Current Events Do Unearned Powerups Destroy Tension In Storytelling?

Ass Pull Powerups in One Piece Are:


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#41
Maybe because Zoro trains his ass everyday ?
It's not like Luffy or Sanji who barely train and have PU to save their asses. Whenever Zoro gets a PU it's at the limit of death and need to train with that PU.
He got CoC against Kaido, but he isn't using it against King since he didn't even understand what happened. And he was half dead.

Luffy at the very least ? lol Zoro trained with Mihawk, someone comparable to kaido or akainu for two years, enough said.
Luffy saw Kaido using adv.coc and suddenly know how to use it and recking kaido in base form lmao!
Zoro saw Kinemon use Foxfire style once, and suddenly knows how to use it. Ironically, the perfect ability one needs when fighting against an opponent from a God Race that specializes in Manipulating fire.

Luffy took the principle of AdCoA, which he trained for, and applied it to CoC.

Zoro literally learned an entire fighting style, by witnessing it once, with zero training at all.
 
#42
My favorite fight ever I think it's Ippo vs Sendo champion title match.
It's a rematch against an opponent had ALREADY defeated, but we had some "bittersweet" feeling from the first fight ending, and almost thought it was "luck" the Ippo managed to won.
But the second fight? Ippo is recovered from his first professional loss, Sendo became champion before Ippo and got much stronger.
How does the fight begin? With Sendo showing superiority?
No.
It starts with Ippo going all out with his strongest move and immediately getting a Down. After that we have an amazing back and forth of strats, moves, etc.
Despite the fact that I KNEW Ippo was going to win, boy I was so freaking thrilled during the entire thing. The ending? Holy fuck one of the HYPEST moment in any fight I've watched in shounens.

The difference between fights on Hajime no Ippo and fights on One Piece, is that on Hajime, strats matter. Training matter. Training pays off.
It's not a matter of "train, get stronger, gets shit on either way, win by unlocking mysterious new power".
In Hajime we SEE the character developing his techniques. We see them further improving them on practice. It's not just "So...my legs now burns" or "I can grow multiple limbs", or "ok, I'm gonna use the same technique, but I'm gonna call it a different number so it gets whatever random thing I want".
 
#44
My favorite fight ever I think it's Ippo vs Sendo champion title match.
It's a rematch against an opponent had ALREADY defeated, but we had some "bittersweet" feeling from the first fight ending, and almost thought it was "luck" the Ippo managed to won.
But the second fight? Ippo is recovered from his first professional loss, Sendo became champion before Ippo and got much stronger.
How does the fight begin? With Sendo showing superiority?
No.
It starts with Ippo going all out with his strongest move and immediately getting a Down. After that we have an amazing back and forth of strats, moves, etc.
Despite the fact that I KNEW Ippo was going to win, boy I was so freaking thrilled during the entire thing. The ending? Holy fuck one of the HYPEST moment in any fight I've watched in shounens.

The difference between fights on Hajime no Ippo and fights on One Piece, is that on Hajime, strats matter. Training matter. Training pays off.
It's not a matter of "train, get stronger, gets shit on either way, win by unlocking mysterious new power".
In Hajime we SEE the character developing his techniques. We see them further improving them on practice. It's not just "So...my legs now burns" or "I can grow multiple limbs", or "ok, I'm gonna use the same technique, but I'm gonna call it a different number so it gets whatever random thing I want".
Sports manga is a different ball game. Entire manga success or failure depends on drama in the vs matches.
 
#47
On other note
Luffy got powerups midfight however that just put him in same playing field. He didn't win against Katakuri as soon as he started seeing future, he had won against Katakuri in the battle of wills. Even now against Kaidou he lost even after gaining adCoC before current situation. Let us take Zoro on other hand, Zoro got BOAT, Mr. 1 out. Zoro got Ashura, Kaku out. Sanji got DJ, Jabra out. Luffy got G2 and G3, still burnt his ass to beat Lucci. Just hope that Zoro vs King, Sanji vs Queen won't end like that.
 
#48
It's pretty surprising to me how many people read One Piece for the fights, when it's easily the weakest part of the story. And that's because it's not about the fights.

They are often just a vehicle to progress the plot, a battle of wills more than anything else. There's a reason why even characters who aren't combat oriented (like Usopp, Robin, Nami) end up in fights and get their asses kicked. Then suddenly they shout that they believe in their friends/Luffy will become the pirate king, and somehow come out on top by the end.


It's to show that they have a greater conviction in their dream, and a more righteous goal than their (typically) sleezebag opponent. It's not about who can punch harder or who put in more time training in the hyperbolic time chamber or conjured the perfect nen beast after maintaining Ryou for 16 hours.

Sanji is one of the few combat oriented Strawhats and - what a shocker - even he's just the ship's cook! After we just got an entire arc centered around Sanji's personal conflict and growth, it absolutely blows my mind that people are still expecting some sort of training arc to show how his Diable Jambe got 5 degrees hotter.

Maybe, follow me for a second, this arc isn't just about some war. It's also about the burden of inherited will. Momo being forced to live up to his father's image, when he is a coward and a weakling - having to sacrifice decades of his life just to be useful. Yamato being the daughter of Kaido, wanting to be like Oden but simultaneously not wanting to be the Shogun because that's what her father, Oden's murderer, wants for her. No wonder she got along with Ace, a guy who was executed for being Roger's son - executed for the crime of existing. And Luffy inherited that from him, having to shoulder the burden of an entire country simply because Ace could never return to fulfill his promise. Robin, the Ohara demon, having to come to terms with her past and embrace the image of a demon that people place on her. Was this some asspull, too, just because we didn't watch her train Demonio with the Revs for 10 chapters?


And now Sanji. A guy who hates his family lineage, who doesn't want to be associated with Judge. But in order to save others he is forced to use his raid suit - his father's creation. At every possible turn people refer to him as Stealth Black, one of the Germa, son of Judge. It happened in this exact chapter, where he's even fighting a former colleague of his father's. No matter how much he runs away from it, he benefits from being a Vinsmoke. And now he's truly becoming a monster like his siblings, all because of something completely out of his control.

The whole point of this is that you can't run away from who you are. You can't escape your fate. You have to embrace it and turn it into something positive, make it your own. It's not about some highly intricate kung fu powerup that Sanji spent 2 years learning with the Okama to master. It's about destiny. This was already laid out in plain English right at the beginning of the story, remember?

 
#50
It's pretty surprising to me how many people read One Piece for the fights, when it's easily the weakest part of the story. And that's because it's not about the fights.

They are often just a vehicle to progress the plot, a battle of wills more than anything else. There's a reason why even characters who aren't combat oriented (like Usopp, Robin, Nami) end up in fights and get their asses kicked. Then suddenly they shout that they believe in their friends/Luffy will become the pirate king, and somehow come out on top by the end.


It's to show that they have a greater conviction in their dream, and a more righteous goal than their (typically) sleezebag opponent. It's not about who can punch harder or who put in more time training in the hyperbolic time chamber or conjured the perfect nen beast after maintaining Ryou for 16 hours.

Sanji is one of the few combat oriented Strawhats and - what a shocker - even he's just the ship's cook! After we just got an entire arc centered around Sanji's personal conflict and growth, it absolutely blows my mind that people are expecting some sort of training arc to show how his Diable Jambe got 5 degrees hotter.

Maybe, follow me for a second, this arc isn't just about some war. It's also about the burden of inherited will. Momo being forced to live up to his father's image, when he is a coward and a weakling - having to sacrifice decades of his life just to be useful. Yamato being the daughter of Kaido, wanting to be like Oden but simultaneously not wanting to be the Shogun because that's what her father, Oden's murderer, wants for her. No wonder she got along with Ace, a guy who was executed for being Roger's son - executed for the crime of existing. And Luffy inherited that from him, having to shoulder the burden of an entire country simply because Ace could never return to fulfill his promise. Robin, the Ohara demon, having to come to terms with her past and embrace the image of a demon that people place on her. Was this some asspull, too, just because we didn't watch her train Demonio with the Revs for 10 chapters?


And now Sanji. A guy who hates his family lineage, who doesn't want to be associated with Judge. But in order to save others he is forced to use his raid suit - his father's creation. At every possible turn people refer to him as Stealth Black, one of the Germa, son of Judge. It happened in this exact chapter, where he's even fighting a former colleague of his father's. No matter how much he runs away from it, he benefits from being a Vinsmoke. And now he's truly becoming a monster like his siblings, all because of something completely out of his control.

The whole point of this is that you can't run away from who you are. You can't escape your fate. You have to embrace it and turn it into something positive, make it your own. It's not about some highly intricate kung fu powerup that Sanji spent 2 years learning with the Okama to master. It's about destiny. This was already laid out in plain English right at the beginning of the story, remember?

:cheers:
 
#51
The exoskeleton really wasn't that bad

It was something that was hinted at back in whole cake island. We know that Sanji was supposed to have mutations, but that Sora's drug suppressed it. Learning that these mutations were merely dormant isn't an asspull imo.

What is an asspull is with Luffy, where beating his ass paradoxically makes him stronger. Kaido 1 shots Luffy, Luffy awakens ACoC, then Kaido 1 shots him again, and now Luffy can split the sky. Its like Luffy faces no real challenges because there is not a single obstacle he struggles to overcome. There is no point where he doubts his own strength.
 

Adam 🍎

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#53
There was one chance, one chance for Oda to take this series and propel it high heavens with 1 single fight

And that was Katakuri vs Luffy

Katakuri versus Luffy was so one sided it was embarrassing to watch. I DISLIKE luffy a lot, but even i was reading those chapters like - jesus christ Oda we get it

That fight showed just how much OP is bullshit when it comes to powerscale and stakes

No matter what Katakuri did, i repeat - no matter what - Luffy was going to win. Oda deemed it so and it will happen.


I saw FAN FICTIONS of Luffy loosing and Katakuri saving Luffy out of respect that were FAR FUCKING BETTER than the ending we got
 
#54
So I apologize for posting just text with little/no pictures. I wanted to briefly articulate why solving every problem by handing your characters unearned power ups destroys conflict and tension in a story. I’ll bring up a point I made a few weeks back:



At the end of the day, the one thing that any story should get right, is it’s conflict. The ability of a fictional story to get you to suspend your disbelief and not know whether or not the characters you’re rooting for can actually succeed or fail. This is the source of tension and ultimately what makes triumphs feel memorable.

If I can run at 100 miles per hour, and I run a race where in order to win, I only need to run 80 miles per hour, there is not much tension because everyone knows what the outcome will be.

If I can run a race at 100 miles per hour, and I race an opponent who can also run 100 miles per hour…well now we have actual tension, because nobody really knows who is going to win and who is going to lose, or if there’s going to be a tie. The tension comes from the idea that we don’t know what is going to happen.

But if I can run 100 miles per hour, and I’m facing an opponent that can run 200 miles per hour, and half way through the race I suddenly unlock ability that allows me to run at 400 miles per hour in spite of the fact that I’ve been training for years and never discovered this ability before…then ladies and gentlemen, there is no longer any conflict in my story. My win was completely unearned because I was simply handed the ability to win for free, having done nothing myself to earn that win. I was faced with an impossible scenario to begin with, but I still won because the plot just handed me a win for no good reason.

This is not about Sanji, he may be the victim of this discussion as the most recent Ass Pull powerup in One Piece was handed to him this week, but this speaks to a greater trend and problem in Oda’s writing:

There is straight up no tension in One Piece anymore. There is no question of “can Sanji actually beat Queen?” Now the question is “what ability will Oda hand Sanji for free that wins the fight for him?”

Sanji is not the only culprit here. Every mid-arc powerup Zoro has ever unlocked has been an ass pull powerup as well. Every single one. From arbitrarily discovering the unexplained “breath of all things powerup”, to manifesting the completely unexplained Asura powerup from the depths of his ass hole against Kaku, to being handed Oden’s sword completely for free, every big powerup greenboi was handed has come at no personal cost or reward. Descendant of Ryuma amirite?

Luffy is the most heinous offender in the manga but I’ve discussed him at length in the past. The only thing I’ll say here is that it should be as clear as day to everyone, that the “Haki blooms under extreme conditions” bullshit that Oda fed us during the Katakuri fight, is the biggest ass pull line of dialogue in Shonen history, as no other character has ever had a Haki bloom in the middle of battle whereas Luffy has so far had 2.

Sanji unlocking his exoskeleton during the Queen fight is far from the only ass pull powerup that we’ve ever seen in this manga full of ass pull power ups. There is no longer any tension in the OP story when every character will simply be handed the power ups required to win their conflicts by Oda no matter how unearned or nonsensical they may seem.

Discuss your opinions on the state of ass pull power ups in One Piss.

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İf you think about it.

How powerful a single admiral was pre ts
Zoro did push Fujitora back
Now gets Enma and cuts Kaido

Luffy out of nothing beat Katakuri
He will also show a new form and beat Kaido

Sanji now will casually beat Queen

This turns into Naruto Jesus power up
 
#55
Maybe because Zoro trains his ass everyday ?
It's not like Luffy or Sanji who barely train and have PU to save their asses. Whenever Zoro gets a PU it's at the limit of death and need to train with that PU (exception ashura only).
He got CoC against Kaido, but he isn't using it against King since he didn't even understand what happened. And he was half dead.

Luffy at the very least ? lol Zoro trained with Mihawk, someone comparable to kaido or akainu for two years, enough said.
Luffy saw Kaido using adv.coc and suddenly know how to use it and recking kaido in base form lmao!
I dont see your point. Luffy trained with Ray. The first mate of Roger's pirate crew.

Luffy trained 10 years prior to going on his journey. He never needed to train everyday and spent most of his fights outsmarting his enemies to win. Until he got his first PUs, G2 and G3. One increasing his blood flow and other is blowing up his bones lol. After is blowing up his muscles. They all came with massive drawbacks. Every other PU post timeskip either came from the timeskip and training he received. ACoC is just adding the prinicples of Ryou and using CoC energy lol.

Zoro pulled Breath of all things out of his ass
Ashura out of his ass
The fact that Ashura is CoC is an asspull in itself
We didnt see him train for fire fox style, that was an asspull
All of sudden he can block Hakai? Lmao

If we are not seeing how it is developed it is an asspull. Telling me Zoro trains doesnt make any less of the shit he got an asspull. Because in his case when he pulls out shit its convinient for the plot. Way worse than Luffy.

Sanji was never really a trainer, he's a genetically enhanced human so frankly, unless he's planning on gunning for Ryou he isnt gonna need constant training. His siblings all had superhuman strength at the age of nine.
 
#56
The exoskeleton really wasn't that bad

It was something that was hinted at back in whole cake island. We know that Sanji was supposed to have mutations, but that Sora's drug suppressed it. Learning that these mutations were merely dormant isn't an asspull imo.

What is an asspull is with Luffy, where beating his ass paradoxically makes him stronger. Kaido 1 shots Luffy, Luffy awakens ACoC, then Kaido 1 shots him again, and now Luffy can split the sky. Its like Luffy faces no real challenges because there is not a single obstacle he struggles to overcome. There is no point where he doubts his own strength.
So losing over and over, is not struggling? Is he dog walking Kaido somewhere, and I'm just missing the panels?:choppawhat:
 
#58
There's literally no difference between the luffy that just got sent flying off onigashima and the one up there now yet he's out here sky splitting in reality he should get his ass kicked again but he won't
What happened during that time Luffy and Kaido were fighting off panel? You seem to have the insider knowledge of it, so please share with the rest of the class.
 
#60
Zoro saw Kinemon use Foxfire style once, and suddenly knows how to use it. Ironically, the perfect ability one needs when fighting against an opponent from a God Race that specializes in Manipulating fire.

Luffy took the principle of AdCoA, which he trained for, and applied it to CoC.

Zoro literally learned an entire fighting style, by witnessing it once, with zero training at all.
Zoro saw Kinemon using it at Punk Hazard, after that they travelled to dressrosa, dressrosa happened, travel to zou, zou happened, travel to wano and was waiting for WCI to finish and first part of Wano happened during many days. For someone who he is training everyday, you gonna tell me zero training ? loool!

Luffy didn't trained his COC, rayleigh said you can't train your COC, only to control it. it just becomes stronger when you face strong people.



It appeared against kaido, good because Luffy is stronger but spamming it when he never used before even once ? hmm!
It was like "oh i understood, you used coc with your attacks. i can do it too, here my punch with coc" lol!

At least Zoro used his adv.coc unconsciously against Kaido when he reached his limit because he became stronger too, but he isn't spamming and gonna learn how to do it.

Where is Ryou, something that Luffy really learned ? in the dashbin lol.

Just accept one thing : Zoro's strength come from his trainings and when he is knocking the door of death.

But i won't call any PU as an asspull since it's shonen thing happening during the last 40 years in the world of manga.
 
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