And I say this as one of the bigger Ouhon fans on this site. Ouhon did not have the experience to be promoted to General immediately. 5,000 Man Commander was a necessity for him to develop that. Anyway,
Not really.
It is a two ways things.
Ouhon didn't deserve a general promotion because his feat are not worthy of a general : the earl shi he defeated wasn't his prime self, and he didnt do it alone.
If a 1K commander is able to slay Rei Ou 1 vs 1 army vs army alone then yes he is worthy of a general promotion.
So Tou was right. First Ouhon didn't have enough experience and two his feats didn't show he worth more than 5K commander yet.
Houken was not a Great General level threat Rayan. Houken was not even a true General, he was placed into the roll by Riboku without having any ability to lead men or command using strategy and tactics
he was still a great heaven. Whatever reasons Riboku had, he still appointed him as one of the three main military commander of the whole Zhao force.
Gaimou is a fire Dragon, Moubu in the beginning was a bull too.
Riboku could have used Houken as a glorified Ranbihaku, a wild beast by his side. Yet he decided to put Houken as a gret Heaven.
I agree that Houken has no leadership capabilities but he is not stupid at all. During Bayou he managed to trap and manipulate Moubu.
Because as a General, Houken is nothing. It was as a General that Shin believed Riboku defeated Ouki, by manipulating the battlefield in a way that resulted in Ouki’s death, and that’s always what Shin has wanted, to be a Great General of the Heavens, not just the strongest guy to wield a Glaive. This stems from Shin’s desire to prove that even though he and Hyou were born slaves, that they could still become great heroes and rise to the top of the societies that they were born into the bottom of. Defeating Houken in a 1v1 is not as important to Shin as truly surpassing the strongest General of his era and the one ultimately responsible for Ouki’s and Duke Hyou’s death.
Yeah Shin goal never was surpassing Houken. But thinking Houken was nothing in Shin's mind is not completly right too.
Shin wasn't completly cold toward Houken
And he clearly remembered the man as the one who killed both of his mentors
You have placed way too much importance on who Houken is, where the Kingdom manga itself has never shown Houken to be this ultimate figure that you saw him as. Riboku yes, Houken no.
Houken wasn't some ultimate figure but he was indeed a corner stone in Shin path.
The Kingdom manga also put some good importance in Houken name not just me. Bayou with Kyoukai first dance, then Ouki death, then Coalition war, then Duke death, then duel with Shin, then Shukai plaines, put down Kyoukai and then fight Shin.
I don't see many reccuring antaginists like him other than Riboku. And he indeed was impactful.
Shukai Plains was not some battle. This marked the point where Qin came the closest it ever came to annihilating a major state. This was Qin “putting the blade to Zhao’s throat” as it were. And I’ll elaborate now on what I said above, there was no better place for Houken to die.
If Houken would’ve died alongside Kochou, you would’ve been saying the same thing you are now, if not worse since Riboku isn’t even present and Houken’s story directly coincides with Riboku’s. If Houken would’ve died alongside both Riboku and Shibashou, it would’ve felt like Hara pulled Zhao’s defeat out of his ass hole and the victory would’ve been unearned. The Qin characters would’ve developed major “we’re going to win no matter what” syndrome. It would’ve been like if Luffy, Law, and Kidd all defeated Shanks, Big Mom, Kaido, and EOS Blackbeard within minutes of each other. It would’ve just been so preposterous that the stakes for the future of Kingdom would’ve been significantly lowered as no other threats would’ve felt legitimate at that point.
So when you look at the structure of Zhao’s fall in the future, ending one of the biggest battles in Qin history with Houken’s death is exactly how things should’ve ended. It ended the Gyou campaign with a bang, and there was nowhere else in the story where Houken’s death would’ve fit in. On top of that, there was no better way to end the Gyou campaign itself than with the death of a Zhao Great General, and Houken was frankly the only one who could’ve died there.
Here we will disagree.
Houken could have been in the last fight against Riboku.
Here Kochou is gonna lose against the Qin armies. But we all know that Riboku is not finished yet and will come back with his team and will be the last step of Zhao real defeat.
Riboku is already the "strongest" right now so beating him is already sky high as an accomplishment. Yet after him Kou En and his super state will still be a real threat.
Chu is a super state with dozen of generals and guys like Kou En
SHK Karin etc etc. I think Shin would find real opponents there. Beating Houken just before wouldn't diminish things.
And frankly i don't think Kingdom will go far from 1000 chaps. So all in all Riboku and Zhao were and will forever be Kingdom biggest and most important antagonists.
That’s the whole point if this “Weight of a Great General” crap lol. I know this website likes to try and be like “well Ouki was actually superior to Houken”, but he was not. He almost defeated Houken using weight in spite of the fact that he was weaker than Houken as a warrior in every category. This is Hara hammering that point home for the doubters. The strongest warrior in China is no match for those who have Weight, even when those who have Weight are much weaker than him (Shin). That’s what this whole plot line was supposed to be lol.
Oh yeah I agree with this : in pure martial might Houken was better : he was harder, faster, stronger etc.
Ouki vs Houken : Houken wins. Ouki + weight vs Houken : Ouki wins. But here we are talking about Ouki : a monster among monster fighting wise. I don't think there is 5 fighters better than Ouki in the verse. Ouki is a monster GG with decades fo experience and weight and fighting skills.
Duke Hyou had weight too and lost.
And from what we know about weight : it cames from the one you loved, the one you lost but also the most people lives you have upon your shoulders the more you have weight.
Shin was still too green, still didn't have enough people under him, and still didn't have enough experience to even think he has as much weight as Ouki or even Duke Hyou.
Shin and Houken distance was too far even with weight to be able to close the gap, and Shin weight was clearly exaggerated during the fight.
Why did you decide that Houken needed to have an epiphany and change his ways? What part of his story made you think that Houken was designed to give up his whole life philosophy? I don’t understand. You didn’t read Dressrosa and be like “well Doflamingo is disappointing because he should’ve realized that being a puppetmaster was wrong in the end.” “Actually Crocodike’s defeat sucked because he could’ve realized how mean he was being to Alabasta.” Like, Houken stands for what he stands for, and Shin defeats him. No villain’s defeat is cheapened by them not changing their whole life philosophy in the end.
Its not really the same thing.
here Luffy beat down his opponents in one fight and yet he beat down their philosophy.
But here the whole point with Houken is to show him hiw way of fighting cannot allow him to be the strongest. There were numerous fights over almost a decade.
Houken was beaten first time by Ouki, then a second time, then beat Hyou but still didn't understand, then fought Shin, then later after fought Kyoukai and Shin.
and we had like 0 progression : just Houken keeping his path again and again while he was proven wrong each time.
Houken seemed to almost find the truth like 2 seconds before he died. Its a shame he wasn't allowed to explore this path.
Shin and him should have glorious duel.
And about Croco and Doffy or even Moria : you clealry see that their defeats changed them. Croco put his ass in gear again and went in the NW, Moria left his island, and Doffy will likely return too. Defeat can change you.
If Houken was a one time villain i would understand but here Houken had a long long path and ending it that way is not satisfying.
Like I explained above, Shukai was the only place where Houken’s death fit in. When the only time you ever kill your villains is when you have your main character stats “okay it’s time to beat Houken now” a hundred chapters before it actually happens (Oda), then your world starts to feel like it’s full of stagnant characters just sitting around waiting for the MC to decide that it’s time to come and defeat them
I think you were clearly not satisfied by Kata vs Luffy, where Luffy needed 100 plot and lucky shot to beat him. Same with Kaido.
One piece would be way better if either the MC was better prepared or if the MC a little bit stronger when fighting his opponents.
Obviously underdog fights can be good and are good for shonen. But when the gap is too far things begin to become a mess.
Houken did not just randomly show up and die from a narrative sense, Hara foreshadowed his arrival well in advance, and just because Shin didn’t shout about how he would defeat Houken at the start of Shukai Plains doesn’t mean his presence in the end wasn’t set up well in advance by Hara.
Houken showing up at the end is not really my problem. Shin killing him, and Houken dying were mine.
Shin killed him too early and Houken died too early.
