Controversial General Political Discussion

[Okamakama]

This is not a shonen manga man. You don't kill innocents just because a terrorist group did it. That's how half a million iraqis died in the first place. You're a privileged first world kid that has never had to deal with real struggle like the gazans living in an open air prison or not having clean water to drink. Your lack of emapthy is palpable, and truly cringeworthy.

Btw a lot of the victim's families have called for a ceasefire, those who experience real loss are able to gauge how painful it is to lose a child or a parent regardless of who you are. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I am not ashamed. I never once said I endorsed it. As always, you mischaracterize and speak down at others like you're everybody's teacher.

I said I can empathise with the original rage that caused the counterstrikes. Furthermore, I am 1st world, but don't try to speak of other's experiences. You know nothing but your own story.

I'm not saying kill all the civilians. I am saying, if anything, eradicate each and every one of the terrorists, and I stand by that.

 

[Toby D. Dog]

I am not ashamed. I never once said I endorsed it. As always, you mischaracterize and speak down at others like you're everybody's teacher.

I said I can empathise with the original rage that caused the counterstrikes. Furthermore, I am 1st world, but don't try to speak of other's experiences. You know nothing but your own story.

I'm not saying kill all the civilians. I am saying, if anything, eradicate each and every one of the terrorists, and I stand by that.

The way they are eradicating terrorist ends up having a 90% civilian casualty rate. And true, I don't know your life experience, but I'm willing to bet a million dollars you've never had to drink toxic water or been displaced from your own home by colonizers and settlers. You have a lot of "empathy" for IDF terrorists and Israeli civilians (which is valid) But where is your empathy for the hundreds if not thousands of children that have been murdered by the Israeli government last week? What about their rage? They've been humilliated for 70 years, imprisoned, tortured, forced to live in an open air prison and watch as their oppressors kill their children and control every single aspect of their lives? You don't know or want to understand their struggles.

 

[Phoenix D. King]

there are no proofs
when faced with facts the goal post shifts
the rocket failing was confirmed on so many sources, and now confirmed in a lot of mainstream media and by the US and Biden.

I think the babies thing did have some fake news about it, I think they lumped babies, infants, kids and teenagers into that number. I have personally seen tons of gore and know someone who patrolled that area and was told it's real.

They support Hamas. since 2006 nothing happened. No coup attemp. No calls for help. Just support or silent support for Hamas

all this international support will fade within 2 months, at most.

same with Ukraine, same with everything

eventually something else will come up and headlines like "1200 Civillians killed in Gaza" will be buried by opinion pieces complaining about the US not giving enough aid to whoever

 

[Logiko]

Contries who support LGBT shit defends israel. How ironic.
You dont have to wake up and see the truth. Cause u cant.

Rly the World is doomed.

Can you tell me why I support Palestine then ?

 

[NikaInParis]

- Hamas was elected in 2006
- They are not the current government of Gaza
- The majority (that means more than half) of Gaza's population is under 18

So how exactly are the citizens in 2023 supporting them?

 

[Okamakama]

The way they are eradicating terrorist ends up having a 90% civilian casualty rate. And true, I don't know your life experience, but I'm willing to bet a million dollars you've never had to drink toxic water or been displaced from your own home by colonizers and settlers. You have a lot of "empathy" for IDF terrorists and Israeli civilians (which is valid) But where is your empathy for the hundreds if not thousands of children that have been murdered by the Israeli government last week? What about their rage? They've been humilliated for 70 years, imprisoned, tortured, forced to live in an open air prison and watch as their oppressors kill their children and control every single aspect of their lives? You don't know or want to understand their struggles.

If we can argue the 70 years of hurt, we can also argue that Israel, or that land, originally belonged to the Jews, once upon a time.

As for your statements. They're very specific so you'd Win that bet, but I've been displaced before. I've been forced, by circumstance, to drink polluted water... but I have not experienced Gaza, no.

Look, our convos seem to always be arguments. I'd like to extend some olive branch of peace -- especially since I am also guilty of propagating it.

If you'd be willing, I'd like to settle things through rational talking, a discord or Skype or whatever kind of call. Maybe by adding a face to each other, we can stop what is essentially a never ending argument.

 

[Toby D. Dog]

If we can argue the 70 years of hurt, we can also argue that Israel, or that land, originally belonged to the Jews, once upon a time.

As for your statements. They're very specific so you'd Win that bet, but I've been displaced before. I've been forced, by circumstance, to drink polluted water... but I have not experienced Gaza, no.

Look, out convos seem to always be arguments. I'd like to extend some olive branch of peace -- especially since I am also guilty of propagating it.

If you'd be willing, I'd like to settle things through rational talking, a discord or Skype or whatever kind of call. Maybe by adding a face to each other, we can stop what is essentially a never ending argument.

I'm not gonna call you wtf??
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e can also argue that Israel, or that land, originally belonged to the Jews, once upon a time.

How can you compare 70 years of contemporary history to some shit that happened more than a thousand years ago. Askhenazi Jews are mostly of European ancestry, there's a reason as to why the Palestinians are considered indigenous to the region. You clearly lack basic knowledge on the matter, and you're more than willing to draw false equivalences just for the sake of winning the argument.

 

[Zenos7]

I'm not gonna call you wtf??
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How can you compare 70 years of contemporary history to some shit that happened more than a thousand years ago. Askhenazi Jews are mostly of European ancestry, there's a reason as to why the Palestinians are considered indigenous to the region. You clearly lack basic knowledge on the matter, and you're more than willing to draw false equivalences just for the sake of winning the argument.

Wdym mostly european? Does the ratio of jew/european really matter?

 

[Toby D. Dog]

Wdym mostly european? Does the ratio of jew/european really matter?

Cause that means they're not indigenous to the region. Let me use myself as an example. I have around 15% native south american ancestry. If you look at white americans, some of them have 5 to 10 percent of native ancestry. Still, would you consider contemporary white americans as "indigenous" to the region? Don't think so. The Palestinians are in fact indigenous to what you now call Israel, genetic studies deem it so. Meaning in reality, this is just another case of European colonizers taking over and destroying the native population.

Edit: being a Jew and European is not mutually exclusive, wtf are you talking about?
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https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html

 

[Okamakama]

I'm not gonna call you wtf??
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How can you compare 70 years of contemporary history to some shit that happened more than a thousand years ago. Askhenazi Jews are mostly of European ancestry, there's a reason as to why the Palestinians are considered indigenous to the region. You clearly lack basic knowledge on the matter, and you're more than willing to draw false equivalences just for the sake of winning the argument.

Well, I tried. It's called civil discussion and actual dialogue rather than arguing over text.

I'm done. You speak of false equivalences, but you're cherry picking what is indiginous and what is not. You are taking the argumentations of the alleged oppressed as truth and running with it. The people in Palestine are not being accepted as refugees in other countries for a reason. If given impunity, I sincerely doubt they would coexist with the Jews.

Unfortunately, you're seeing the world as you want it to be, not what it is. People of vast cultural differences do not melt together, they tend to grind against each other. Do I condone Israel's actions? Not particularly. Do I believe that the Palestinians are poor victims who would live peacefully with the Jews without expecting them to change? Fuck no. There is propaganda on Palestinian Television about killing Jews -- but let's pretend like Israel is not at threat and they're just terrorists.

 

[Toby D. Dog]

Well, I tried. It's called civil discussion and actual dialogue rather than arguing over text.

I'm done. You speak of false equivalences, but you're cherry picking what is indiginous and what is not. You are taking the argumentations of the alleged oppressed as truth and running with it. The people in Palestine are not being accepted as refugees in other countries for a reason. If given impunity, I sincerely doubt they would coexist with the Jews.

Unfortunately, you're seeing the world as you want it to be, not what it is. People of vast cultural differences do not melt together, they tend to grind against each other. Do I condone Israel's actions? Not particularly. Do I believe that the Palestinians are poor victims who would live peacefully with the Jews without expecting them to change? Fuck no. There is propaganda on Palestinian Television about killing Jews -- but let's pretend like Israel is not at threat and they're just terrorists.

I'll say this to you in a civil way just so we're clear. I have absolutely no interest in calling you or showing my face to you, and you shouldn't care that much in the first place. Do I find your views repugnant? Yes, but that doesn't mean I care enough about what you think to literally hop in on a call with a complete stranger just for the sake of squashing some irrelevant forum drama. You and I are neither friends nor enemies. I don't know you so it's hard for me to actually genuinely hate you or any other person in this forum. I can find the things you say disgusting and dislike the way you present yourself, but that doesn't mean I care enough about you or what you think to go out of my way to talk to you in any other way. If you want to ft do it with your friends or your family.

 

[Okamakama]

I'll say this to you in a civil way just so we're clear. I have absolutely no interest in calling you or showing my face to you, and you shouldn't care that much in the first place. Do I find your views repugnant? Yes, but that doesn't mean I care enough about what you think to literally hop in on a call with a complete stranger just for the sake of squashing some irrelevant forum drama. You and I are neither friends nor enemies. I don't know you so it's hard for me to actually genuinely hate you or any other person in this forum. I can find the things you say disgusting and dislike the way you present yourself, but that doesn't mean I care enough about you or what you think to go out of my way to talk to you in any other way. If you want to ft do it with your friends or your family.

You know, this is a fair and measured response. I accept that. I was under an impression that, no matter what we said, we'd just end up arguing. I'm kind of sick of it -- especially of mischaracterizations. You read some of what I say, but ignore the other parts. I am not gung-ho excited about death, destruction, misery and oppression. But I don't want to oversimplify these topics with: "X good and Y bad." Still, I guess this is the politics thread, so idfk man.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1714706863349027317

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I agree here. We should just sanction the shit out of Israel and economically force them to stop this genocide.

This is where the bias shows. When Putin attacked Ukraine our politicians went on tangents about why each and every connection to Russia must be destroyed, be it economically or culturally by firing Russian museum directors etc.
And when Israel commits acts of genocide against little kids we StaNd aGAinSt AntiSemiTiSM

 

[Phoenix D. King]

This is where the bias shows. When Putin attacked Ukraine our politicians went on tangents about why each and every connection to Russia must be destroyed, be it economically or culturally by firing Russian museum directors etc.
And when Israel commits acts of genocide against little kids we StaNd aGAinSt AntiSemiTiSM

unfortunately, as long as its only small non-players like Spain, Israel wont be shaken


until the United States does something, dont expect anything

 

[Roo]

The Palestinians are in fact indigenous to what you now call Israel, genetic studies deem it so.

what study?

A study found that the Palestinians, like Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis and Kurds have what appears to be Female-Mediated gene flow in the form of Maternal DNA Haplogroups from Sub-Saharan Africa. 15% of the 117 Palestinian individuals tested carried maternal haplogroups that originated in Sub-Saharan Africa. These results are consistent with female migration from eastern Africa into Near Eastern communities within the last few thousand years. There have been many opportunities for such migrations during this period. However, the most likely explanation for the presence of predominantly female lineages of African origin in these areas is that they may trace back to women brought from Africa as part of the Arab slave trade, assimilated into the areas under Arab rule.

A 2013 study by Haber et al. found that "The predominantly Muslim populations of Syrians, Palestinians and Jordanians cluster on branches with other Muslim populations as distant as Morocco and Yemen." The authors explained that "religious affiliation had a strong impact on the genomes of the Levantines. In particular, conversion of the region's populations to Islam appears to have introduced major rearrangements in populations' relations through admixture with culturally similar but geographically remote populations leading to genetic similarities between remarkably distant populations."

The levant has gone through periods of mass immigration + emigration. You'd be twisting your head around trying to figure out who's really "indigenous" to the area.

 

[Toby D. Dog]

what study?




The levant has gone through periods of mass immigration + emigration. You'd be twisting your head around trying to figure out who's really "indigenous" to the area.

Relatively. At the very least we know that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to central and eastern Europeans than they are to the Jews that spoke Aramaic 2000 years ago. Palestinians are unquestionably more tied to the region.

 

[Roo]

Relatively. At the very least we know that spehardic jews and Ashkenazi jews are more closley related to central and eastern europeans than they are to the Jews that spoke Aramaic 2000 years ago. Palestinians are unquestionably more tied to the region.

Not really

In recent years, genetic studies have demonstrated that, at least paternally, Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians are related to each other.[97] Genetic studies on Jews have shown that Jews and Palestinians are closer to each other than the Jews are to their host countries.[98][99] At the haplogroup level, defined by the binary polymorphisms only, the Y chromosome distribution in Arabs and Jews was similar but not identical

According to a 2010 study by Behar et al. titled "The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people", Palestinians tested clustered genetically close to Bedouins, Jordanians and Saudi Arabians which was described as "consistent with a common origin in the Arabian Peninsula".[101] In the same year a study by Atzmon and Harry Ostrer concluded that the Palestinians were, together with Bedouins, Druze and southern European groups, the closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish populations

several studies have shown even the whitest jewish people share a lot of genetic similarity to the people in the arab peninsula, meaning they are genetic neighbors

 

[Toby D. Dog]

Not really





several studies have shown even the whitest jewish people share a lot of genetic similarity to the people in the arab peninsula, meaning they are genetic neighbors

https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html

 

[Roo]

https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html

You’re using 1 article written in 2013, while I’m using Wikipedia which has an aggregate of studies as late as 2021.

You should keep reading about this instead of relying on 1 article that seems to have very little validity amongst geneticist

 

[NikaInParis]

A June 2023 poll conducted by Khalil Shikaki, professor of political science and director of the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, indicated that 79% of Gazans supported armed opposition to Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory. A Washington Institute poll from July 2023 found that only 57% of Gazans held a “somewhat positive” opinion of Hamas.


https://theconversation.com/hamas-was-unpopular-in-gaza-before-it-attacked-israel-surveys-showed-gazans-cared-more-about-fighting-poverty-than-armed-resistance-215640#:~:text=Gazans hold mixed views of Hamas&text=A Washington Institute poll from,somewhat positive” opinion of Hamas.

Armed opposition to Israeli occupation is a right given to Palestinians by the UN itself. That does no equate to support for Hamas.

And, more importantly, the majority of Gazans are underage, as I have already stated. Any poll that includes a statistic above 50% either willfully includes opinions of children willfully ignores the demographics of Gaza.


Of course, children were the majority before these recent IDF bombings. The IDF and Israel's political leaderships are working hard to rectify these statistics