Current Events Do Unearned Powerups Destroy Tension In Storytelling?

[Celestial D. Dragon]

He got his ass kicked.

Yeah, after.... Clashing equally with Kaido.

We saw 10 seconds of that, and 5 seconds around this time.

I'm a Luffy fanboy, and even I understand that Luffy is going to need a hell of a lot more than just Base form with AdCoC in order to take Kaido down.

Yall acting like Base Luffy already has this fight in the bag.

Post automatically merged: Oct 8, 2021

Zoro saw Kinemon using it at Punk Hazard, after that they travelled to dressrosa, dressrosa happened, travel to zou, zou happened, travel to wano and was waiting for WCI to finish and first part of Wano happened during many days. For someone who he is training everyday, you gonna tell me zero training ? loool!

Luffy didn't trained his COC, rayleigh said you can't train your COC, only to control it. it just becomes stronger when you face strong people.

It appeared against kaido, good because Luffy is stronger but spamming it when he never used before even once ? hmm!
It was like "oh i understood, you used coc with your attacks. i can do it too, here my punch with coc" lol!

At least Zoro used his adv.coc unconsciously against Kaido when he reached his limit because he became stronger too, but he isn't spamming and gonna learn how to do it.

Where is Ryou, something that Luffy really learned ? in the dashbin lol.

Just accept one thing : Zoro's strength come from his trainings and when he is knocking the door of death.

But i won't call any PU as an asspull since it's shonen thing happening during the last 40 years in the world of manga.

Show me one panel prior to Wano of Zoro not drinking or sleeping in his down time, and actually training.

 

[yorosenpai]

If you want to enjoy One Piece you have to shut down your brain, that simple.

I am following One Piece for maybe 3 main reason and powerscalling isnt in it.

One of the main reason I follow this manga is because sometimes there are very dope moment (just WoW reaction) which are providing very good content for fan such as theory or fan art.

Second reason is what will become Roronoa Zoro when this adventure is over.

Last is yep world building in One Piece, but even in this point Oda is becoming less creative.

In any case about power up, simple rule just dont ask to many question cuz their simple no rational answer .

Between Luffy,Zoro,Sanji the cheapest PU that I can count are mainly for Sanji,Luffy.
Even if I am biased tower Zoro, his PU arent that bad, and they follow a normal progression.
In fact if you think Zoro fought 2 Yonko with movement that he had used pretimeskip. Yeah the fire fox style was 1 new moment but even that was kind of explained during Punk Hazard when Zoro show interested in Kinemon fire style.

 

[Zowo]

luffy is natsu

 

[Indigo]

One Piece power scales have been fucked since the Post-TS imo

I think Oda had an idea of how the End Game of the series would feel like during Pre-TS and Marineford, but then changed it completely once the Post-TS started

Just look at characters like Marco, Jinbei and Mihawk, the way they got used in Marineford, and the shit we've seen some of them do now since then

I've also been hating the progression in the Post-TS, it's all over the place

Luffy is gonna become one of the strongest characters in the world by age 19 with very little training, most of his power comes from unlocking / copying things he saw in his enemies

I wish One Piece had good power scaling and also good fights, with good choreography and strategies, but it just isn't the case

and there's absolute no tension, you are completely right

there's almost 0 chance we're gonna see anything bad done to the MCs

the only tension in the story is to characters related to the MCs, and that's it, and even those stakes are very low

 

[Blackbeard]

So I apologize for posting just text with little/no pictures. I wanted to briefly articulate why solving every problem by handing your characters unearned power ups destroys conflict and tension in a story. I’ll bring up a point I made a few weeks back:



At the end of the day, the one thing that any story should get right, is it’s conflict. The ability of a fictional story to get you to suspend your disbelief and not know whether or not the characters you’re rooting for can actually succeed or fail. This is the source of tension and ultimately what makes triumphs feel memorable.

If I can run at 100 miles per hour, and I run a race where in order to win, I only need to run 80 miles per hour, there is not much tension because everyone knows what the outcome will be.

If I can run a race at 100 miles per hour, and I race an opponent who can also run 100 miles per hour…well now we have actual tension, because nobody really knows who is going to win and who is going to lose, or if there’s going to be a tie. The tension comes from the idea that we don’t know what is going to happen.

But if I can run 100 miles per hour, and I’m facing an opponent that can run 200 miles per hour, and half way through the race I suddenly unlock ability that allows me to run at 400 miles per hour in spite of the fact that I’ve been training for years and never discovered this ability before…then ladies and gentlemen, there is no longer any conflict in my story. My win was completely unearned because I was simply handed the ability to win for free, having done nothing myself to earn that win. I was faced with an impossible scenario to begin with, but I still won because the plot just handed me a win for no good reason.

This is not about Sanji, he may be the victim of this discussion as the most recent Ass Pull powerup in One Piece was handed to him this week, but this speaks to a greater trend and problem in Oda’s writing:

There is straight up no tension in One Piece anymore. There is no question of “can Sanji actually beat Queen?” Now the question is “what ability will Oda hand Sanji for free that wins the fight for him?”

Sanji is not the only culprit here. Every mid-arc powerup Zoro has ever unlocked has been an ass pull powerup as well. Every single one. From arbitrarily discovering the unexplained “breath of all things powerup”, to manifesting the completely unexplained Asura powerup from the depths of his ass hole against Kaku, to being handed Oden’s sword completely for free, every big powerup greenboi was handed has come at no personal cost or reward. Descendant of Ryuma amirite?

Luffy is the most heinous offender in the manga but I’ve discussed him at length in the past. The only thing I’ll say here is that it should be as clear as day to everyone, that the “Haki blooms under extreme conditions” bullshit that Oda fed us during the Katakuri fight, is the biggest ass pull line of dialogue in Shonen history, as no other character has ever had a Haki bloom in the middle of battle whereas Luffy has so far had 2.

Sanji unlocking his exoskeleton during the Queen fight is far from the only ass pull powerup that we’ve ever seen in this manga full of ass pull power ups. There is no longer any tension in the OP story when every character will simply be handed the power ups required to win their conflicts by Oda no matter how unearned or nonsensical they may seem.

Discuss your opinions on the state of ass pull power ups in One Piss.

@Owl Ki @Blackbeard @TheKnightOfTheSea @Light D Lamperouge @TheAncientCenturion @comrade @Sentinel @MarineHQ62 @Seth @HA001 @Shepherd @Cuistot @VersusPhD @Mr. Anderson @Den_Den_Mushi @dizzy2341

"Lmfao? Major is really making it personal now" That was me for a millisecond when i thought this thread was a continuation of the neckbeard one, being about Teach's easy devil fruit powerups lol.

Well, go on anyway. I don't think i could discuss Sanji's development when i didn't even read last chapter...

 

[Sievas]

It's pretty surprising to me how many people read One Piece for the fights, when it's easily the weakest part of the story. And that's because it's not about the fights.

They are often just a vehicle to progress the plot, a battle of wills more than anything else. There's a reason why even characters who aren't combat oriented (like Usopp, Robin, Nami) end up in fights and get their asses kicked. Then suddenly they shout that they believe in their friends/Luffy will become the pirate king, and somehow come out on top by the end.

Spoiler: Usopp

It's to show that they have a greater conviction in their dream, and a more righteous goal than their (typically) sleezebag opponent. It's not about who can punch harder or who put in more time training in the hyperbolic time chamber or conjured the perfect nen beast after maintaining Ryou for 16 hours.

Sanji is one of the few combat oriented Strawhats and - what a shocker - even he's just the ship's cook! After we just got an entire arc centered around Sanji's personal conflict and growth, it absolutely blows my mind that people are still expecting some sort of training arc to show how his Diable Jambe got 5 degrees hotter.

Maybe, follow me for a second, this arc isn't just about some war. It's also about the burden of inherited will. Momo being forced to live up to his father's image, when he is a coward and a weakling - having to sacrifice decades of his life just to be useful. Yamato being the daughter of Kaido, wanting to be like Oden but simultaneously not wanting to be the Shogun because that's what her father, Oden's murderer, wants for her. No wonder she got along with Ace, a guy who was executed for being Roger's son - executed for the crime of existing. And Luffy inherited that from him, having to shoulder the burden of an entire country simply because Ace could never return to fulfill his promise. Robin, the Ohara demon, having to come to terms with her past and embrace the image of a demon that people place on her. Was this some asspull, too, just because we didn't watch her train Demonio with the Revs for 10 chapters?

Spoiler: Robin

And now Sanji. A guy who hates his family lineage, who doesn't want to be associated with Judge. But in order to save others he is forced to use his raid suit - his father's creation. At every possible turn people refer to him as Stealth Black, one of the Germa, son of Judge. It happened in this exact chapter, where he's even fighting a former colleague of his father's. No matter how much he runs away from it, he benefits from being a Vinsmoke. And now he's truly becoming a monster like his siblings, all because of something completely out of his control.

Spoiler: Sanji

The whole point of this is that you can't run away from who you are. You can't escape your fate. You have to embrace it and turn it into something positive, make it your own. It's not about some highly intricate kung fu powerup that Sanji spent 2 years learning with the Okama to master. It's about destiny. This was already laid out in plain English right at the beginning of the story, remember?

Spoiler: Will

Thank you for explaining so well. I agree completely.

Also a view from my side on the topic in general:

Fights just don't mean pure physical strength, or who's the most creative, lots or Shounen manga are about the main character's will to achieve what they want to achieve. And as long as it's not necessary, they will not fail. I never thought that the end of an arc would be a loss for the main characters. Why would I? Why would I want to see them lose? You root for someone, you want to experience their win.

And then I see Luffy in as good as every fight since Grand Line, losing. It's a shock. It comes unprepared. You start to feel the need to overcome the problem. Luffy lost to Crocodile twice. He failed against Rob Lucci and got sent flying. Even against Moria or Caesar Clown, Doflamingo and Katakuri. Kaido made him lose two times as well.

But they stand up. They think up something new. They have ideas. And use them.

And that's why I actually like One Piece fights a lot. It is not necessarily how they got their skills but how they showcase them. Luffy figuring out Crocodiles weakness. Luffy making up Gear 2 and 3 for Lucci. Luffy learning Future Sight during the fight with Katakuri. And now him getting the hang of CoC against Kaido.

The same goes for Zoro. Up until Mihawk he never had much trouble. He thought himself the greatest. And afterwards he notices how small he really was. In Wiskey Peak he figured out his new swords. In Alabasta he used the Breath of all things. It might seem sudden but it's nothing uncommon in the shounen genre. I actually loved that flashback and scene. In Skypeia he figured out his flying slashes and he trained to keep them in the Blue Sea where the air was different. Etc etc.

You can do the same for the other characters. Why the need to show their training? What is wrong about a flashback for once to understand? I never felt there was no tension.

And maybe for some the lack of tension comes from the fact you all have been reading for so long that the hype about the story itself has weakened from your side. You don't feel excited about something new, it becomes normal. I feel the same too. But I simply agreed to enjoy what I get presented every week. Because I want to know how it plays out.

 

[Aknolagon]

I dont see your point. Luffy trained with Ray. The first mate of Roger's pirate crew.

Luffy trained 10 years prior to going on his journey. He never needed to train everyday and spent most of his fights outsmarting his enemies to win. Until he got his first PUs, G2 and G3. One increasing his blood flow and other is blowing up his bones lol. After is blowing up his muscles. They all came with massive drawbacks. Every other PU post timeskip either came from the timeskip and training he received. ACoC is just adding the prinicples of Ryou and using CoC energy lol.

Zoro pulled Breath of all things out of his ass
Ashura out of his ass
The fact that Ashura is CoC is an asspull in itself
We didnt see him train for fire fox style, that was an asspull
All of sudden he can block Hakai? Lmao

If we are not seeing how it is developed it is an asspull. Telling me Zoro trains doesnt make any less of the shit he got an asspull. Because in his case when he pulls out shit its convinient for the plot. Way worse than Luffy.

Sanji was never really a trainer, he's a genetically enhanced human so frankly, unless he's planning on gunning for Ryou he isnt gonna need constant training. His siblings all had superhuman strength at the age of nine.

Yeah first mate of Pirate King but he is not the WSS and Rayleigh left Luffy 6 months before when Zoro trained with Mihawk during two whole years. And current Mihawk is stronger than old Rayleigh so yes Zoro got a stronger teacher than Luffy, that's why he was walking on everyone before rooftop.

BOAT ? yeah came when Zoro was dying against Mr.1, he learned that after knocking the door of death. After that ? that BOAT disappeared. And multiple confirmed swordsmen can cut steel too, so is that a crazy PU ? But he learned that a the gate of death.

Ashura is not COC until it's confirmed. But i agree it came from no where like Sanji's DJ (because he can turn himself to high speed, right ?)

We didn't see Zoro training for the firefox style, but we saw him being interested and for someone like Zoro who actually trains everyday, is it that shocking ? Especially when it happened one or two month ago (in one piece world).

All of sudden he can block hakai ? when actually Zoro showed he can't block something like hakai ? his main fort is his raw strength that comes from his trainings. Have we ever saw post-skip Zoro being overpowered by an attack before Hakai ? Fujitora tried his gravity, Zoro countered it so he always had enough strength to block or counter. And Zoro just blocked for a few moment since Hakai exploded.

Luffy is knocked out multiples times and come back with full health, that's ok for you. Or Sanji who put the RS that triggered his germa's power and completely restaured his leg and body, it's ok lol.

The only character Oda is handling correctly is Zoro since his PU always have drawback or he needs time, death fights to learn it. Even for the elixir, Oda could have just said "here an healing potion" but no he also added x 2 damages at the end + King's damages now. I mean yeah at least it's exciting and not dumb.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

"Lmfao? Major is really making it personal now" That was me for a millisecond when i thought this thread was a continuation of the neckbeard one, being about Teach's easy devil fruit powerups lol.

Well, go on anyway. I don't think i could discuss Sanji's development when i didn't even read last chapter...

Nah my man lol. You know I won’t come at you personally. Only Yonko fans are the ones with whom I get personal. Lel

 

[The Hidden Island]

Thank you for explaining so well. I agree completely.

Also a view from my side on the topic in general:

Fights just don't mean pure physical strength, or who's the most creative, lots or Shounen manga are about the main character's will to achieve what they want to achieve. And as long as it's not necessary, they will not fail. I never thought that the end of an arc would be a loss for the main characters. Why would I? Why would I want to see them lose? You root for someone, you want to experience their win...

Thanks man, glad to hear others share my sentiment on this. Excellent post, btw!

 

[Blackbeard]

Nah my man lol. You know I won’t come at you personally. Only Yonko fans are the ones with whom I get personal. Lel

Yoncuck fans love the taste of Crydo and Meme's private body parts, but boy do they get really upset about my non-toxic Teach wank. Is it because Kaido and Meme are stuck with Admirals while Teach is superior thanks to Yami?

Is the fact that prime Teach can solo 3+ Admirals while the rest of the Yoncucks need Ancient Weapons to do it really unbearable?

Excuse my off thread ranting.

 

[serkeara]

I agree with you. There is no negative consequence for SHs post-TS. Luffy did tons of reckless behaviors. he not only got no consequence, but also always turn situation in flavor (prison training camp, for example). This completely ruins the tension for the sake of emphasizing on being a chosen one. How can a character grow when he doesn't need to learn from his mistake?

At the same time, we can see characters like Kids, Aces, and Killer did mistake and got tortured and lost precious things.

That's why the raid has no tension at all in view of reader. It's just like SHs walking in the park and can do whatever with no consequences.

 

[HA001]

Haki bloom is a thing. Zoro multiple times luffy coby have all done so

 

[Finalbeta]

They are pretty much necessary in order for the story to flow because the SHs need to become too powerful in too little time so at least some asspulls look better than asspull power creeps that are even more unexplainable.

 

[Master OF Haki]

At this point, there is no point in reading a story where the possibility of failure is just completely thrown out of the window. The tension in fiction comes from the idea that the characters you’re rooting for can actually fail. But with Pirate Christ…failure is no longer an option. He’s going to win in the end, there is no doubt. Destiny has deemed it so. And because there is no doubt…there is no real tension. Without tension, there is no conflict, and without conflict, there’s no story. Just a lifeless series of drawings and words presented in a sequential order.

You're preaching my boy.

Outside of few points you're spot on.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

@Celestial D. Dragon i wanted to respond to your initial comments about how to not execute Powerups poorly and how to actually do them well. I will use Kingdom as an example of how to do this excellently. I’ll spoiler tag this for anyone who does not want to be spoiled for a major Kingdom Arc.

Spoiler

So, in the most recent Kingdom Arc, Shin gets not one, not two, but three big Powerups. Three. All three of these Powerups were necessary to overcome the odds that he faced in that arc, and none of these Powerups felt contrived or like ass pulls. These 3 Powerups in their own ways elevated Shin to “Great General level” in the same way that Luffy’s Powerups are currently elevating him to “Yonko level”.

The first powerup was that Shin began wielding a weapon that he has explicitly been training for years to be able to wield. Pretty self-explanatory why this is not an ass pull powerup lol.

The second was that Shin’s unit “awakened” evolving to a level of strength that only the strongest armies in history have attained. The reason that they were able to awaken was due to the amount of years that this army has fought together, and the amount of trials and hardships that they overcame at each other’s sides, and the amount of good times they’ve had together over the years as well. This powerup was 10 years in the making, all 10 of those years we spent alongside the unit watching their triumphs and failures together, with the Awakening itself coming at a point in time where it looked like the Unit itself was facing certain destruction, Shin was able to rally his men with a very emotional speech recounting all of their times together, which caused the unit to explode with emotion and reach a new realm of power. Again, this powerup is definitely not an ass pull because Hara has been building up to this moment for the past 10 years of in-manga time, this powerup serving as a culmination of all the struggles the unit has endured together.

The third powerup that Shin unlocked was “Weight”. This is kinda like the emotional strength Zoro gained from Kuina but less Shonen. Basically Shin can now draw strength from all the comrades that he’s lost over the years in the manga. “His strength is now fueled by all of their dreams too,” etc…you get it. But the point is that all of Shin’s comrades who we as the reader have spent emotional moments with, have seen die, have experienced time with, etc..Shin now carries their dreams forward with him, and the arc was written in such a way that Shin unlocking this now feels perfectly appropriate and planned for, which is specific as I can be while being brief.

These three Powerups feel like the natural progression of the narrative and Shin’s character and feel like Hara has intentionally built up to them for over 10 years in manga and real time.

EDIT: and I will edit this post simply to confirm that all 3 of these Powerups that Shin attains during the mid chapter 500s, late chapter 500s, and early chapter 600s respectively, were shown as early as chapter 60 by Great General level characters, further showing how far in advance Hara planned Shin’s detailed character progression into top-tier power.

Now let’s look at the three ass-tactic Powerups Luffy unlocked in Wano and why their introductions feel sudden and just makes Luffy feel like a lazy privileged idiot.

1. Luffy’s sudden muscle increase from lifting weights in Udon: Luffy gaining 40 pounds of muscle after one week of training just makes Luffy seem lazy as fuck given that Zoro keeps heavy weights on the Sunny. Luffy could’ve just spent a week lifting Zoro’s weights and achieved the same result, but instead Luffy spent all his free time on the Sunny blowing loads into the ocean or whatever Luffy even does between islands. So Luffy’s first Wano powerup just makes him feel lazy and like he only studies after he shows up for the test and fails.

2. Emission Haki-the same as point 1, Luffy already knew what this shit was from Rayleigh but didn’t unlock it until now simply because Luffy is a lazy bum who never trains until after he’s already been placed into a situation for which he was woefully unprepared. And literally it took him what? 3 days of training? The trip from WCI to Wano was a week long, just saying lmfao.

3. AdCoC-This one is by far the dumbest because the second Luffy learned what this shit was, he was matching Kaido in an advanced conqueror’s Haki technique with absolutely no explanation whatsoever. Literally from the depths of Oda’s ass cheeks is where this powerup came from.

You may argue Luffy’s conqueror’s haki has been growing between arcs, but Luffy’s growing conqueror’s Haki is something that’s never even been suggested in any way by the narrative. At best this is just an attempt to make Luffy’s AdCoC power look like it’s been foreshadowed since FMI, when it absolutely has not, and there’s never been any indication in the manga of Luffy becoming stronger with his conqueror’s Haki since the timeskip.

This is the difference between giant Powerups that are executed with the precision and planning of a master (Kingdom), and Powerups that look like the writer accidentally shat his pants and is desperately trying to get all of the shit off of his clothes before anybody smells it (One Piece).

Hope this helps.

 

[Master OF Haki]

2. Emission Haki-the same as point 1, Luffy already knew what this shit was from Rayleigh but didn’t unlock it until now simply because Luffy is a lazy bum who never trains until after he’s already been placed into a situation for which he was woefully unprepared. And literally it took him what? 3 days of training? The trip from

Oda could have actually fixed this pretty easily if he allowed the strowhats to have "sparring matches" against each other, which would in turn allow them to push themselves to the limits and awaken stronger haki before the fight, it would also make them look competent. But Oda would never do that because in that case it would force Oda to show the power difference between the crew members, which he can't allow.

 

[draganax]

unearned power ups are bad under any circumstances, but it doesn't come close to when characters hold back their strength for no reason, there's nothing i hate more than the stalling.

let's take enies loby for example:
-luffy vs luccy: luffy was using his strongest form from the beginning which made the fight extremely enjoyable.
-zoro vs kaku / sanji vs jabura: zoro and sanji had enough strength to neg diff their opponents, yet they stayed in weaker forms for a long time and suffered a lot of unnecessary damage as a result, why did they need an emotional trigger in order to use their full strength? it doesn't make any sense to me.

it happened to luffy vs doflamingo, when luffy was stalled for 20 minutes by doflamingo's off-white awakening, until luffy realized the time is running out, then he proceeded to break through off-white and leo bazuka'ed doflamingo in an instant.

and the same is happening with zoro vs king, it's easy to predict what's gonna happen next: zoro won't use asura or his high tier attacks for some unknown reason => suffers a lot of damage in the process => receives an emotional/situational trigger => uses high tier attacks => one-shots/low diffs king.

sanji's case is not that bad though, even if he had used the raid suit, it wasn't effective against page 1 and it won't be effective against queen.

 

[faker]

Yes, Zoro got Enma for nothing, which is very unreasonable

 

[Peroroncino]

Yes, Zoro got Enma for nothing, which is very unreasonable

zoro got enma by trading it for the only black blade he had

 

[faker]

zoro got enma by trading it for the only black blade he had

The knife belonged to Ryuma, and Zoro defeated Ryuma, a Brook shadow. Zoro is not qualified for the knife.
By the way, Zoro's three weapons are unearned. Reread Op