marines probably force themselves to just go along with serving the Navy at the cost of tolerating CDs, especially since rebelling against the WG could weaken it, fucking up world balance and allowing the Yonko to potentially gain a foothold.
I also don't know how much the top Marines are aware of when it comes to the Nobles and their crimes.
I'm certain that Garp's continued service to the WG will likely be explained somehow, Oda can't possibly have glazed him this much for him to not explain his behaviour.
Akainu, Kizaru and probably Ryokugyu will have some explanation of being misguided to think the WG is better than the alternative IMO... Akainu and Kizaru especially give me Bertholdt/Reiner vibes.
I feel like it's one of those "We were lied to" cases, where they mostly think they are doing good, and convince themselves that the system's negatives are necessary.
Most pirates are assholes and the WG's propaganda probably doesn't help. I mean even Luffy caused massive damage via Impel Down alone.
So the Marines probably force themselves to just go along with serving the Navy at the cost of tolerating CDs, especially since rebelling against the WG could weaken it, fucking up world balance and allowing the Yonko to potentially gain a foothold.
I also don't know how much the top Marines are aware of when it comes to the Nobles and their crimes.
I'm certain that Garp's continued service to the WG will likely be explained somehow, Oda can't possibly have glazed him this much for him to not explain his behaviour.
Akainu, Kizaru and probably Ryokugyu will have some explanation of being misguided to think the WG is better than the alternative IMO... Akainu and Kizaru especially give me Bertholdt/Reiner vibes.
Maybe that's the point Oda wants to convey: they don't ask.
But anyway, I think it's beside the point. We can rightfully think those Marines are living shits and complicit with the DC, even though it's more complicated.
However, if we have to judge the manga perspective, Oda voiced out his opinion more than once: as he sees them, they are not evil, bar some special cases.
That's why not even the Revs want to go against them and that's why even Harald said what he said barely two chapters ago.
So, to be clear: extra manga, we have the right to see them as we want, to laugh at Garp (or Roger in this case) because he helped the CDs.However, if we have to discuss what Oda/the manga thinks of them from the story's own perspective, whether they are villains or not, then we have received the same answer over and over again.
But anyway, I think it's beside the point. We can rightfully think those Marines are living shits and complicit with the DC, even though it's more complicated.
However, if we have to judge the manga perspective, Oda voiced out his opinion more than once: as he sees them, they are not evil, bar some special cases.
That's why not even the Revs want to go against them and that's why even Harald said what he said barely two chapters ago.
So, to be clear: extra manga, we have the right to see them as we want, to laugh at Garp (or Roger in this case) because he helped the CDs.However, if we have to discuss what Oda/the manga thinks of them from the story's own perspective, whether they are villains or not, then we have received the same answer over and over again.
The Marines are people; it's their orders that corrupt them.
The CDs are people; it's their environment that corrupted them.
Nobody is truly, fully evil.
Even IMU has been shown humanly fragile and traumatized.
The Final War will see both Marines and CDs fight alongside pirates against the Final Villain.
If anyone will be portrayed as irredeemably evil, that'll be the Original Devil from which both the Void and the DFs come from.
But. If BB will be that Devil's vessel, then already he won't "fully" evil, since we know that Teach himself is a victim, molded into his current powerhungry self by the world.
The CDs are people; it's their environment that corrupted them.
Nobody is truly, fully evil.
Even IMU has been shown humanly fragile and traumatized.
The Final War will see both Marines and CDs fight alongside pirates against the Final Villain.
If anyone will be portrayed as irredeemably evil, that'll be the Original Devil from which both the Void and the DFs come from.
But. If BB will be that Devil's vessel, then already he won't "fully" evil, since we know that Teach himself is a victim, molded into his current powerhungry self by the world.
That was 40 years ago. Things changed and the marines have become more and more akin to gangsters.
Our first introduction to them is literally one ordering the murder of a little girl. Then our second intro is one taking bribes from a monster who is holding an island hostage. Even now Oda has gone out of his way to show the marines are no different than pirates.
Sure some people have idolized images of marines but we’re told directly from the manga that the WG puts out Marine propaganda to give people that image of them.
Our first introduction to them is literally one ordering the murder of a little girl. Then our second intro is one taking bribes from a monster who is holding an island hostage. Even now Oda has gone out of his way to show the marines are no different than pirates.
Sure some people have idolized images of marines but we’re told directly from the manga that the WG puts out Marine propaganda to give people that image of them.
Which is, again, "our" projection on the manga, not Oda's and not what he is writing into the manga. Which we are entitled to have, but that is another matter. In the manga Shanks is portrayed as someone good, to look up to, etc., but I despise him lol.
In the manga, as said, even if you want to erase Harald's recent statement with some motivation (which is not holding up imho, but still), we have the revolutionaries themselves saying the problem are the CDs and not the Marines, or even the WG at large.
At EH there was another statement of this kind by Vegapunk:
And on and on.
So, how many times Oda has to repeat this concept? Harald, Vegapunk, the Revos, and we can go back.
You are perfectly entitled to think marines are evil scumbags, but if we have to analyse the perspective of the manga, the pov of the story, it's pretty clear - and even explicit - that the Marines are not supposed to be villains or bad at large, that's why there are mostly good people inside. Again, good people from the perspective of the manga, because we can argue all day how Garp or Sengoku could be bad people, but in the manga they are portrayed as good people.
In the manga, as said, even if you want to erase Harald's recent statement with some motivation (which is not holding up imho, but still), we have the revolutionaries themselves saying the problem are the CDs and not the Marines, or even the WG at large.
At EH there was another statement of this kind by Vegapunk:
And on and on.
So, how many times Oda has to repeat this concept? Harald, Vegapunk, the Revos, and we can go back.
You are perfectly entitled to think marines are evil scumbags, but if we have to analyse the perspective of the manga, the pov of the story, it's pretty clear - and even explicit - that the Marines are not supposed to be villains or bad at large, that's why there are mostly good people inside. Again, good people from the perspective of the manga, because we can argue all day how Garp or Sengoku could be bad people, but in the manga they are portrayed as good people.
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This is a pretty clear death of the author situation.
Oda obviously wants his readers to consider the “good” Marines separate from the bad Marines and the worst of the World Gov.
A reasonably sizeable number of readers are very unconvinced by that, especially as the World Gov atrocities escalate in scale with Marine involvement.
Oda obviously wants his readers to consider the “good” Marines separate from the bad Marines and the worst of the World Gov.
A reasonably sizeable number of readers are very unconvinced by that, especially as the World Gov atrocities escalate in scale with Marine involvement.
This is not really a death of the author situation though.
We are not talking about the interpretation of a text and the opinion of the author about his work, but the phrases and the concepts that the actual characters expressed inside the opera.
Inside the manga, Oda makes good characters, but basically every character, say that the Marines are good, except for some deepshit.
Now, we can agree or not as said, there are good reasons not to, but inside the story, it's clear that it's the perception. So, if we are discussing whether the Marines are villains or not inside the story, we cannot elude the fact that they are described in a certain way.
Even though I agree with what you are saying.
We are not talking about the interpretation of a text and the opinion of the author about his work, but the phrases and the concepts that the actual characters expressed inside the opera.
Inside the manga, Oda makes good characters, but basically every character, say that the Marines are good, except for some deepshit.
Now, we can agree or not as said, there are good reasons not to, but inside the story, it's clear that it's the perception. So, if we are discussing whether the Marines are villains or not inside the story, we cannot elude the fact that they are described in a certain way.
Even though I agree with what you are saying.
