Future Events Contra Zoro vs King

What will Zoro do after he recovers?


  • Total voters
    93
  • Poll closed .
#21
No thats not what i meant, i meant zoro fighting with Luffy... Not solo.. Since what you said depicted that Luffy should be the primary fighter against Kaido without zoro being secondary
Do you think Zoro won't be eclipsed by Luffy if he ends up fighting alongside him as a final confrontation against Kaido? That's the problem I see with Kaido being Zoro's only fighting achievement in Wano.
 
#24
Do you think Zoro won't be eclipsed by Luffy if he ends up fighting alongside him as a final confrontation against Kaido?
Thats not the point.. Zoro fighting Kaido is what matters... His involvement won't be slight.. Since oda hyped enma and zoro's wish alot..
Post automatically merged:

Nope, there is much Bigger Hint
Actually it's Spoiler for entire Wano End, not just ZKK
It better not be some far-fetched omni-piece theory.. I'll be waiting.. Tag me if you want
 
#25
No, no, the false dichotomy I'm referring is why the thread assumes it has to be King OR Kaido, not both of them at different points and degrees during what's left of Wano. Obviously the minimum he should get is King.
oh my bad .
yep this was my first wish or expectation at the start of onigashima
that zoro only fight kaidou at the start and at the end between them he is busty with king .
---
but yeah if zoro did then this too good better than zkk alone
king and kaidou in one arc ?! this too much. that's why some find it not possible.
but it could happen , luffy did almost the same thing in WCI cracker then kata.
if oda want really to highlight zoro Role in this arc then yeah this how its done let him have this much.
 
#28
Thats not the point.. Zoro fighting Kaido is what matters... His involvement won't be slight.. Since oda hyped enma and zoro's wish alot..
But it's the point I was making because I don't see how Zoro participating in a fight that belongs to Luffy since way before as his main fighting role in Wano isn't anticlimatic; especially considering how poorly Oda managed Zoro's first achievement against Kaido (personally I found the scarring scene to be completely uninspired and a failure).
 
#30
But it's the point I was making because I don't see how Zoro participating on a fight that belongs to Luffy since way before as his main fighting role in Wano isn't anticlimatic; especially considering how poorly Oda managed Zoro's first achievement against Kaido (personally I found the scarring scene to be completely uninspired and a failure).
Thats the point... Its not only Luffy's fight..Luffy isn't the only one who has rigid intentions to beat kaido up,you have zoro and yamato too... the fact that zoro couldn't achieve what he wanted... And him getting a sliver of a change to fight kaido at his peak again which he couldn't coz he was compromised.. You bet he'd take that opportunity to do a number on him and assert himself as the monstrous swordsman Kaido said would never come about again..
 
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#31
Hiyori after giving Enma to Zoro: find a way to SAVE wano.
Zoro leading the samurai moment is yet to come. Idk how he'll achieve this by fighting King tho lol. I'm fine if he fight King too but him fighting Kaido have more chances since his primary goal was kaido from the very start of raid. He clearly ignored King at live floor too. Also he doesn't know about Yamato's existence and all he knows is that Kaido is coming to wipe out live floor. So i might see him planning to go towards Kaido
 

Roronoa-sama

Magic Sword, Magic Swordsman, and Can Cut Anything
#32
Courtesy of @Cinera


Contra Zoro vs King
Disclaimer
As usual, I tag a lot of people for my posts. If you want to be removed from my tag lists, let me know. Likewise, if you want to be added.


Introduction
It seems to be taken for granted by the majority of the fanbase that Zoro will fight King after his recovery:


I was slightly leaning towards Zoro vs King for the last month or two, but I've reconsidered my position after extensive discussion with others. I now think Zoro probably wouldn't fight King, but I'm only weakly confident (51% - 55%). Normally such low confidence in a position would not merit a thread, but given how the position I think to be incorrect (however unsure I may be) is the majority opinion, I feel sort of obligated to refute it.

The post is going to be long (3,000+ words and 37 images), so buckle in.

The post will be structured as follows:
  1. The most reasonable arguments for Zoro vs King and why I find them lacking.
  2. The case against Zoro vs King
  3. Conclusions
  4. Summary


Arguments for Zoro Vs King
There are six main arguments I'm aware of for Zoro vs King:
  1. The meta-narrative
  2. Zoro's current location
  3. The Beast Pirates are reserved for the Strawhats
  4. Zoro is done with Kaido
  5. King can be used to stall Zoro
  6. King can help Zoro improve his Haoshoku

I'll give a brief overview of each argument, and then explain my reservations with them.

#1: The meta narrative
King fits the archetype of Zoro's traditional arc opponents.
  • Archetype characteristics
    1. He's the strongest subordinate of the antagonist.
    2. He's a swordsman.
    3. He seems to share a rivalry with Sanji's opponent.
    4. He's overly serious.
  • Other examples:
    • Cabaji (2/4)
    • Daz Bones (4/4)
    • Kaku (3/4)
    • Ohm (2/4)
    • Ryuma (3/4)
    • Hyouzou (2/4)

I think this is a somewhat persuasive meta argument. However, no matter how compelling they are, such superficial similarities should not take precedence over an in story narrative. Zoro has no actual narrative with King and instead has quite the extensive (and unfinished) story with Kaido.

I feel that the disparity in narrative rules out King as being Zoro's main arc opponent. Thus the superficial similarities to Zoro's prior arc opponents are not convincing. That said, I could see King taking the role of a minor opponent for Zoro akin to Ryuma.

#2: Zoro's Current Location
Some believe that Zoro was only brought to the Live Floor to face King. If Oda intended for Zoro to face Kaido, why not leave him on the Rooftop? It makes no sense to send Zoro below the Rooftop and then send him right back up to the Rooftop. That would be needlessly convoluted.

I disagree with the two main claims of the above argument.

Zoro wasn't sent below the Rooftop just to face King (if that is indeed what Oda was planning), but also — primarily — to receive healing:


Whether Zoro is fighting King or not, Oda would have still sent him to Chopper's location for treatment. Chopper's role for the remainder of the arc seems to be overseeing Zoro's recovery.

As for the convolutedness of sending Zoro below the Rooftop for treatment then sending him back to the Rooftop, I don't see it as a stumbling block? Oda's handling of Yamato vs Kaido was far more convoluted:
  • Yamato was running around with Momonosuke for nearly 20 chapters.
  • Kaido was on the Rooftop for that duration.
    • Oda deliberately avoided Yamato trying to head to the Rooftop when Kaido was on it.
  • Yamato wants to fight Kaido.
  • Kaido wants to kill Momonosuke.
  • Yamato separates from Momonosuke to head to the Rooftop.
  • Immediately after, Kaido goes to kill Momonosuke while Yamato heads to an empty Rooftop.
    • If Yamato had remained with Momonosuke she would have encountered Kaido.
    • If Kaido had remained on the Rooftop he would have encountered Yamato.
  • Yamato challenges Kaido from the Rooftop.
  • Kaido flies back to the Rooftop and their battle begins.

The sheer convolutedness of Yamato vs Kaido seriously undermines any argument along the lines of: "It makes no sense to send Zoro below the Rooftop and then send him right back up to the Rooftop". At least Zoro being sent below the Rooftop was a requirement for his healing.

#3: Marco Cannot Defeat King
The most reasonable argument against Marco vs King I've seen is that Marco cannot defeat King because the Beast Pirate Executives are reserved for the Strawhats.

I think this argument is just plain wrong as I'm pretty confident that Inuarashi will be the one to defeat Jack. Oda showed Inuarashi vs Jack alongside Franky vs Sasaki and Jimbe vs Who's Who, with all three fights featuring the subordinates interfering with our heroes.

We later saw the converted Gifters deal with the interfering subordinates and free up both Jimbe and Inuarashi to deal with their respective opponents:


I think Inuarashi is meant to be Jack's main matchup. This debunks this entire argument.

There may be other reasons one has to oppose Marco vs King, but I don't think any has been articulated clearly (persuasively?) enough that I feel the need to refute them. If one is presented, I may add it to this section in the future.

#4: Zoro is Done With Kaido
The argument is that Zoro's story with Kaido has completed. In Chapter 1010 Luffy asked Zoro (and Law) to leave matters to him, and declared that no matter what, he will defeat Kaido:

Later in Chapter 1012, Zoro reaffirmed Luffy's declaration and declared that Luffy will definitely prevail:

Zoro has already entrusted the battle with Kaido to Luffy and has no business fighting Kaido anymore.


I think this is an actually persuasive argument (especially as it has ample basis in the manga) but remain unconvinced. The crux of my disagreement is that Zoro has a lot of unfinished business with Kaido, and I do not believe that Oda will leave those plot threads unresolved. As such, I simply cannot accept the conclusion, regardless of how persuasive the argument initially appears to be.

If Zoro's unfinished business with Kaido is to be resolved — and I'm moderately confident it will be — then Zoro is going to confront Kaido again.

#5: King can be used to stall Zoro
The story does not need Zoro to fight Kaido right now:
  • Yamato is currently stalling Kaido.
    • Thus, Zoro is not needed to fulfil the role of stalling Kaido.
  • Yamato stated that she would hold back Kaido until Luffy returns.
    • She'll probably succeed at that.
  • Yamato and Kaido's battle needs privacy due to their personal relationship.
    • It's unlikely that Zoro will interfere.

As such, something will be needed to occupy Zoro in the interim. Given that Zoro is on a time limit when he recovers, he'll likely immediately jump to fighting, and after Kaido, King is the most suitable opponent.

While King can be used to stall Zoro, I don't think he will be needed to fill this role. Chapter 1017 featured Chopper and Miyagi decide to administer the ultra regenerative medicine to Zoro. The effects of the medicine and Zoro's actual recovery can take as long as Oda needs it to. There is no real guarantee that Zoro will be fully recovered within the next 5 chapters, and to be honest I do not expect him to be. It seems that Chopper's role for the rest of the arc will be Zoro's treatment:



So I don't really expect this to be completed quickly.

Furthermore, Zoro and Luffy were shown receiving treatment in the same chapter:


If this was deliberate (and if it continues), then Zoro will return to action at the same time as Luffy (this may be after Yamato and/or King have been defeated).

If Oda takes the long route with Zoro's recovery, then King will not be needed (and may be unable) to stall Zoro.

#6: King can help Zoro improve his Haoshoku
Last but not least, I (and others) have floated the argument that a battle with King might help Zoro learn (or further refine) the ability to clad himself and his weapons with Haoshoku. Zoro seemed unaware that he used Haoshoku against Kaido in 1010:


His words to Sanji reinforce that it is an ability that he is himself unaware of:

I am not against Zoro getting a hang of Advanced Haoshoku before challenging Kaido again, but:
  • Zoro's next major power-up has been hinted to be Blackening Enma and not Advanced Haoshoku per se:
    • Blackening Enma (if it happens this arc) would happen against Kaido.
  • Kaido offers Zoro a much better opportunity to refine his Haoshoku further as haki blooms in the height of combat:
[*]Zoro has indicated an urgency to return to combat (presumably against Kaido), and so probably wouldn't take a training detour:


Against Zoro vs King
In this section, I would like to cover the main arguments that have dissuaded me from Zoro vs King. I also recommend that you see this wonderful post by @spawn.

There are four main arguments:
  1. A lack of narrative for Zoro vs King
  2. A lack of reason for Zoro vs King
  3. A lack of purpose for Zoro vs King
  4. A lack of setup for Zoro vs King


A Lack of Narrative
There is no narrative tying Zoro and King together. By itself, this isn't such a critical stumbling block as Zoro has fought several opponents with whom he has no narrative. However, when you factor in Zoro's extensive and unfinished narrative with Kaido, it becomes a compelling argument against the match.

Why should Zoro fight King — with whom he has no story — when his story with Kaido has not yet been completed?

Furthermore, most other Executives battles had a narrative that made the fight meaningful, beyond just being a battle between a member of the Alliance and one of Kaido's Executives.

Robin and Black Maria
Black Maria wanted to capture Robin for Kaido:



Jimbe vs Who's Who
Who's Who was introduced as someone who recognised Jimbe from his time as a Warlord, and whose true identity was of some importance:

Inuarashi vs Jack
Jack wanted to settle his grudge with the minks and get revenge, warning Black Maria not to intervene:

Inuarashi decided to engage Jack to prevent him from making any more victims:

Queen vs Sanji
Queen vs Sanji was first set up when it was revealed that Queen had some connection to Sanji's biological father (Judge).

We, later on, learn that Queen and Judge were part of the same research group (MADS):


The fight would serve to conclude Sanji's unresolved plotline with the Vinsmokes and offer him the opportunity to fully acknowledge his name and heritage, something that he commended Momonosuke for doing:

Given how most other Executive fights had some narrative backing them up, the abject lack of a narrative for Zoro vs King really undermines the credibility of that particular matchup.


A Lack of Reason
Narrative aside, there's no actual in story or character consistent reason for Zoro to fight King:
  • Zoro doesn't want to fight King.
    • King also doesn't want to fight Zoro.
  • Zoro does not need to fight King.
    • King is currently fighting Marco and has no freedom to interfere with Zoro.

There have been no interactions between Zoro and King. The one time Zoro and King were featured in the same chapter, Zoro completely ignored King and showed him no more regard than he did Queen:

As a matter of fact, Zoro has had more interactions with Queen than he has with King.

Queen held Zoro's bounty poster while mentioning the need to take out the top fighters of the Strawhat Pirates:

Zoro cut Queen's Gatling Gun, then declared that he had no time to waste with Queen's games:

The abject lack of any real interaction between Zoro and King seriously undermines the validity of the matchup for me.


A Lack of Purpose
From a meta perspective, there's no actual purpose to a Zoro vs King fight:
  • A Zoro vs King battle accomplishes nothing for Zoro.
    • Zoro already knows how to cut fire.
    • King is not the strongest swordsman on Onigashima (that's Linlin).
    • Zoro is unlikely to grow stronger through fighting King, as so far, Oda has made Zoro look like the much more formidable combatant.
    • As far as we're aware, King has no connection to Zoro's backstory.
  • A Zoro vs King fight accomplishes nothing for the story.
    • Marco is available to defeat King, so Zoro isn't needed.
    • A king fight isn't even needed to stall Zoro before he returns to the Rooftop, as his recovery can take as long as Oda chooses.

  • An example of a fight that has a purpose would be Queen and Sanji:
    • Fighting Queen would provide an avenue to explore Judge's history in more detail.
    • Fighting Queen would provide an avenue for Sanji to become much stronger.
      • Considering the outcome of Sanji's brief clash with King, even with his Raid Suit, he's considerably below the likes of the Calamities.
      • Sanji could learn how to fully maximise the capabilities of his Raid Suit and combine it with his Diable Jambe and/or (potential) Vinsmoke enhancements.
    • Fighting Queen would provide an avenue for Sanji to accept his Vinsmoke heritage, completing his unresolved story from Whole Cake Island.
      • Sanji commended Momonosuke for boldly declaring his Kozuki name:
      • Might Sanji also boldly declare his name as "Vinsmoke Sanji" and fully accept Germa's power?

The lack of a compelling meta-purpose to Zoro vs King is another reason I'm doubtful of the fight; what is the point of Zoro fighting King?


A Lack of Setup
There is still no setup for Zoro to fight King, and I'm starting to get worried that we're at a point where it may be too late to do so.

I think we've moved past the stage of setting up the Executives fights, and we're now at the part where the Executives begin to fall in quick succession. As such, I think the Executives matchups we're seeing currently are the final matchups.

The reason I believe the setup phase is over is due to the progression of the Executives' fights over the last ~3 chapters:
  • 1015:
    • Start of Queen vs Sanji
    • The last Executive fight to be set up (?)
    • Setup for Yamato vs Kaido
  • 1016:
    • Events
      • Ulti is defeated.
      • Ulti and Pay Pay's defeats are announced.
      • Beast Pirates fodder ask if they are going to lose.
      • Start of Yamato vs Kaido.
    • The Executives begin to fall.
  • 1017
    • Events
      • Stragglers are removed from the Executives' battles:
        • Jimbe vs Who's Who
          • Who's Who transforms into his Hybrid form
        • Sasaki vs Franky
        • Inuarashi vs Jack
      • All these fights properly begin in this chapter.
      • Queen transforms into Hybrid.
        • Proper start of Sanji vs Queen.
      • 4 battles intensified in this chapter with 2 Hybrid reveals and 3 battles seeing the stragglers removed.
    • The Executives battles really pick up.
  • 1018:
    • Events
      • Jimbe vs Who's Who
        • Who's Who's apparent defeat
    • Chapter dedicated to an Executive fight
    • Another Executive is defeated (?)

If Who's Who is confirmed to truly be defeated in 1019, then it would reinforce my position that we've moved past the setup phase.


What's Next for Zoro?
I think that Zoro is going to have another confrontation with Kaido. Zoro has a lot of unfinished business with Kaido, and I addressed that in a dedicated thread.

I don't want to rehash either of those two threads here (this is way too long already), but suffice it to say that there's been no closure to the following scenes, and such closure is best delivered through another encounter between Zoro and Kaido.


Yasuie's Declaration
At his execution, Yasuie declared that for 20 years no one has been able to take Kaido's head, Zoro heard him and called out to him:


Kaido is yet alive.


Enma
Hitetsu suggested that Zoro might surpass Oden, and forge Enma into a kokuto:

Enma is still not yet black.


Kaido and Oden
Kaido despairs that never again shall a monster samurai of Oden's calibre appear before him:

Kaido has still not yet recognised the existence of a monster samurai of Oden's calibre.


Zoro's Declaration
Zoro had an entire character arc in Onigashima about his desire to face Kaido in combat. This character arc culminated in an earth-shattering declaration that he came to cut down Kaido:

Zoro has still not yet cut down Kaido.



Conclusions
At this point, I think Zoro probably doesn't fight King. I'm not really aware of any strong arguments in favour of the fight, and there are several arguments that I find compelling against the fight.

I find Marco to be a more compelling candidate as King's opponent. I'll make the argument for Marco vs King some other time.


Summary
To summarise what I've said above:
  1. The arguments in favour of Zoro vs King suck:
  2. There are strong arguments against Zoro vs King.
    • There is no narrative tying Zoro and King together.
    • There's no actual in story or character consistent reason for Zoro to fight King
    • From a meta perspective, there's no actual purpose to a Zoro vs King fight
    • There is still no setup for Zoro vs King, and we may have moved past the setup phase for the Executives' fights.
  3. When Zoro returns to action, it will be for another confrontation with Kaido.


The majory fanbase doesn't want zoro vs king there are zorohaters, candiboys and condoms (indeed the majory of zorofans never has wanted king who is the sanji from the kaido crew)
 
#34
The majory fanbase doesn't want zoro vs king there are zorohaters, candiboys and condoms (indeed the majory of zorofans never has wanted king who is the sanji from the kaido crew)
The majority of the fanbase isn't so obsessed with a comic for young teens to speak of zorohaters, candiboys and condoms as if those were anything but toxic idiocies from the most vocal, yet most ridiculous, faction of the readers.
 

Seth

𝐊𝐨𝐤𝐮𝐭𝐨 𝐒𝐡𝐮𝐬𝐮𝐢
#37
If he goes to fight King Oda is simply retarded. After all Zoro showings on the roof. Placing him against King is a disrespect to Zoro and King fans

King is useless, zero hype atm and he is basically flying around doing nothing. Zoro still can provide some damage to Kaido which might matter later on.

King vs Zoro was a nice matchup before Zoro reached the roof. Now it's pointless.
 
#38
King vs Zoro was a nice matchup before Zoro told Queen he doesn't give a fuck about them. Now it's pointless.
FTFY

On a serious note, even if we ignore powerscaling, Zoro v King only made sense narratively while Luffy was fighting Kaido and Zoro left it all to him.

But now we have Luffy defeated, Kaido running rampant, Momo in danger of being caught by him, etc, and Zoro is supposed to attack King going "sord fite!!"

Yeahhhh. That makes no sense
 

Seth

𝐊𝐨𝐤𝐮𝐭𝐨 𝐒𝐡𝐮𝐬𝐮𝐢
#39
FTFY

On a serious note, even if we ignore powerscaling, Zoro v King only made sense narratively while Luffy was fighting Kaido and Zoro left it all to him.

But now we have Luffy defeated, Kaido running rampant, Momo in danger of being caught by him, etc, and Zoro is supposed to attack King going "sord fite!!"

Yeahhhh. That makes no sense
and on top of that.

Is King like some CoO/CoA/CoC master that we got to know before?

Imagine if Oda randomly gives King CoC or advCoA after what Marco did to him and Queen.

It's like lmao.
 
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