Controversial General Political Discussion

[Toby D. Dog]

Now now hold on


You are treading on a thin line of passing verdict of guilty by association.


Voting Trump or any leader doesn't equate to full ideological alignment or affiliation.

There could be swing voters, conservatives, voters who particularly vote based on one aspect like economy or inflation, there could be moderate right leaning voters.


Calling them all "the far right" is exactly the generalization I was talking about.

I would've agreed with you after he got elected in his first term. But being a person that tripled Trump is obviously part of the far right. Bro is a convicted criminal and unquestionably the most corrupt president in the history of the country.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:31 PM

That's not it, because I also enjoy it (sometimes) and like to argue on it.
He just refuses to be wrong, no matter what.
Even if you tell him 1+1 = 2, he'd walk the earth trying to find a way to prove it's actually 3.
It's not that he enjoys to argue, he just enjoys to feel correct, no matter if he actually is correct.

that's what I was trying to say.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Wait if you’re just living in an unsafe area how is that bad

Everyone has to live somewhere.

I know. But saying that you'll purposefully live in a bad area because you think it's actually a land of opportunity is a very poorly thought out statement.
Trying to argue that I'm racist because I call out certain black people for being genuinely terrible people is like saying I'm sexist because I call out the men that beat their wife and kids.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:31 PM

I would've agreed with you after he got elected in his first term. But being a person that tripled Trump is obviously part of the far right. Bro is a convicted criminal and unquestionably the most corrupt president in the history of the country.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:31 PM

that's what I was trying to say.

Sorry if I didn't understand you.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:34 PM

If it’s about like “equal rights equal fights” or whatever, it can be quite justifiably scary for a woman to hear a male friend say if a woman hits him he will gladly hit her back. Even if “justified” most will probably fear you more if they know you wouldn’t do it just because you don’t want to cause serious harm.

I specifically said I don't condone men who would hit a woman (assuming it's not an especially strong woman who's strong enough to even the playing field). Please stop with this.

 

[eamonpro]

That's not it, because I also enjoy it (sometimes) and like to argue on it.
He just refuses to be wrong, no matter what.
Even if you tell him 1+1 = 2, he'd walk the earth trying to find a way to prove it's actually 3.
It's not that he enjoys to argue, he just enjoys to feel correct, no matter if he actually is correct.

Did you want to talk to logiko or did you want logiko to tell you you’re right and ensure that their beliefs change and yours don’t

You didn’t say 1+1=2, talking about “overly ghetto black people” isn’t an objective thing, it’s a matter of opinion on your and their side. You can’t pretend it is such a logical based question. As an outsider you have your own issues with communication.

 

[Logiko]

This sort of approach makes people close off to whatever you have to say.

There is no win possible with you guy.

If I don't say anything, people use me as insults
If I say simple stuff, people ignore it.
If I say "I can't consider someone a ally" I get criticized
If someone say "well explain it" and I do, I get criticized
If someone criticize me defnding myself, I get criticized
If I explain that I'm not here to win, but to stop actual harmfull rethoric, I get criticized

Am I even the problem here?

He just refuses to be wrong, no matter what.

Type "you are right" and the name logiko in the research bar please.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Did you want to talk to logiko or did you want logiko to tell you you’re right and ensure that their beliefs change and yours don’t

You didn’t say 1+1=2, talking about “overly ghetto black people” isn’t an objective thing, it’s a matter of opinion on your and their side. You can’t pretend it is such a logical based question. As an outsider you have your own issues with communication.

Obviously he's not going to agree with me on everything, knowing how he is. I just want him to actually give good arguments for his beliefs rather than just constantly saying "Hmmm well I understand it but YOU don't! So there's no point in me trying to convince you on this, I'm right and you're wrong, that's it!

 

[Toby D. Dog]

There is no win possible with you guy.

If I don't say anything, people use me as insults
If I say simple stuff, people ignore it.
If I say "I can't consider someone a ally" I get criticized
If someone say "well explain it" and I do, I get criticized
If someone criticize me defnding myself, I get criticized
If I explain that I'm not here to win, but to stop actual harmfull rethoric, I get criticized

Am I even the problem here?

Maybe a little bit more introspection would do you some good.

No one is insulting you right now.

 

[Logiko]

Trying to argue that I'm racist

I'm racist too, I'm not making a fuss about it. Knowing that we are racist because we live in a racist system and doing something about it instead of refusing to aknowledge it are two very different thing.

knowing how he is.

Knowing what I know rather*

It's not about who I am, it's about the knowledge that made me who I am.

Hmmm well I understand it but YOU don't! So there's no point in me trying to convince you on this, I'm right and you're wrong, that's it!

I can't explain something you don't understand to you without showing you that you don't understand the point. You factually don't understand the point. This is not a relative matter here.

It's like me explaining to you that you don't understand the fact that the earth is round and showing you why. How do you expect me to explain it to you without showing you that your current vision of the world is not correct ?

I just want him to actually give good arguments

I did, you completely ignored it.

Do a simple thing : Go to chatgpt (I don't care if you have never tried it before, create an account), and ask it this:

"Please, vulgarize to me the sociologic concept of WHITENESS based on leftist materialist thinking, with sources please" > I'm doing that know because it's much more easy to explain. I gave you everything you need to understand my point.

Maybe a little bit more introspection would do you some good.

No one is insulting you right now.

It's all I have been doing since my return here.

Maybe it would be good for everyone else to start too. Don't you think ?

 

[eamonpro]

I know. But saying that you'll purposefully live in a bad area because you think it's actually a land of opportunity is a very poorly thought out statement.
Trying to argue that I'm racist because I call out certain black people for being genuinely terrible people is like saying I'm sexist because I call out the men that beat their wife and kids.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:31 PM

Sorry if I didn't understand you.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:34 PM

I specifically said I don't condone men who would hit a woman (assuming it's not an especially strong woman who's strong enough to even the playing field). Please stop with this.

You think young people who think the area they grew up in is a “land of opportunity” are “legitimately terrible people?” I think it might be a misguided belief. It’s because you lump together that and not dressing right with “men who beat their wives and kids” that people may think differently. And honestly, most people won’t want to watch whatever “check out this YouTube video of this guy talking about how this group of minorities is bad” and will experience involuntary revulsion at it

I know you said that. Please chill. I was confused by the “If you yearn for equality so badly, then apply that to basically everything. Don't put either gender on a pedestal in any case.“ I was merely trying to point out I think that attitude is scarier than you realize. Put yourself in a woman’s shoes, when she wants to vote and work and be respected as an equal and you jump to these arguments it would probably only embolden her. Like there are dudes who would be like “oh yeah you wanna be equal but still want the man to open your pickle jar???” And I’m not saying you are that, I’m saying that association is what gets you called misogynist regardless of what you may believe.

I am posting to promote understanding. You are not innocent here with jumping to post about how the person who said that thing about you are exhausting or whatever. Not “not innocent” as in “you meant to act in a way that wasn’t ideal,” but you yourself engage in making judgements about people who respond to your post from the jump and it influences how they interact with you, and I doubt you came off as the most understanding to them either.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

I'm racist too

What the fuck???

 

[Logiko]

What the fuck???

I told you, you don't get it


<<<<< Profil picture

 

[eamonpro]

What the fuck???

They were saying that they have unconscious biases and try to recognize that

In my experience acting like we don’t hold any problematic thoughts or feelings if we consciously disagree with them is foolish.

For example, who is more likely to pass racist legislation: a politician who says that they can never be racist or a politician who says they recognize they can have biases. I’d expect the guy who thinks he can never be racist to not realize possible implications of a policy, while the other guy who recognizes it would be more likely to seek outside perspectives.

It’s the difference between for example like “i think of a sweeping judgement about Mexicans, and I know I can hold racist biases from my upbringing and society, so I’ll rethink the logic and recognize that no, people are different individuals.” And “I think a sweeping judgement about Mexicans, and I’m not racist, so this guys probably a criminal!” At least that’s the school of thought

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

You think young people who think the area they grew up in is a “land of opportunity” are “legitimately terrible people?” I think it might be a misguided belief. It’s because you lump together that and not dressing right with “men who beat their wives and kids” that people may think differently. And honestly, most people won’t want to watch whatever “check out this YouTube video of this guy talking about how this group of minorities is bad” and will experience involuntary revulsion at it

I know you said that. Please chill. I was confused by the “If you yearn for equality so badly, then apply that to basically everything. Don't put either gender on a pedestal in any case.“ I was merely trying to point out I think that attitude is scarier than you realize. Put yourself in a woman’s shoes, when she wants to vote and work and be respected as an equal and you jump to these arguments it would probably only embolden her. Like there are dudes who would be like “oh yeah you wanna be equal but still want the man to open your pickle jar???” And I’m not saying you are that, I’m saying that association is what gets you called misogynist regardless of what you may believe.

I am posting to promote understanding. You are not innocent here with jumping to post about how the person who said that thing about you are exhausting or whatever. Not “not innocent” as in “you meant to act in a way that wasn’t ideal,” but you yourself engage in making judgements about people who respond to your post from the jump and it influences how they interact with you, and I doubt you came off as the most understanding to them either.

It's not the kid I'm mad at, he doesn't know any better. It's the parent's fault for letting that happen to their kid, and that's my point.
You're both proving my point here. I say "The specific group of black people, which obviously isn't all of them (not even half of them it seems), that loot and kill people and what not are horrible." and I'm deemed a racist.
I say "Women who say things like 'It's fine to hit a man as a woman' are weird and very problematic" and I'm deemed a misogynist.
This is the entire problem nowadays. You can not say that an oppressed group can still be bad in any way because if you do you're instantly a bigot who wants that group to suffer and hates all of them. I even specifically said that equality applies to "basically" everything and that got misconstrued as well. Obviously equality doesn't apply to things like men hitting women as men are typically stronger than women and thus should go for a gentler approach like trying to simply restrain the woman so as to not be preying on a person weaker than they are. That isn't the point.
My point is that equality should be applied in cases where a woman is doing something that a man would easily be hated for, and people choose not to hold that woman accountable just because women are oppressed.
Infantilizing oppressed groups and treating them as though they're angels is arguably far more prejudiced/bigoted than anything I've ever said or done.

 

[eamonpro]

It's not the kid I'm mad at, he doesn't know any better. It's the parent's fault for letting that happen to their kid, and that's my point.
You're both proving my point here. I say "The specific group of black people, which obviously isn't all of them (not even half of them it seems), that loot and kill people and what not are horrible." and I'm deemed a racist.
I say "Women who say things like 'It's fine to hit a man as a woman' are weird and very problematic" and I'm deemed a misogynist.
This is the entire problem nowadays. You can not say that an oppressed group can still be bad in any way because if you do you're instantly a bigot who wants that group to suffer and hates all of them. I even specifically said that equality applies to "basically" everything and that got misconstrued as well. Obviously equality doesn't apply to things like men hitting women as men are typically stronger than women and thus should go for a gentler approach like trying to simply restrain the woman so as to not be preying on a person weaker than they are. That isn't the point.
My point is that equality should be applied in cases where a woman is doing something that a man would easily be hated for, and people choose not to hold that woman accountable just because women are oppressed.
Infantilizing oppressed groups and treating them as though they're angels is arguably far more prejudiced/bigoted than anything I've ever said or done.

I just said I’m posting to promote understanding, and was pointing out how your WORDING gets to people. Yes, you do have some control over how people react to you. You are now paraphrasing, but I’m saying yes calling them ghetto as fuck or whatever did influence people’s reaction to you. Posting a video with a bogeyman clickbait “here’s a le obese black lady” didn’t predispose people to react well to you. You are still lumping a lot together. “This specific group of black people that’s not even half…. That loots and KILLS or whatever” is a massive generalization, you just don’t realize it.

You went off on logiko for never being willing to be wrong but this post doesn’t speak to you being very calm and understanding.

I don’t think i or logiko has infantilized or treated anyone like an angel here.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

I just said I’m posting to promote understanding, and was pointing out how your WORDING gets to people. Yes, you do have some control over how people react to you.

I don’t think i or logiko has infantilized or treated anyone like an angel here.

 

[Logiko]

They were saying that they have unconscious biases and try to recognize that

In my experience acting like we don’t hold any problematic thoughts or feelings if we consciously disagree with them is foolish.

For example, who is more likely to pass racist legislation: a politician who says that they can never be racist or a politician who says they recognize they can have biases. I’d expect the guy who thinks he can never be racist to not realize possible implications of a policy, while the other guy who recognizes it would be more likely to seek outside perspectives

This might be one of the best post i've seen here.

This is exactly what I'm trying to explain. You did it much better than me. Thank you.


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The reactions on my rethoric here is also one of the reason why I know for a fact that most people on this forum have problem with the understanding of One Piece..

What you are saying very nicely, Oda beautifully portrayed in Fishmen Island.

Making it an amazing demonstration of antiracism. That I think... people completely missed:

While FisherTiger hate human for legitimate reason because of his experience and education, we white people are ALSO racist but for NON legitimate reason, because of our experience and education.

Oda tried to show us the point of view of racialized people to make us understand that biases and hatefull thinking (legitimate or not), comes from EDUCATION and the ENVIRONEMENT.

In other word : the system.

WHile his approach lacked a bit of materialist thinking in targetting precisely the racialization created by the system of "human supremacy". His understanding of systemic conditionning was on point.

 

[eamonpro]

Yes seriously. Did I actually call you a racist or whatever you’re trying to cry about? You asked why people call you that. Did you want people to say “I’m so sorry” or did you want legit tips on communication?

Or did you just want agreement on these two problems and for me to magically make everyone who misunderstAnds you understand you with a snap of my fingers and no change on your part

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

This might be one of the best post i've seen here.

This is exactly what I'm trying to explain. You did it much better than me. Thank you.


---------

The reactions on my rethoric here is also one of the reason why I know for a fact that most people on this forum have problem with the understanding of One Piece..

What you are saying very nicely, Oda beautifully portrayed in Fishmen Island.

Making it an amazing demonstration of antiracism. That I think... people completely missed:

Didn't Fisher Tiger later go on to help human slaves escape despite what humans have done to him and his people before?
If anything this goes against your point.

Yes seriously. Did I actually call you a racist or whatever you’re trying to cry about? You asked why people call you that. Did you want people to say “I’m so sorry” or did you want legit tips on communication

Sure man, whatever. I don't even care anymore

 

[Mathias]

Oda is racist against humans

Didn't Fisher Tiger later go on to help human slaves escape despite what humans have done to him and his people before?
If anything this goes against your point.

I think the fish-man was on his death-bed there

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Oda is racist against humans



I think the fish-man was on his death-bed there

Either way he constantly helped humans despite how humans traditionally treat fishmen
So it's funny that Logiko, the same guy who said he understands why people hate white people and thinks it's okay, is posting that.

 

[eamonpro]

Didn't Fisher Tiger later go on to help human slaves escape despite what humans have done to him and his people before?
If anything this goes against your point.

Sure man, whatever. I don't even care anymore

Jesus Christ man what fucking shadows are you boxing right now because what did I say that was so offensive to you? You asked why people react in a certaiN way, I pointed out some factors that you actually have control over or might be able to understand, you evidently just wanted “I know lol all these people who would react that way are STUPID HAHAHA!”

That video seems fake af too. He slipped that kid 20 to say it, in my reckoning