Spoiler General Kingdom Spoiler

Is Bleach Better than Kingdom?


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Kingdom fans know how I felt about the Houken fight, I think he should have been nerfed more instead of killing Shin (or don't nerf Shin as much from all thr battles he had before Houken), we have that whole revival bs from Kyokai and that shitty sidequest.
Left me disappointed, Kingdom has been consistently good that it surprised me we had that shit.
 

RayanOO

Lazy is the way
Not really sure I understand what you’re saying here. Should Shin have been promoted to General after he skated Fuuki at Bayou? Of course not, Shin was young and inexperienced. Should Ouhon have been promoted to Great General when he slayed Shi Ei? No, he had yet to prove he could lead even 10,000 men, let alone 100,000. Your rank in the military is determined by your experience and victories, not just the commander you happened to slay, and Houken barely counts as a commander given that he has no ability to lead armies.
I think we didn't understand each other here. Beating someone didn't make you a GG. Shin killed Rei Ou yet wasn't promoted as General or such. Even Tou said back then that Ouhon shouldn't be promoted as a general after slaying Earl Shi because he lacked experience, and being a 5K commander was already quite different from what he knew.

But here we are talking about Shin story and Houken.

What is Houken track record : Ouki and Duke Hyou : two full fledge GG, and not the worse of the bunch.

Houken is martial pinnacle who fought and killed two Shin role model and two super martial beast.

But whil fighting them Ouki and Duke used their weight, their weight as GG, their whole experience etc. To fight someone like Houken you must weight a lot and for me being "simply" a general is not enough.

Also lets not act as if Shin really killed Rei Ou alone, or if Ouhon victory against Earl Shi was alone too. Rei Ou is not a fighter, and Earl Shi a suicidal maniac. If OuHon had fought and beaten solo Earl Shi at his prime and earl shi army then yes he should have been promoted asap as a general. This did not happen.

Here we are talking about fighting all along and solo a GG level threat and winning. Because we can like it or not Houken was a GG and a 3 Great Heaven of Zhao.

When Moubu beat Kanmei (an other mighty beast) : he was recognized by all China as the strongest and as the best. And was promoted to Qin first GG.

That is something that should have happened for Shin. Beating Houken should have been a bigger affair, a bigger deal in the world of Kingdom. Not just some end of the battle fight.

Yes, Houken was a top 3 military figure in Zhao at Shukai Plains. Is Shin’s feat of slaying Houken not incredible because Houken appeared when he was least expected? That’s always what Houken has done throughout the entire manga so I don’t understand why him appearing from nowhere isn’t consistent with who he’s been up until now lol.
Its not the fact that Houken appeared at the end, its the whole fight that bother me. And the lack of stakes for that fight.

it is random because Houken dying here in the middle of the manga in a fight that wasn't that great or that important.

Houken is really not that important of a figure for Zhao in the grand scheme of things.
We dn't really care of the grand sheme of thing : we are following Shin, his life and adventure. And for Shin Houken was important, since the beginning of the show.

It’s a controversial fight but I loved every minute of it lol. Leave it to Hara to leave me satisfied with a Shonen style infinite stamina slugfest that I otherwise would’ve disliked in any other story lol.
I already disliked that type of fight is traditional shonen and i disliked that type of fight even more in a "more realistic" shonen like Kingdom.

Who wants to see that ?

I don't mind SHin going Plus Ultra to beat Houken or his foes but here he was so inferior and Hara went completly out of his way to make him win.

Even against a nerfed Houken he shouldn't have won.

And for a fight that important did you really want Houken to be nerfed in the first place ?

Panel like these are an insult :





I was all for Shin giving hell to Houken beause yeah Shin is strong and with weight he should be even stronger. But killing him ? no.

Shin wasn't ready to kill someone like Houken. Not yet. When someone like Duke Hyou with all his experience and GG factor and weight was destroyed by Houken. When Ouki one of the strongest fighter ever, with GG factor through the roof and Kyou death to help him had all the difficulties of the world to kill Houken.

And Shin being unconscious and still fighting at the end of the fight was a bit bullshit too.

When Houken asked Shin why he managed to rise back Shin answer was that : a GG of the heaven ? really ? Yep but no. Not yet.



Even when Shin was awakening his mega weight and had dead people giving him strength he was still no match for Houken :




Do i want to see this for their final match up ? No.



This fight could have been a great turning point to show Houken the truth. And to show that he needs to change. I would have been "satisfy" with some kind of "stalemate" which forced Houken to retreat.

Yeah Houken started to questioned himself but it was too quick and he died just after that. Seeing how he would fin dthe answer and where this new path would lead him would have been way better.





He just died 2 pages later.

Okay he was in a mental breakdown, but having a mental breakdown and dying just after is NOT at all the end that someone like Houken should have. Not a pay off of 500 chapters.

Yes definitely. Either for an other fight or removing that fight and making they fight later down the road.

Houken is not a rival full stop. Claiming Houken is a rival to Shin is like claiming Akainu is a rival to Luffy. Lol.

Houken is not a rival to Shin, he is an antithesis to his character and beliefs.
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Imagine if Akainu had killed Shanks at the end of Alabasta. But also killed Ace in the end of Marineford.

And at the end of Wano or Dressrosa, near the end of the fight, Akainu comes and Luffy kills him.

Houken demise felt that way. Way too soon, rushed, and out of place. It didn't feel like a proper conclusion.

Houken was indeed important for Shin as a foe. he killed both his mentors, threatened the life of his friends numerous times etc.

And during Ouki vs Houken when Ouki said that they can't see each other eye to eye even in the end : didn't that pain you that 500 chapters later for their final showdown Shin and Houken didn't manage to fight each other eye to eye ? even for a brief moment ?

I think its a shame.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
But here we are talking about Shin story and Houken.
And see I think this is where I disagree, because there was nowhere else in Kingdom where Houken’s death would’ve fit in. You can go back to the individual chapter threads of Shin slaying Houken, and you’ll find me calling it from the exact moment that Houken showed up, that Shin was killing him at Shukai Plains. There literally was no other appropriate place or time for Houken to die and I called it immediately.

If you wanted or expected Houken to die at the end of some other great battle, yeah no way in hell that was happening. Not when we have all of these other huge military figures for Zhao who are going to also have to fall, such as Ko Chou, Shibashou and ultimately Riboku who is far more important to Shin’s story than Houken is.

You said this here:

Houken is martial pinnacle who fought and killed two Shin role model and two super martial beast.
See the thing about Houken is that Shin never really blamed Houken for Ouki’s death, because Houken was always portrayed as someone who was ultimately inferior to Ouki as a General (more on that later) and would not have defeated him in a straight up battle.

Shin always blamed Riboku for defeating Ouki. It was Riboku who Shin wanted to defeat, and it was Riboku who Shin credited with surpassing Ouki, and it was Riboku who Shin said he would one day defeat to become a Great General. Shin literally had a conversation with Riboku where he said this directly to his face because without Riboku, Houken would’ve never pulled off the things he did pull off. Houken was just a tool used by Riboku to ultimately kill both of Shin’s roll models.

The thing about Houken is that Shin never respected him or viewed him as the one responsible for slaying Ouki or the Duke. Shin openly mocked Houken when he faced Renpa, he stated that Houken’s blows felt like “tiny pebbles” in comparison to Renpa’s. This is Shin openly mocking the man who you view as being responsible for slaying Ouki. Shin has never had any respect for Houken or viewed him as anything more than some batshit insane martial beast being manipulated by Shin’s true antithesis, which is Riboku. Shin seems to have huge respect for Riboku stating “there’s no way the man who defeated Ouki would’ve been some pencil pusher” when Riboku owned him in a duel. You see the difference? Shin respects Riboku but does not respect Houken and really never has.

You have placed way too much importance on who Houken is, where the Kingdom manga itself has never shown Houken to be this ultimate figure that you saw him as. Riboku yes, Houken no.

Back to Houken in a minute:

If OuHon had fought and beaten solo Earl Shi at his prime and earl shi army then yes he should have been promoted asap as a general.
No. You said it yourself:

Even Tou said back then that Ouhon shouldn't be promoted as a general after slaying Earl Shi because he lacked experience, and being a 5K commander was already quite different from what he knew.
And I say this as one of the bigger Ouhon fans on this site. Ouhon did not have the experience to be promoted to General immediately. 5,000 Man Commander was a necessity for him to develop that. Anyway,

Here we are talking about fighting all along and solo a GG level threat and winning. Because we can like it or not Houken was a GG and a 3 Great Heaven of Zhao.
Houken was not a Great General level threat Rayan. Houken was not even a true General, he was placed into the roll by Riboku without having any ability to lead men or command using strategy and tactics. This is probably why Shin never saw Houken as someone he needed to surpass. Because as a General, Houken is nothing. It was as a General that Shin believed Riboku defeated Ouki, by manipulating the battlefield in a way that resulted in Ouki’s death, and that’s always what Shin has wanted, to be a Great General of the Heavens, not just the strongest guy to wield a Glaive. This stems from Shin’s desire to prove that even though he and Hyou were born slaves, that they could still become great heroes and rise to the top of the societies that they were born into the bottom of. Defeating Houken in a 1v1 is not as important to Shin as truly surpassing the strongest General of his era and the one ultimately responsible for Ouki’s and Duke Hyou’s death.

When Moubu beat Kanmei (an other mighty beast) : he was recognized by all China as the strongest and as the best. And was promoted to Qin first GG.
Moubu was already a veteran General by that point. He was fully capable of leading large armies successfully and he proved that definitively at Kankoku pass.

That is something that should have happened for Shin. Beating Houken should have been a bigger affair, a bigger deal in the world of Kingdom. Not just some end of the battle fight.
Shukai Plains was not some battle. This marked the point where Qin came the closest it ever came to annihilating a major state. This was Qin “putting the blade to Zhao’s throat” as it were. And I’ll elaborate now on what I said above, there was no better place for Houken to die.

If Houken would’ve died alongside Kochou, you would’ve been saying the same thing you are now, if not worse since Riboku isn’t even present and Houken’s story directly coincides with Riboku’s. If Houken would’ve died alongside both Riboku and Shibashou, it would’ve felt like Hara pulled Zhao’s defeat out of his ass hole and the victory would’ve been unearned. The Qin characters would’ve developed major “we’re going to win no matter what” syndrome. It would’ve been like if Luffy, Law, and Kidd all defeated Shanks, Big Mom, Kaido, and EOS Blackbeard within minutes of each other. It would’ve just been so preposterous that the stakes for the future of Kingdom would’ve been significantly lowered as no other threats would’ve felt legitimate at that point.

So when you look at the structure of Zhao’s fall in the future, ending one of the biggest battles in Qin history with Houken’s death is exactly how things should’ve ended. It ended the Gyou campaign with a bang, and there was nowhere else in the story where Houken’s death would’ve fit in. On top of that, there was no better way to end the Gyou campaign itself than with the death of a Zhao Great General, and Houken was frankly the only one who could’ve died there.

I don't mind SHin going Plus Ultra to beat Houken or his foes but here he was so inferior and Hara went completly out of his way to make him win.
That’s the whole point if this “Weight of a Great General” crap lol. I know this website likes to try and be like “well Ouki was actually superior to Houken”, but he was not. He almost defeated Houken using weight in spite of the fact that he was weaker than Houken as a warrior in every category. This is Hara hammering that point home for the doubters. The strongest warrior in China is no match for those who have Weight, even when those who have Weight are much weaker than him (Shin). That’s what this whole plot line was supposed to be lol.

This fight could have been a great turning point to show Houken the truth. And to show that he needs to change. I would have been "satisfy" with some kind of "stalemate" which forced Houken to retreat.
Why did you decide that Houken needed to have an epiphany and change his ways? What part of his story made you think that Houken was designed to give up his whole life philosophy? I don’t understand. You didn’t read Dressrosa and be like “well Doflamingo is disappointing because he should’ve realized that being a puppetmaster was wrong in the end.” “Actually Crocodile’s defeat sucked because he could’ve realized how mean he was being to Alabasta.” Like, Houken stands for what he stands for, and Shin defeats him. No villain’s defeat is cheapened by them not changing their whole life philosophy in the end.

Imagine if Akainu had killed Shanks at the end of Alabasta. But also killed Ace in the end of Marineford.

And at the end of Wano or Dressrosa, near the end of the fight, Akainu comes and Luffy kills him.

Houken demise felt that way. Way too soon, rushed, and out of place. It didn't feel like a proper conclusion.
Like I explained above, Shukai was the only place where Houken’s death fit in. When the only time you ever kill your villains is when you have your main character stats “okay it’s time to beat Houken now” a hundred chapters before it actually happens (Oda), then your world starts to feel like it’s full of stagnant characters just sitting around waiting for the MC to decide that it’s time to come and defeat them. One Piece suffers in this way as none of its characters have agency or a place in the world, they’re simply sitting around and waiting for Luffy to come for them. Hara defied this tendency by having Houken be the one to decide that it was time to slay Shin, and he warned you about this from the minute Shin skated Gaku Ei, that Shin and Houken were going to have a major confrontation at Shukai Plains. And he brought up Houken whether literally (killing Kozen) or verbally (Riboku’s vassals suggest summoning Houken, Riboku says he can’t) multiple times during Shukai Plains to keep him at the front of the reader’s mind. Houken did not just randomly show up and die from a narrative sense, Hara foreshadowed his arrival well in advance, and just because Shin didn’t shout about how he would defeat Houken at the start of Shukai Plains doesn’t mean his presence in the end wasn’t set up well in advance by Hara.
 
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RayanOO

Lazy is the way
And I say this as one of the bigger Ouhon fans on this site. Ouhon did not have the experience to be promoted to General immediately. 5,000 Man Commander was a necessity for him to develop that. Anyway,
Not really.

It is a two ways things.

Ouhon didn't deserve a general promotion because his feat are not worthy of a general : the earl shi he defeated wasn't his prime self, and he didnt do it alone.

If a 1K commander is able to slay Rei Ou 1 vs 1 army vs army alone then yes he is worthy of a general promotion.

So Tou was right. First Ouhon didn't have enough experience and two his feats didn't show he worth more than 5K commander yet.


Houken was not a Great General level threat Rayan. Houken was not even a true General, he was placed into the roll by Riboku without having any ability to lead men or command using strategy and tactics
he was still a great heaven. Whatever reasons Riboku had, he still appointed him as one of the three main military commander of the whole Zhao force.

Gaimou is a fire Dragon, Moubu in the beginning was a bull too.

Riboku could have used Houken as a glorified Ranbihaku, a wild beast by his side. Yet he decided to put Houken as a gret Heaven.

I agree that Houken has no leadership capabilities but he is not stupid at all. During Bayou he managed to trap and manipulate Moubu.

Because as a General, Houken is nothing. It was as a General that Shin believed Riboku defeated Ouki, by manipulating the battlefield in a way that resulted in Ouki’s death, and that’s always what Shin has wanted, to be a Great General of the Heavens, not just the strongest guy to wield a Glaive. This stems from Shin’s desire to prove that even though he and Hyou were born slaves, that they could still become great heroes and rise to the top of the societies that they were born into the bottom of. Defeating Houken in a 1v1 is not as important to Shin as truly surpassing the strongest General of his era and the one ultimately responsible for Ouki’s and Duke Hyou’s death.
Yeah Shin goal never was surpassing Houken. But thinking Houken was nothing in Shin's mind is not completly right too.

Shin wasn't completly cold toward Houken



And he clearly remembered the man as the one who killed both of his mentors



You have placed way too much importance on who Houken is, where the Kingdom manga itself has never shown Houken to be this ultimate figure that you saw him as. Riboku yes, Houken no.
Houken wasn't some ultimate figure but he was indeed a corner stone in Shin path.

The Kingdom manga also put some good importance in Houken name not just me. Bayou with Kyoukai first dance, then Ouki death, then Coalition war, then Duke death, then duel with Shin, then Shukai plaines, put down Kyoukai and then fight Shin.

I don't see many reccuring antaginists like him other than Riboku. And he indeed was impactful.

Shukai Plains was not some battle. This marked the point where Qin came the closest it ever came to annihilating a major state. This was Qin “putting the blade to Zhao’s throat” as it were. And I’ll elaborate now on what I said above, there was no better place for Houken to die.

If Houken would’ve died alongside Kochou, you would’ve been saying the same thing you are now, if not worse since Riboku isn’t even present and Houken’s story directly coincides with Riboku’s. If Houken would’ve died alongside both Riboku and Shibashou, it would’ve felt like Hara pulled Zhao’s defeat out of his ass hole and the victory would’ve been unearned. The Qin characters would’ve developed major “we’re going to win no matter what” syndrome. It would’ve been like if Luffy, Law, and Kidd all defeated Shanks, Big Mom, Kaido, and EOS Blackbeard within minutes of each other. It would’ve just been so preposterous that the stakes for the future of Kingdom would’ve been significantly lowered as no other threats would’ve felt legitimate at that point.

So when you look at the structure of Zhao’s fall in the future, ending one of the biggest battles in Qin history with Houken’s death is exactly how things should’ve ended. It ended the Gyou campaign with a bang, and there was nowhere else in the story where Houken’s death would’ve fit in. On top of that, there was no better way to end the Gyou campaign itself than with the death of a Zhao Great General, and Houken was frankly the only one who could’ve died there.
Here we will disagree.

Houken could have been in the last fight against Riboku.

Here Kochou is gonna lose against the Qin armies. But we all know that Riboku is not finished yet and will come back with his team and will be the last step of Zhao real defeat.

Riboku is already the "strongest" right now so beating him is already sky high as an accomplishment. Yet after him Kou En and his super state will still be a real threat.

Chu is a super state with dozen of generals and guys like Kou En SHK Karin etc etc. I think Shin would find real opponents there. Beating Houken just before wouldn't diminish things.

And frankly i don't think Kingdom will go far from 1000 chaps. So all in all Riboku and Zhao were and will forever be Kingdom biggest and most important antagonists.

That’s the whole point if this “Weight of a Great General” crap lol. I know this website likes to try and be like “well Ouki was actually superior to Houken”, but he was not. He almost defeated Houken using weight in spite of the fact that he was weaker than Houken as a warrior in every category. This is Hara hammering that point home for the doubters. The strongest warrior in China is no match for those who have Weight, even when those who have Weight are much weaker than him (Shin). That’s what this whole plot line was supposed to be lol.
Oh yeah I agree with this : in pure martial might Houken was better : he was harder, faster, stronger etc.

Ouki vs Houken : Houken wins. Ouki + weight vs Houken : Ouki wins. But here we are talking about Ouki : a monster among monster fighting wise. I don't think there is 5 fighters better than Ouki in the verse. Ouki is a monster GG with decades fo experience and weight and fighting skills.

Duke Hyou had weight too and lost.

And from what we know about weight : it cames from the one you loved, the one you lost but also the most people lives you have upon your shoulders the more you have weight.

Shin was still too green, still didn't have enough people under him, and still didn't have enough experience to even think he has as much weight as Ouki or even Duke Hyou.

Shin and Houken distance was too far even with weight to be able to close the gap, and Shin weight was clearly exaggerated during the fight.

Why did you decide that Houken needed to have an epiphany and change his ways? What part of his story made you think that Houken was designed to give up his whole life philosophy? I don’t understand. You didn’t read Dressrosa and be like “well Doflamingo is disappointing because he should’ve realized that being a puppetmaster was wrong in the end.” “Actually Crocodike’s defeat sucked because he could’ve realized how mean he was being to Alabasta.” Like, Houken stands for what he stands for, and Shin defeats him. No villain’s defeat is cheapened by them not changing their whole life philosophy in the end.
Its not really the same thing.

here Luffy beat down his opponents in one fight and yet he beat down their philosophy.

But here the whole point with Houken is to show him hiw way of fighting cannot allow him to be the strongest. There were numerous fights over almost a decade.

Houken was beaten first time by Ouki, then a second time, then beat Hyou but still didn't understand, then fought Shin, then later after fought Kyoukai and Shin.

and we had like 0 progression : just Houken keeping his path again and again while he was proven wrong each time.

Houken seemed to almost find the truth like 2 seconds before he died. Its a shame he wasn't allowed to explore this path.

Shin and him should have glorious duel.

And about Croco and Doffy or even Moria : you clealry see that their defeats changed them. Croco put his ass in gear again and went in the NW, Moria left his island, and Doffy will likely return too. Defeat can change you.

If Houken was a one time villain i would understand but here Houken had a long long path and ending it that way is not satisfying.

Like I explained above, Shukai was the only place where Houken’s death fit in. When the only time you ever kill your villains is when you have your main character stats “okay it’s time to beat Houken now” a hundred chapters before it actually happens (Oda), then your world starts to feel like it’s full of stagnant characters just sitting around waiting for the MC to decide that it’s time to come and defeat them
I think you were clearly not satisfied by Kata vs Luffy, where Luffy needed 100 plot and lucky shot to beat him. Same with Kaido.

One piece would be way better if either the MC was better prepared or if the MC a little bit stronger when fighting his opponents.

Obviously underdog fights can be good and are good for shonen. But when the gap is too far things begin to become a mess.

Houken did not just randomly show up and die from a narrative sense, Hara foreshadowed his arrival well in advance, and just because Shin didn’t shout about how he would defeat Houken at the start of Shukai Plains doesn’t mean his presence in the end wasn’t set up well in advance by Hara.
Houken showing up at the end is not really my problem. Shin killing him, and Houken dying were mine.
Shin killed him too early and Houken died too early.
 
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Imagine if Akainu had killed Shanks at the end of Alabasta. But also killed Ace in the end of Marineford.

And at the end of Wano or Dressrosa, near the end of the fight, Akainu comes and Luffy kills him.

Houken demise felt that way. Way too soon, rushed, and out of place. It didn't feel like a proper conclusion.
Nah, Houken was fine where he was. His character arc was completed, his tragedy was concluded, his ability to further the plot was at an end and his death made for a large payoff to the end of Kingdom's longest arc. There was really no reason to keep him around any longer.
Houken was indeed important for Shin as a foe. he killed both his mentors, threatened the life of his friends numerous times etc.
That does not make him a rival. Lol.
And during Ouki vs Houken when Ouki said that they can't see each other eye to eye even in the end : didn't that pain you that 500 chapters later for their final showdown Shin and Houken didn't manage to fight each other eye to eye ? even for a brief moment ?
Honestly, no. Lol.

We have already had foes that eventually come to some understanding with Shin (e.g. Rinko, Mangoku, Seikyou).

It is not mandatory that every antagonist needs to come to an understanding with Shin. Especially not Houken since his entire deal is to be an antithesis to Shin.

The entire tragedy that makes up Houken's character is the contradiction of him seeking an answer that his beliefs instinctively compels him to reject because if he doesn't reject the answer then the answer will completely destroy the core of who he is.

Like I said, a mini character arc (for an outcome that would fit Gaimou more) for just Houken would be both pointless and boring.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
Not really.

It is a two ways things.

Ouhon didn't deserve a general promotion because his feat are not worthy of a general : the earl shi he defeated wasn't his prime self, and he didnt do it alone.

If a 1K commander is able to slay Rei Ou 1 vs 1 army vs army alone then yes he is worthy of a general promotion.

So Tou was right. First Ouhon didn't have enough experience and two his feats didn't show he worth more than 5K commander yet.
Well, do not forget that Ouhon didn’t just beat the best spear weilder we’d ever seen by a long shot in a spear fight, but he also bested Gohoumei’s defense of Chiyoyou. It was Ouhon who came up with the plan to crack Houmei’s defense and that succeeded.

Ouhon both tactically and martially proved that he was ready to stand among Generals, but what he lacked was experience which is why he wasn’t given the rank.

he was still a great heaven. Whatever reasons Riboku had, he still appointed him as one of the three main military commander of the whole Zhao force.
The only reason Riboku put Houken at Great Heaven, let’s be real, is because he wanted Houken to have the freedom to do whatever he wanted on the battlefield without anyone trying to interfere with his moves. Houken was certainly Great General level in a fight but his absolute lack of knowledge of anything related to strategy and tactics means he was most certainly not a Great Heaven level threat overall imo.

I agree that Houken has no leadership capabilities but he is not stupid at all. During Bayou he managed to trap and manipulate Moubu.
Houken was never stupid but his lack of ability to lead armies means he is less of an asset than every other Zhao Great General. Losing Kochou for example is a bigger blow to Zhao than losing Houken.

Yeah Shin goal never was surpassing Houken. But thinking Houken was nothing in Shin's mind is not completly right too.
He wasn’t nothing, but he never had the respect that Shin had for Riboku. To think Riboku is as significant of an opponent to face as Houken is wrong. Riboku is the more significant antagonist to Shin, no doubt.

Defeating Houken in a fight means that Shin has gotten very strong with a Glaive. Defeating Riboku in war means that Shin has solidified himself as a true Great General caliber individual, which is much more important to Shin than personal fighting strength is.

Here Kochou is gonna lose against the Qin armies. But we all know that Riboku is not finished yet and will come back with his team and will be the last step of Zhao real defeat.
Along with Shibashou. What’s the point of bringing back Houken when Shibashou is set to be the next martial terror of Zhao? Having Houken there would just be redundant when historically it was Shibashou at Riboku’s side during Zhao’s last days, not Houken.

Chu is a super state with dozen of generals and guys like Kou En SHK Karin etc etc. I think Shin would find real opponents there. Beating Houken just before wouldn't diminish things.
Shin will find legitimate Generals as his opponents in Chu. Not just martial maniacs which hold the title as a formality. Shin will find Generals who can rival his instincts, amp their own men’s morale to make them fight harder than Shin’s, and who will also be very powerful warriors.

Remember, Shin wants to be the Greatest General in China, not the strongest warrior in China.

And frankly i don't think Kingdom will go far from 1000 chaps. So all in all Riboku and Zhao were and will forever be Kingdom biggest and most important antagonists.
No, there will be more significant antagonists in the end I think. Maybe one or two.

Shin was still too green, still didn't have enough people under him, and still didn't have enough experience to even think he has as much weight as Ouki or even Duke Hyou.
See, @Owl Ki made a great post on this in the past, there is no such thing in Kingdom as “more weight” or “less weight.” You either have weight or you don’t, and from there it’s a question of martial strength. Not sure where you guys get this idea from unless you’re just using “weight” as shorthand for resolve/ambition/fighting spirit or whatever.

Houken was beaten first time by Ouki, then a second time, then beat Hyou but still didn't understand, then fought Shin, then later after fought Kyoukai and Shin.

and we had like 0 progression : just Houken keeping his path again and again while he was proven wrong each time.
Houken did have progression. I’m going to copy something I wrote on Reddit:

Not going to argue that Houken was a flawless character, but I think you’ve overlooked several aspects of Houken’s subtle character arc throughout the Manga.

After Houken almost lost to Ouki, Houken himself does become somewhat introspective. He journeys back into the woods to find out what strength he was missing, and trains ineffectively until Riboku sends Keisha to suggest that the secret Houken was missing lies on the battlefield. Houken then returns to the battlefield to fight Gekishin and participate in the Coalition War.

Against Gekishin, Houken slayed him using the exact same technique that post-stab Ouki used on Houken, where he rested his Glaive against Houken’s neck and almost killed him with one arm (I will shorten this to “Glaive Thrust”). From a thematic perspective, this is Houken’s own way of trying to understand Ouki’s strength himself, though he later tells Riboku that Gekishin was not a worthy enough challenge for him to understand that strength as he sought to.

Then Duke Hyou uses the Glaive Thrust on Houken, Houken throws Duke Hyou’s Glaive away and then Duke Hyou breaks his arm. Again, thematically this is showing Houken that the strength he seeks to understand is unattainable through his particular methods. After this is when Houken pretty much loses his mind for the rest of the manga.

For Houken to grow to understand the Great General weight himself, would also be to fundamentally throw Houken’s entire arc out of the window. Asking for an arc like this is almost like asking “hey, but what would happen if Emperor Palpatine didn’t want to rule the galaxy with an Empire? What if he realized that blowing up planets was wrong all along?” Like, that’s the whole point of the character being a villain.

If you want a character who wants to save humanity but then does it by learning what it means to be a Great General...then that doesn’t really sound like a villain to me. That sounds like how Shin’s perspective on being a Great General changed after he faced Mangoku. Such an ideology wouldn’t be appropriate for a villain to have, as by defeating and killing said villain, Hara would essentially be declaring that ideology to be wrong.

The point of Houken’s character is that he seeks to attain the strength to save humanity, but he is someone who isn’t attached to any humans at all. He has no friends, no comrades, no real allies who he is willing to risk his life for. He wants to save humanity, but he doesn’t care about any humans in particular.

If you want to talk about how Houken is poorly written, talk about how his character arc is so subtle that it’s easy for a lot of people to miss. Or how his ideology is clearly ridiculous from the start (though Houken was always portrayed as being somewhat crazy). Or talk about how his entire life’s motivation was revealed by a Riboku monologue instead of Houken’s own actions or words. But you shouldn’t say that he is poorly written because he doesn’t have a character arc, or that he was written to have a villain’s ideology from the start.

I think you were clearly not satisfied by Kata vs Luffy, where Luffy needed 100 plot and lucky shot to beat him. Same with Kaido.

One piece would be way better if either the MC was better prepared or if the MC a little bit stronger when fighting his opponents.

Obviously underdog fights can be good and are good for shonen. But when the gap is too far things begin to become a mess.
Yeah and if Shin slays/defeats Shibashou, Houken, and Riboku all in one battle…Christ almighty lmfao, how is anyone in the future supposed to pose a legit threat to him lol? Even if Kou En busts out multiple Kanmei level vassals, it would still be hard for me to suspend my disbelief and pretend like Chu is a legit threat to Shin at that point.

Yeah I get people might say “Shin came back from death’s brink, it’s already hard to pretend like he’ll ever lose again” but like…without spoilers, we know there are defeats Shin will face in the future.

Defeating all three of Zhao’s modern Great Heavens at once though, and then pretending Shin could ever lose to anyone ever again? That would basically feel like watching Luffy absorb 54 hits from Katakuri in stride only to be OHKO’d by Fucking Apoo lol.
 
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RayanOO

Lazy is the way
See, @Owl Ki made a great post on this in the past, there is no such thing in Kingdom as “more weight” or “less weight.” You either have weight or you don’t, and from there it’s a question of martial strength. Not sure where you guys get this idea from unless you’re just using “weight” as shorthand for resolve/ambition/fighting spirit or whatever.
I remember that, and I remember that even back then we disagreed about that. For me all weight are not equal, weight is not the same for everyone and some people carries more than others.


didn’t just beat the best spear weilder we’d ever seen by a long shot in a spear fight
He didn’t do that. He beat suicidal Earl Shi. He didn’t beat prime earl shi, the guy who destroyed 3 other Dragons.


Along with Shibashou. What’s the point of bringing back Houken when Shibashou is set to be the next martial terror of Zhao? Having Houken there would just be redundant when historically it was Shibashou at Riboku’s side during Zhao’s last days, not Houken
No one cares about Shibashou in the Kingdom manga, compared to Houken character the guy is barely existent. Maybe in real history he did amazing things but in manga Houken is a more important character for Shin and for the reader.

Shibashou could have been slain by Ouhon or Mouten Kyoukai or anyone else worthing something .


Yeah and if Shin slays/defeats Shibashou, Houken, and Riboku all in one battle…
Lol Shin isn’t forced to slay everyone

Shiba for someone else

Houken for his main 1 vs 1 martial wise

Riboku half with everyone help tactic wise and half with his own merit

Moubu beat down Kanmei and you didn’t see him rolling over anyone at that point. Shin indeed beat down Houken and still struggles against opponents.

Shin can still have a real worthy opponent like Kou En that hélas weight martial might brain and is merciless


f you want a character who wants to save humanity but then does it by learning what it means to be a Great General...then that doesn’t really sound like a villain to me. That sounds like how Shin’s perspective on being a Great General changed after he faced Mangoku. Such an ideology wouldn’t be appropriate for a villain to have, as by defeating and killing said villain, Hara would essentially be declaring that ideology to be wrong
Do you think Riboku ideaology us wrong ? Or his motivations ? Not at all. This is a one of the good thing about Kingdom. If Riboku had won the evil wouldn’t have won, just an other idea. Riboku is not a bad guy, just an antagonist.

Houken changing his mind and being killed by Shin doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be an antagonist.

I think you overestimate Houken changements over the years (with the glaive movements etc), he try to understand a little bit but didn’t manage at all, and even discard completly the weight/fighting for someone notion. Only at his dusk of his life he began to really challenged his views
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
He didn’t do that. He beat suicidal Earl Shi. He didn’t beat prime earl shi, the guy who destroyed 3 other Dragons.
He surpassed Shi Ei’s spear though. Shi Ei’s spear was said to be more destructive than it was in his prime, (faster, stronger) and Ouhon bested him through his knowledge of high-level theoretical martial arts.

Would Ouhon have defeated prime Shi Ei? Well, Shi Ei had self-preservation back then but his spear was also weaker. So who can say lol.

Do you think Riboku ideaology us wrong ? Or his motivations ? Not at all. This is a one of the good thing about Kingdom. If Riboku had won the evil wouldn’t have won, just an other idea. Riboku is not a bad guy, just an antagonist.
Riboku is not evil but he is a complete foil to Shin, he is written to be pretty much the polar opposite to Ouki who helped Shin realize what kind of General he wants to be.

Shiba for someone else

Houken for his main 1 vs 1 martial wise

Riboku half with everyone help tactic wise and half with his own merit
We can resume this I guess when we see what Hara has planned for Shibashou, because right now we can’t really say what value he’ll offer than Houken wouldn’t lol.
 
Korean Scans Ch. 689: https://manatoki95.net/comic/9332368
And another break next week (by The Author) :josad:
Full Summary by Jeeswag from TKC

Shin's Battle:
Though Shin is doing better fighting against Gakuhaku with his sword he is still struggling. Suugen says the enemy's way of fighting changed again. Some enemy cavalry gets thru to attack Shin and Suugen yells at their own cavalry asking what they're doing. Garo says he knows but they're strong enough to avoid being held back by them. Suugen says he doesn't want to hear excuses and tells the infantry to protect Shin. One of the infantry says if the enemy is going to do it then they should try to take out the enemy general too and charges at GKHK. Shin tells them to stay away before they get cut down by GKHK. Suugen says to not be afraid and charge. Shin yells at Suugen to stop. If he dies then the infantry will crumble. Suugen replies saying if Shin dies then the whole HSU will end. Shin says he knows and asks that they just cover him.

GKHK says they have a strong bond amongst the invaders. He says it's probably through the delight found in solidarity and friendship that they were able to grow. He says for humans the greatest entertainment in war is the pleasure it brings. That's why they can keep fighting without getting bored. Especially, for those who are strong, the war to invade others is hard to resist. However, putting an end to those very people is what brings GKHK the most pleasure.

Shin says he's very disappointed in GKHK. Even despite calling them invaders he doesn't sense any anger within GKHK. He's insanely strong yet Shin can't feel anything from him. He doesn't deny that they are the invaders but he refuses to lose to someone as easygoing as GKHK. GKHK says the fact that he seems easygoing is due to Shin's youth. He says him along with Kochou and crew have seen a view that Shin has yet to see. That is where Kochou embraced the pain of war. Along with that he also received the glory, pain, delight and the occupation of war and that's just the way the world is. Shin says it's because of that that nothing has changed. GKHK says it's surprising to hear that from Shin and that he sounds like a ruler. Shin asks what's wrong with that since he's not as easygoing as GKHK.

Shin gets hit by an enemy, Suugen yells out Garo's name and Garo takes the enemy out. Shin is then attacked again by GKHK. GKHK says whether an invader with a strong consciousness or is simply an idiot they all die eventually. Shin says he knows that and GKHK says then it's useless for him to think too deeply about this. Shin says that's exactly why he's too easygoing and that he shouldn't bother learning how to fight and says he's out of line. GKHK says he's simply fulfilling his occupation while Shin says he won't acknowledge him. GKHK asks if he knows how they get to decide who's right in this situation and Shin says the winner gets to decide who's right to which GKHK agrees.

Shin starts losing and one of GKHK's soldiers say that GKHK has a fighting style that mixes his swordsmanship with his martial arts so tho Shin could match him thru swordsmanship he would need an equal skill in hand to hand combat to beat GKHK and doesn't believe Shin can beat him. Shin thinks that if he blocks GKHK's sword with his sword then his sword won't reach GKHK and the chances of winning with punchs and kicks are low. The only way to get thru it is to go thru his sword. Shin gets an idea and exchanges looks with Bihei. He thinks that he won't be able to get thru his defense with the sword so if that's the case then he'll block his mobility and he cuts into GKHK's leg. Shin then calls out Bihei's name and Bihei along with Kou tosses General Ouki's glaive to Shin.

Break next week!
 
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