Controversial General Political Discussion

[Logiko]

Many antifascist groups (antifa as avarage Americans refer to these groups) are vociferously authoritarian and anti free speech.

Hm no, not really as I'm an antifascist myself (just not the kind who use violence). Never heard about groups being against freespeech as being against freespeech would instantly put you into the authoritarian/far right/fascist territory.

Do you have specific examples ?

Of course I hate the woke

Ok, but WHY are you hating them ? This is the question that you must ask yourself.

another fantasy cause most humans are greedy by nature

And that's a myth, a essentialist one of top of that. Humans are not greedy by nature, greedyness is something that is aquired.

Without a stable society and string morals humans do be greedy and murderous af. That's why social rules and laws are a thing

Actually the reason social rules and laws exist is because we live in an unstable society where we do not yet understand all of our behaviors and how to change them. In a more stable society where we can acts on those behaviors and what creates them, those rules are not really that needed.

Simple example the law "do not steel" is needed in our capitalist society, because some people sometimes have to steel. Now, if you remove the need to steel or the reason that create the need to steel, there is no reasons to have a rule anymore.

redefining words

To make them closer to reality*

They'll concquer other groups and turn them into slaves

The act of conquering is not written in our DNA. Its a social act that has social causes.

can you really imagine a world where everyone is satisfied with what they have without going for more

I can. Its possible if you try to imagine a world where wanting more is not needed.

You're aggressively pushing the narrative that humans are greedy and sociopathic by nature. What a pessimistic outlook on life!

And wrong on top of that. He is essentializing humanity. This is not how social behaviors work.

 

[AL sama]

A family is not greedy towards each other, aftwr all.

no offense but this line is too funny to me

family members are reedy but after a certain point so its less visible and I m seeing and experiencing countless examples everyday

 

[Etzel Andergast]

This kind of thinking would be problematic. But I don't think this is what AL is talking about. He thinks ALL people are greedy pos

I saw a commie saying that. "A new kind of man will emerge and he won't be greedy".

Thats sound sooooo ontological...

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

Hm no, not really as I'm an antifascist myself

This is low key you confirming it

 

[Logiko]

I saw a commie saying that. "A new kind of man will emerge and he won't be greedy".

Thats sound sooooo ontological...

Because you don't have the context of this sentence. The sentence plus the context should be:

"In the future, scientific researches, progressive politics and our willingness to evolve will allow humanity to understand how to act on causes that creates socially harming behaviors and will be able to remove the need for these behavior to arise and if necessary, prevent them from hurting people. Therefore, a new kind of human will emerge and he won't be greedy."

This is low key you confirming it

Well yeah, and I'm not against free speech so this is a baseless accusation on antifascist... unless of course he has example of antifascist group being authoritarian.

 

[AL sama]

what I wrote: if humans went back to living in smaller self sufficient communities based on strong values, there would be a better life for everyone

what AL reads: "if humans went back to living in smaller self sufficient communities based on strong values, we can create an utopian Paradise on earth"

AL you can't deny that capitalistic society rewards anti social behavior and greed, children are taught to be consumers and to never be satisfied with what they have. Of course we are turning out greedy af! What are you expecting!? We are exposed to social engineering through television, movies, social media.

gonna take this out of context and say, a world where everyone is self sufficient is just fantasy unless everyone starts living alone

RIP english

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

And that's a myth, a essentialist one of top of that. Humans are not greedy by nature, greedyness is something that is aquired.

Experiments with toddlers show that helping others and cooperating is our nature. But Children pick up behaviors of adults they are exposed to ,and very easily. Greedy asshole parents will raise their children accordingly.

Simple example the law "do not steel" is needed in our capitalist society, because some people sometimes have to steel. Now, if you remove the need to steel or the reason that create the need to steel, there is no reasons to have a rule anymore.

there used to be communities where people never locked their doors because they could be sure their neighbors are not breaking in. Many communities were like this until very recently, in the west, in Asia, everywhere. I guess this is hard to imagine for many of the younger people today.

The act of concquering is not written in our DNA. Its a social act that has social causes.

Well even chimps do it. Humans put a lot of effort into the creation of social rules and values and that's very necessary.

I saw a commie saying that. "A new kind of man will emerge and he won't be greedy".

Thats sound sooooo ontological...

The "new kind of man" of our times is the empty hearted, uprooted city dweller, living alone in a crowd, eternally searching for an identity, a slave to consumerism and obsessed with proving their value to absolute strangers. This kind of man and woman has never existed before,at least not to this extent.

RIP english

Well that's what someone who is out of arguments posts as a response....

 

[Herrera95]

Hard disagree. Violent hordes without laws don't "regulate themselves". They'll concquer other groups and turn them into slaves

If they conquer they will have law. This only exists with state. State has being around us for long and this wasn't reason to avoid wars. Look what is happening now around the world.
[automerge]1707351625[/automerge]

How is it possible to guarantee the existence of an institution called "private property" if there is no state?

How does state guarantee such existence? Through sheer force right? And WHEN they do guarantee. Because you can see many cases of people breaking into private properties and stolen for them while State giving them rights to it.

 

[AL sama]

Well that's what someone who is out of arguments posts as a response....

if you wanna troll then carry on

my point clearly went over your head

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

If they conquer they will have law.

This makes no sense

 

[Herrera95]

Maybe I wasn't precise enough, I wasn't talking about individuals living on deserted islands, I did mean societies. In a self sufficient society with relatively flat hierarchy there are no "jobs" in the modern sense

I'm the hope who brought the guy living on deserted island as the only way a single person can live auto sufficient. If you want more than that you will need the help of others and make a society like Amish.

I'm not fully following your idea of self sufficient society with relatively flat hierachy where there would be no jobs? Job is just a word the key thing here is that people have to work to live or someone/something has to work for them.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

if you wanna troll then carry on

my point clearly went over your head

 

[Herrera95]

When a country's executive explains that it is normal and necessary to starve and prevent medical care to the population of another nation, then NO, the argument of said countries that the organization trying to feed and take care of the population is completely corrupted is NOT credible you genocide denier.

No one is defending that.

What is being defendend is that UN stops to suppling Hamas because all of their supplies are going to Hamas and I showed the video about Palestians civillians claiming that.
[automerge]1707351915[/automerge]

This makes no sense

Why unorganized individuals would conqueror others?

They need to have laws for that. A guide, something to follow. We are the rules and they are the slaves. We have to order and they to obey. Something like that. Governament you know?

 

[Toby D. Dog]

Hm no, not really as I'm an antifascist myself (just not the kind who use violence). Never heard about groups being against freespeech as being against freespeech would instantly put you into the authoritarian/far right/fascist territory.

Do you have specific examples ?

Jesus, I never said all of them. There's a jubile interview of an antifascist militant saying free speech is just a tool for hate speech. Nobody is saying that's what you believe. But there are some of them that don't believe in it.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

I'm the hope who brought the guy living on deserted island as the only way a single person can live auto sufficient. If you want more than that you will need the help of others and make a society like Amish.

I'm not fully following your idea of self sufficient society with relatively flat hierachy where there would be no jobs? Job is just a word the key thing here is that people have to work to live or someone/something has to work for them.

A job in the modern sense has nothing to do with working for a living. Most people don't get what they deserve for all the work they do because random rich people make up nonsense like low wages while paying themselves unwieldy sums of money for doing absolutely nothing. Today nobody lives of their own hands ' work

No one is defending that.

A good example of what c4n brought up would be the gas crisis we had here in Germany following the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Politicians decided to sanction the living excrements out of Russia because "Western values" and whatnot and at the same time they told the citizens to turn down the heating in winter and to freeze for democracy.🤣 Meanwhile they pay themselves so much money that they could have easily prevented the rising gas prices from affecting those with the least financial means.

 

[Etzel Andergast]

How does state guarantee such existence? Through sheer force right?

Yeah, legitimate monopoly of violence

Because you can see many cases of people breaking into private properties and stolen for them while State giving them rights to it.

That's why it's better to run the state ethically, to avoid absurdities like that, than to abolish the state

 

[Toby D. Dog]

That's why it's better to run the state ethically, to avoid absurdities like that, than to abolish the state

We'd be fucked without a state.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

if you wanna troll then carry o

There's no legitimate reason to pride yourself in your skills in a colonial language As Lama (<- troll post)

 

[Ravagerblade]

 

[Etzel Andergast]

We'd be fucked without a state.

I'm not a fan of consequentialist arguments tbh. I'm just trying to show to Herrera that the state, by it's coercive nature, its the only factor that conceptually guarantees rights (including obviously private property right).