General & Others Compiling a list of Wano Criticisms
- Thread starter Boy_Sabaw
- Start date
The thing is that we're already right in the middle of the fight against Kaido ... and the latter still feels like a completely empty character.
He's there just because he's the antagonist. That's the problem though. "Being the antagonist" is the only motivation behind his character so far and that's simply not great writing.
Crocodile had a masterplan to create "Utopia" and wanted Pluto, which was specifically said to be located in Alabasta.
Enel had a motivation to sink Skypiea (only him as God should be allowed to live in the sky) and wanted to travel to the moon, which is why he needed Skypiea's resources to create the Arch Maxim.
Spandam and CP9 had a perfect reason as to why they wanted Iceberg, Franky and Robin gone.
I could go on forever here. Every antagonist has a clear motivation as to why they are the antagonist in their specific arc. Kaido has no motivation whatsoever. He's the antagonist on Wano ... just because Wano needed an antagonist.
Because him not even looking for his "sworn brother" and best friend Oden for 6+ years (not even trying to just pay him a short visit), after tearfully swearing that they would meet asap after the latter's journey with Roger, is such painfully stupid writing, that most didn't even bother mentioning it again.
He's there just because he's the antagonist. That's the problem though. "Being the antagonist" is the only motivation behind his character so far and that's simply not great writing.
Crocodile had a masterplan to create "Utopia" and wanted Pluto, which was specifically said to be located in Alabasta.
Enel had a motivation to sink Skypiea (only him as God should be allowed to live in the sky) and wanted to travel to the moon, which is why he needed Skypiea's resources to create the Arch Maxim.
Spandam and CP9 had a perfect reason as to why they wanted Iceberg, Franky and Robin gone.
I could go on forever here. Every antagonist has a clear motivation as to why they are the antagonist in their specific arc. Kaido has no motivation whatsoever. He's the antagonist on Wano ... just because Wano needed an antagonist.
Because him not even looking for his "sworn brother" and best friend Oden for 6+ years (not even trying to just pay him a short visit), after tearfully swearing that they would meet asap after the latter's journey with Roger, is such painfully stupid writing, that most didn't even bother mentioning it again.
Five of them still needed to gang up against a Pacifista
General Franky is worth at least 5 Pacifistas at this point and yet 6 of Sasaki's squad were able to make him unable to move
And Kaido also has the Numbers who would stomp the majority of the Marines if the Vice Admirals and above don't interfere and Orochi's army
General Franky is worth at least 5 Pacifistas at this point and yet 6 of Sasaki's squad were able to make him unable to move
And Kaido also has the Numbers who would stomp the majority of the Marines if the Vice Admirals and above don't interfere and Orochi's army
I get your point, but there are 2 things to consider in that thought:
1. Like in WCI, there was nothing really happened which lead the Antagonist to go for something specificly. It was critizised alot before that when the Strawhats appear, there always was already something happening, like Enel with the Maxim, or the Revolution in Alabasta. Like it was needed for them to appear. So right in that moment, the antagonist was going for something. Right now, Kaido was just there at his territory, doing his usual business. His true motivation for piracy etc. pp. just can come through his flashback, because the strawhats and Luffy arent going against Kaido cause he is Kaido as person, but because he is a Yonko. So his motivation wasnt a real needed point for the strawhats.
2. We arent at that point where we get to know his motivation. Or did we got the motivation of Enel, Crocodile, Mingo etc. way before? It was also pretty late (sometimes more late, sometimes earlier), but i think we just need to wait for his flashback, or his great talking. Remember, we dont know anything about the others of his crew either, cause their fight doesnt happened. Give it some time. :)
1. Like in WCI, there was nothing really happened which lead the Antagonist to go for something specificly. It was critizised alot before that when the Strawhats appear, there always was already something happening, like Enel with the Maxim, or the Revolution in Alabasta. Like it was needed for them to appear. So right in that moment, the antagonist was going for something. Right now, Kaido was just there at his territory, doing his usual business. His true motivation for piracy etc. pp. just can come through his flashback, because the strawhats and Luffy arent going against Kaido cause he is Kaido as person, but because he is a Yonko. So his motivation wasnt a real needed point for the strawhats.
2. We arent at that point where we get to know his motivation. Or did we got the motivation of Enel, Crocodile, Mingo etc. way before? It was also pretty late (sometimes more late, sometimes earlier), but i think we just need to wait for his flashback, or his great talking. Remember, we dont know anything about the others of his crew either, cause their fight doesnt happened. Give it some time. :)
It’s even worse than that, because Kaido so far is established to have two conflicting motivations: to be the Pirate King (I assume this is the ultimate goal of his desire to start the world’s biggest war), and to die.
These motivations are in conflict and it does not make sense for him to have both. I guess you could say Kaido is an adrenaline junky at heart, and so what he really craves is just raw excitement? But if that’s the case, why does Oda draw him screaming in terror every time something happens to him? Literally this guy screamed in terror with the scabbards were giving him minor cuts and pushing him out of a window.
The guy who jumped 10,000 meters off a sky island, screamed in terror when the scabbards pushed him out of a window.
Akainu for reference, gritted his teeth through two earth quakes to the head and stomach, but Kaido is screaming his brains out when the scabbards give him paper cuts? Doflamingo laughed as Gear 2 punched him in the chest, but Kaido screams in pain from Killer?
If Kaido were a true adrenaline junky, he would be laughing off such minuscule injuries. I think the real problem is that Oda thinks that he is artistically incapable of actually showing Big Mom and Kaido getting injured, and so he has to draw both characters screaming in pain after taking small injuries so readers actually know they are being hurt?? Even if that does result in Big Mom and Kaido looking like pansies with no endurance whatsoever?
The sad thing is that this could’ve easily been avoided if Oda wouldn’t have made the incredibly stupid decision to make Kaido and Big Mom invincible freaks of nature. They should’ve just been relatively normal flesh and blood characters like anybody else in OP, now it’s a mystery how much damage they’re actually taking because on-panel it looks like they’re only taking minor wounds, but they’re screaming their heads off as if they’re having limbs blown off.
At the end of the day, this makes both characters look like little Bitches with zero pain tolerance, and it’s impossible to take them seriously as villains. I doubt Oda intended to portray these clowns this way, I think he wants us to perceive the Yonko as being legitimate threats, but like...imagine if Doflamingo was screaming in pain when Baby 5 shot him in the face with a bazooka. All of Doflamingo’s legendary charisma would’ve been flushed straight down the toilet instantly.
Well, welcome to Big Job and Crydo.
These motivations are in conflict and it does not make sense for him to have both. I guess you could say Kaido is an adrenaline junky at heart, and so what he really craves is just raw excitement? But if that’s the case, why does Oda draw him screaming in terror every time something happens to him? Literally this guy screamed in terror with the scabbards were giving him minor cuts and pushing him out of a window.
The guy who jumped 10,000 meters off a sky island, screamed in terror when the scabbards pushed him out of a window.
Akainu for reference, gritted his teeth through two earth quakes to the head and stomach, but Kaido is screaming his brains out when the scabbards give him paper cuts? Doflamingo laughed as Gear 2 punched him in the chest, but Kaido screams in pain from Killer?
If Kaido were a true adrenaline junky, he would be laughing off such minuscule injuries. I think the real problem is that Oda thinks that he is artistically incapable of actually showing Big Mom and Kaido getting injured, and so he has to draw both characters screaming in pain after taking small injuries so readers actually know they are being hurt?? Even if that does result in Big Mom and Kaido looking like pansies with no endurance whatsoever?
The sad thing is that this could’ve easily been avoided if Oda wouldn’t have made the incredibly stupid decision to make Kaido and Big Mom invincible freaks of nature. They should’ve just been relatively normal flesh and blood characters like anybody else in OP, now it’s a mystery how much damage they’re actually taking because on-panel it looks like they’re only taking minor wounds, but they’re screaming their heads off as if they’re having limbs blown off.
At the end of the day, this makes both characters look like little Bitches with zero pain tolerance, and it’s impossible to take them seriously as villains. I doubt Oda intended to portray these clowns this way, I think he wants us to perceive the Yonko as being legitimate threats, but like...imagine if Doflamingo was screaming in pain when Baby 5 shot him in the face with a bazooka. All of Doflamingo’s legendary charisma would’ve been flushed straight down the toilet instantly.
Well, welcome to Big Job and Crydo.
My biggest issue with kaido is his intro and his reactions in this arc to being attacked contradict each other massively.
Every single time hes hit with ryou he goes into shock but then he equates it to oden.
3 times thats happened with the scabbards luffy and zoro he references oden when hes hit.
The issue is his intro says he challenged the yonko and the navy numerous times. Ryou is NOT that uncommon especially for the top fighters in those groups
Hes not fought oden for 20 odd years
So whose he fought in that time that his reference for being hurt is STILL oden
How has he fought shanks (someone whose ryou is probably > odens) yet he still equates damage taken to oden.
How can he have fought roger and wb 2 superior weapons and haki users to oden yet oden still be his reference to being hurt and why didnt those two weapons users rip him open like oden did.
This is without going into why the navy tried to execute him multiple times yet failed despite having top ryou users and access to seastone.
Every single time hes hit with ryou he goes into shock but then he equates it to oden.
3 times thats happened with the scabbards luffy and zoro he references oden when hes hit.
The issue is his intro says he challenged the yonko and the navy numerous times. Ryou is NOT that uncommon especially for the top fighters in those groups
Hes not fought oden for 20 odd years
So whose he fought in that time that his reference for being hurt is STILL oden
How has he fought shanks (someone whose ryou is probably > odens) yet he still equates damage taken to oden.
How can he have fought roger and wb 2 superior weapons and haki users to oden yet oden still be his reference to being hurt and why didnt those two weapons users rip him open like oden did.
This is without going into why the navy tried to execute him multiple times yet failed despite having top ryou users and access to seastone.
- The overuse and overwank of Oden and Ace.
- Tama's devil fruit working on Smiles users.
- The waterfall issue with Prometheus being conveniently absent the first time, the BMP taking so long to make another attempt to cross the waterfall and being kicked by Marco again despite having many powers and means to cross the waterfall long before and without even needing the carps.
- Big Mom's amnesia plot with her turning amnesiac so easely and conveniently, Napoleon not saying or doing anything, her recovering her memory after Queen's attack and conveniently falling asleep before she could attack Queen.
- The Beast Pirates and Orochi's forces not looking for the other Straw Hats and their allies after the fight between Luffy and Kaido, Law having been spotted too and the ruckus caused by Zoro and Sanji.
- Udon's training subplot.
- Marco saying that he won't come only to go anyway too easely.
- The Beast Pirates not checking if things were truly right in Udon.
- Luffy and Zoro letting Gazelleman get away with Tama.
- The Supernovas and Straw Hats letting Kanjuro escape so easely with Momonosuke. Also them not being able of dealing with the third ship until Jinbei's convenient arrival.
- The second half of Oden's flashback with Oden stupidely agreeing to make a deal with Orochi and Kaido and him dancing and humiliating himself. Kaido calling him a foolish lord was actually a nice and polite understatement from Kaido's part.
- Big Mom being mistreated and clowned by the plot again.
- Kaido staying in his dragon form much longer than needed so he can be hit and injured by attacks.
- The Scabbards being able of copying Oden and injuring Kaido that easely despite the massive gap in power between them and their leader.
- Luffy using G3 with Koka on a fodder and him using G4 on a single ship despite needing much less power to obtain the same results. Him also blowing his cover so quickly and easely but then again it's nothing surprising.
- Sanji and Nami vs Kalifa 2.00.
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-Perospero coming to Onigashima alone and him vs Carrot and Wanda, the whole "he killed Pedro" issue.
- Queen and King being sidelined during the raid.
- Tama's devil fruit working on Smiles users.
- The waterfall issue with Prometheus being conveniently absent the first time, the BMP taking so long to make another attempt to cross the waterfall and being kicked by Marco again despite having many powers and means to cross the waterfall long before and without even needing the carps.
- Big Mom's amnesia plot with her turning amnesiac so easely and conveniently, Napoleon not saying or doing anything, her recovering her memory after Queen's attack and conveniently falling asleep before she could attack Queen.
- The Beast Pirates and Orochi's forces not looking for the other Straw Hats and their allies after the fight between Luffy and Kaido, Law having been spotted too and the ruckus caused by Zoro and Sanji.
- Udon's training subplot.
- Marco saying that he won't come only to go anyway too easely.
- The Beast Pirates not checking if things were truly right in Udon.
- Luffy and Zoro letting Gazelleman get away with Tama.
- The Supernovas and Straw Hats letting Kanjuro escape so easely with Momonosuke. Also them not being able of dealing with the third ship until Jinbei's convenient arrival.
- The second half of Oden's flashback with Oden stupidely agreeing to make a deal with Orochi and Kaido and him dancing and humiliating himself. Kaido calling him a foolish lord was actually a nice and polite understatement from Kaido's part.
- Big Mom being mistreated and clowned by the plot again.
- Kaido staying in his dragon form much longer than needed so he can be hit and injured by attacks.
- The Scabbards being able of copying Oden and injuring Kaido that easely despite the massive gap in power between them and their leader.
- Luffy using G3 with Koka on a fodder and him using G4 on a single ship despite needing much less power to obtain the same results. Him also blowing his cover so quickly and easely but then again it's nothing surprising.
- Sanji and Nami vs Kalifa 2.00.
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-Perospero coming to Onigashima alone and him vs Carrot and Wanda, the whole "he killed Pedro" issue.
- Queen and King being sidelined during the raid.
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oh shit here we go again...
- every one was just waiting in wano until luffy came then the action started.
- luffy and zoro can sense a dumb sword but gazellman goes unnoticed.
- the crew surviving boru breath was bullshit.
- straw hats, heart pirates and kid pirates arriving to the rendezvous at the same time. how did kid know.
- how the fuck did jinbie got there despite the confusion about the port.
- big mom's Amnesia.
- kaido doesn't kill strong people+not killing momo when he had the chance.
- udon prison.
- sanji's out of no where mastery of the raid suit.
- oden is the male good version of big mom.
- marco's letter disappointment.
- enma.
- a lot of clutch moments.
- big mom pirate are a joke.
- zoro missing a town sized dragon.
- instead of just killing sanji, black maria wants him to call robin for help.
- was it so hard for yamato to just tell ace that roger said the same word luffy said?
- oden dancing for 5 years.
- every one was just waiting in wano until luffy came then the action started.
- luffy and zoro can sense a dumb sword but gazellman goes unnoticed.
- the crew surviving boru breath was bullshit.
- straw hats, heart pirates and kid pirates arriving to the rendezvous at the same time. how did kid know.
- how the fuck did jinbie got there despite the confusion about the port.
- big mom's Amnesia.
- kaido doesn't kill strong people+not killing momo when he had the chance.
- udon prison.
- sanji's out of no where mastery of the raid suit.
- oden is the male good version of big mom.
- marco's letter disappointment.
- enma.
- a lot of clutch moments.
- big mom pirate are a joke.
- zoro missing a town sized dragon.
- instead of just killing sanji, black maria wants him to call robin for help.
- was it so hard for yamato to just tell ace that roger said the same word luffy said?
- oden dancing for 5 years.
Two things become clear to me with this thread:
1. We're in dire need of some Kaido flashback and character exploration.
2. People need to chill out lol.
If you really wanted to you could overanalyze the entire manga and find conveniences, plot holes, off screening of events and unexplained plot points at every turn since the start. Oda has never been some perfect writer and will probably never be, but the heart of the manga is still going strong.
1. We're in dire need of some Kaido flashback and character exploration.
2. People need to chill out lol.
If you really wanted to you could overanalyze the entire manga and find conveniences, plot holes, off screening of events and unexplained plot points at every turn since the start. Oda has never been some perfect writer and will probably never be, but the heart of the manga is still going strong.