Controversial General Political Discussion

[Reborn]

History over the past few decades, the left or progressives has always been terrible at organizing. The right always had a set of strong core values, alot of them coinciding with American core values itself. Whether it's pro guns, pro life, Patriotism, nationalism, Anti-immigration, religion etc., right wingers and conservatives tend to support at least majority of these movements at once, allowing them to move as one cohesive unit.

For the left, notice how many separated movements there are. These movements also tend to clash with each other, like how the LGB and feminist movement often clash with the Trans movement. Hell, the Trans movement itself has different factions and infighting. The lack of cohesion is also reflected in the Democratic Party who cant make up their minds and stick to one goal.





People's dislike and/or dismissal of him is almost forum wide...lots of them leftist...



No offense and not downplaying what he did for me, but you're admitting that you are very biased for him because of it. The fact that you try to deem people who disagree with him as automatic right wingers is dangerously closed minded.

True

There could be multiple reasons varying from country to country but I feel we can generalize few of them if not all.

What majority wants

• Most people focus more on jobs, opportunities, safe environment (be it against crime, illegal migration or terrorism or drug trafficking), and have less focus or interest in redistribution of wealth.
• They want affordability - be it housing, health and education but at the same time they care about individual growth in their respective careers. Stable, good income means things are affordable.
• Most people care about their traditional value system be it religious or family norms or cultural ethos
• Most people takes pride in the nation's glory

What right is doing

• they have leadership who knows how to move the crowd
• they highlight issues which really matters to the majority
• they dominate social media and electronic media and knows how to corner the liberals and the left as a threat to nation's identity or values
• they resonate well with the values of the majority and instill national pride. After all, tapping into religion or national pride help unify majority emotionally.
• Populists in nature as well. They promise things which majority really wants like more jobs, less inflation, resolving decades long issues.

What Left is doing wrong

• As you said, lack of organization and internal fault lines.
• There is clear lack of charismatic leadership to move the majority
• Too much focus on identity politics and minority rights which often ends up coming across as over - moralizing and steering away from issues which majority faces in form of lack of jobs and inflation.
• They come across as moral preachy and judgemental. They will appeal to emotions and preach morality and empathy which often ends up coming across as having tendency to have moral superiority complex
• Disconnected with the ground realities and issues which matters to the majority. They talk big but don't follow up with having concrete vision and actionable solutions.
• Labelling the critics or disagreeing voices futher pushes the voters (especially the swing voters) away
• Don't know how to inspire majority or instill passion like nationalism does
• They also often sideline traditional values

Right knows how to resonate well with the sentiments of the majority and what tools or means are necessary for this.

You can say politics is like a chess game.

Right is a seasoned player who knows what moves to make, when to make, and do it.

Comman men are like chess pieces on the board.

Left is a dreamy kid who wants to go big but doesn't know how to move the pieces on the board

 

[Logiko]

True

There could be multiple reasons varying from country to country but I feel we can generalize few of them if not all.

What majority wants

• Most people focus more on jobs, opportunities, safe environment (be it against crime, illegal migration or terrorism or drug trafficking), and have less focus or interest in redistribution of wealth.
• They want affordability - be it housing, health and education but at the same time they care about individual growth in their respective careers. Stable, good income means things are affordable.
• Most people care about their traditional value system be it religious or family norms or cultural ethos
• Most people takes pride in the nation's glory

What right is doing

• they have leadership who knows how to move the crowd
• they highlight issues which really matters to the majority
• they dominate social media and electronic media and knows how to corner the liberals and the left as a threat to nation's identity or values
• they resonate well with the values of the majority and instill national pride. After all, tapping into religion or national pride help unify majority emotionally.
• Populists in nature as well. They promise things which majority really wants like more jobs, less inflation, resolving decades long issues.

What Left is doing wrong

• As you said, lack of organization and internal fault lines.
• There is clear lack of charismatic leadership to move the majority
• Too much focus on identity politics and minority rights which often ends up coming across as over - moralizing and steering away from issues which majority faces in form of lack of jobs and inflation.
• They come across as moral preachy and judgemental. They will appeal to emotions and preach morality and empathy which often ends up coming across as having tendency to have moral superiority complex
• Disconnected with the ground realities and issues which matters to the majority. They talk big but don't follow up with having concrete vision and actionable solutions.
• Labelling the critics or disagreeing voices futher pushes the voters (especially the swing voters) away
• Don't know how to inspire majority or instill passion like nationalism does
• They also often sideline traditional values

Right knows how to resonate well with the sentiments of the majority and what tools or means are necessary for this.

You can say politics is like a chess game.

Right is a seasoned player who knows what moves to make, when to make, and do it.

Comman men are like chess pieces on the board.

Left is a dreamy kid who wants to go big but doesn't know how to move the pieces on the board

I prepared a post to debunk the majority of what you said here, but I wonder if it's really a necessity to post it. And I'm on a lazy phase. So I'll just say this:

While there is one or two true (but incomplete point) . Most of what you said here is either false, lack context or information, lack knowledge about the subject or are simple lies.

 

[Reborn]

I prepared a post to debunk the majority of what you said here, but I wonder if it's really a necessity to post it. And I'm on a lazy phase. So I'll just say this:

While there is one or two true (but incomplete point) . Most of what you said here is either false, lack context or information, lack knowledge about the subject or are simple lies.

And, this one is classic example why Left is losing the ground.

Bro spend too much time in his echo chambers and feeding on to the leftist narrative that he lost track of ground realities.

Go and read your daily dose of materialistic beliefs....

 

[Blax Blah]

Reborn is just making stuff up when it comes to the left's issues, there is only one thing he got right, lack of organization, but I imagjne that organization he thinks should be there is some political party, when it should actually be unions


And @Uncle Van I didn't assume people who dislike Logiko are right wingers, otherwise why would I have said "It is what it is" to zenos saying "What about leftists who dislike him?", and why would I have asked "what leftists here dislike him though"?


I just haven't seen leftists here dislike Logiko and Nameless, Reborn, and Ravager and Herrera just hate on him, all right wingers

People's dislike and/or dismissal of him is almost forum wide...lots of them leftist...

Maybe for different reasons, here he is disliked for politics, there he is disliked for liking Carrot, it isn't the same thing

You want the left, but not when it's leftist.. in other words, you want the right.

Exactly, Reborn just makes that stuff up, not based in any understanding of the left

I agree that he seems to have a halo effect bias toward me which can be dangerous (and I keep telling you @Blax Blah , I'm really thankfull to see that I'm heard here, but I'm just a dumb leftist with a lot of determination, I'm not a goat or anything lol ).. but that's not what he said.

First off,

Yes what Reborn and Uncle Van said I'm doing is not what I'm doing, because otherwise my replies to zenos make no sense



Second off,

Yeah I have a halo effect towards you it is what it is, but I'm aware of it so I'm pretty immune, and we disagree on a lot, like about God

 

[Reborn]

Reborn is just making stuff up when it comes to the left's issues, there is only one thing he got right, lack of organization, but I imagjne that organization he thinks should be there is some political party, when it should actually be unions


And @Uncle Van I didn't assume people who dislike Logiko are right wingers, otherwise why would I have said "It is what it is" to zenos saying "What about leftists who dislike him?", and why would I have asked "what leftists here dislike him though"?


I just haven't seen leftists here dislike Logiko and Nameless, Reborn, and Ravager and Herrera just hate on him, all right wingers






Maybe for different reasons, here he is disliked for politics, there he is disliked for liking Carrot, it isn't the same thing





Exactly, Reborn just makes that stuff up, not based in any understanding of the left






First off,

Yes what Reborn and Uncle Van said I'm doing is not what I'm doing, because otherwise my replies to zenos make no sense



Second off,

Yeah I have a halo effect towards you it is what it is, but I'm aware of it so I'm pretty immune, and we disagree on a lot, like about God

There is no making up the issues

You people simply don't read the fucking newspapers it seems

 

[Blax Blah]

There is no making up the issues

You people simply don't read the fucking newspapers it seems

No, it's that you haven't read or watched leftist political theory, so you don't understand leftism, assuming you aren't trolling

 

[Reborn]

No, it's that you haven't read or watched leftist political theory, so you don't understand leftism, assuming you aren't trolling

Either you didn't understand the original post or you seriously need to stop poking your nose.

My post was regarding what's happening across the world which is leading to the rise of rightist.


It has nothing to do with political theory....

For a change, start reading newspapers to see editorials on what's happening in the world

 

[Blax Blah]

Either you didn't understand the original post or you seriously need to stop poking your nose.

My post was regarding what's happening across the world which is leading to the rise of rightist.


It has nothing to do with political theory....

For a change, start reading newspapers to see editorials on what's happening in the world

This is gaslighting because I was talking about your list of things the left is doing wrong, and I disagree with all of them except one, build organizations, but those organizations should be unions, not a party



I think you just watch right-wing videos about why the left sucks and you say that here



Political theory is what the left bases itself on so yeah it does have to do with political theory, look up websites like marxists.org, libcom, huge archives of leftist political theory

 

[Reborn]

This is gaslighting because I was talking about your list of things the left is doing wrong, and I disagree with all of them except one, build organizations, but those organizations should be unions, not a party



I think you just watch right-wing videos about why the left sucks and you say that here



Political theory is what the left bases itself on so yeah it does have to do with political theory, look up websites like marxists.org, libcom, huge archives of leftist political theory

And, they are doing those things.

And, I don't need to watch rightist videos. I read newspapers daily which features opinions from all sorts of people and then make my opinions.

And, it seems it's you who fed yourself Leftist echo chambers to fill your mind with.

So, go cry somewhere else.

And, if Logiko helped you then good for him and for you. Appreciate his help but....

Spare me this goat BS

 

[Blax Blah]

Like this quote:


"The Utopists won the battle. They proved that they were the really practical people, and that those who pretended to be practical were imbeciles.




And the only regret expressed now by all who know the Russian peasantry is, that too many concessions were made to those practical imbeciles and narrow-minded egotists: that the advice of the left wing of the unpractical camp was not followed in full. "



This is not a random quote online by some leftist in a speech, this is from the writing Are We Good Enough by Petr Kropotkin from 1888


https://libcom.org/article/are-we-good-enough-peter-kropotkin



[automerge]1759837354[/automerge]

And, they are doing those things.

And, I don't need to watch rightist videos. I read newspapers daily which features opinions from all sorts of people and then make my opinions.

And, it seems it's you who fed yourself Leftist echo chambers to fill your mind with.

So, go cry somewhere else.

And, if Logiko helped you then good for him and for you. Appreciate his help but....

Spare me this goat BS

You're the one constantly crying about Logiko, I don't talk about disliking anyone and I don't talk about hating the right, you are just gaslighting

 

[Reborn]

Like this quote:


"The Utopists won the battle. They proved that they were the really practical people, and that those who pretended to be practical were imbeciles.




And the only regret expressed now by all who know the Russian peasantry is, that too many concessions were made to those practical imbeciles and narrow-minded egotists: that the advice of the left wing of the unpractical camp was not followed in full. "



This is not a random quote online by some leftist in a speech, this is from the writing Are We Good Enough by Petr Kropotkin from 1888

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-are-we-good-enough
[automerge]1759837354[/automerge]



You're the one constantly crying about Logiko, I don't talk about disliking anyone and I don't talk about hating the right, you are just gaslighting

So why you are having an issue if I am dismissing Logiko's opinion?


It's between me and Logiko

Why you have to butt in?

If you can't take anyone dismissing Logiko and your simping towards him, then put me on ignore.

 

[Blax Blah]

So why you are having an issue if I am dismissing Logiko's opinion?


It's between me and Logiko

Why you have to butt in?

If you can't take anyone dismissing Logiko and your simping towards him, then put me on ignore.

Well this is what I said at the beginning:


"You can tell Wogiko is the GOAT of this forum because right wingers keep hating on him the most and trying to dismiss him "

 

[Reborn]

Well this is what I said at the beginning:


"You can tell Wogiko is the GOAT of this forum because right wingers keep hating on him the most and trying to dismiss him "

And, you quoted me saying that because I got the notification of you quoting me.


So, don't try to act smart.

You can call him goat or wogiko or whatever you like... it's your business.

And, if I am dismissing his opinion then it's my buisness.

Don't poke your nose in mine as I don't do it in yours

 

[Blax Blah]

And, you quoted me saying that because I got the notification of you quoting me.


So, don't try to act smart.

You can call him goat or wogiko or whatever you like... it's your business.

And, if I am dismissing his opinion then it's my buisness.

Don't poke your nose in mine as I don't do it in yours

Yeah but you just happened to be the person doing it at the time

 

[Logiko]

And, this one is classic example why Left is losing the ground.

Bro spend too much time in his echo chambers and feeding on to the leftist narrative that he lost track of ground realities.

Go and read your daily dose of materialistic beliefs....

Yeah you are right, I can't understand what it means to struggle in life or to live in poverty, I forgot that the last decade of my life is just an illusion

I just haven't seen leftists here dislike Logiko and Nameless, Reborn, and Ravager and Herrera just hate on him, all right wingers

Well, to be fair, I fight a lot with Toby as I disagree with him a lot even tho I consider him an ally. But this is nothing compared to the hate coming from rightist here, you are right

there he is disliked for liking Carrot, it isn't the same thing

Also because I'm a pain in the ass to people who love to hate on One Piece

Second off,

Yeah I have a halo effect towards you it is what it is, but I'm aware of it so I'm pretty immune, and we disagree on a lot, like about God

Well. If you say so. But I don't know how to receive a compliment without undermining it.. I'm like Chopper in real life for real. I'm not even joking.

You people simply don't read the fucking newspapers it seems

This may be part of your problem here

I read newspapers daily which features opinions from all sorts of people

Listening to both side will make you only assimilate the most conservatist one.

This is a basic leftist principle. We are not perfect and not immune to biases. We are literally wired to assimilate the information that we agree with and the right (as a political spectrum) is MAINLY existing through this principle.

Leftism is, by defaut, a counter intuitive ideology in an idealist system.. So if you listen to "both sides" without critical thinking or political recoil, you will always have a greater chance to assimilate more the rightist rethoric than the leftist one.

Leftism is about understanding who we are as human and understanding the system that shape ou mind and ideology.

If you think you are better than you own material condition of existence and can override them on your own by the strenght of your spirit, you are nothing more than an idealist, which is fine aas long as you keep a big ethical process in your thinking, as idealists have a much greater chance to end up rightists and conservatist (and thus, harmfull) as I explained to Van earlier.

So, don't try to act smart.

You can call him goat or wogiko or whatever you like... it's your business.

Damn, I'm a trigger subject

 

[Reborn]

Yeah you are right, I can't understand what it means to struggle in life or to live in poverty, I forgot that the last decade of my life is just an illusion




Well, to be fair, I fight a lot with Toby as I disagree with him a lot even tho I consider him an ally. But this is nothing compared to the hate coming from rightist here, you are right





Also because I'm a pain in the ass to people who love to hate on One Piece





Well. If you say so. But I don't know how to receive a compliment without undermining it.. I'm like Chopper in real life for real. I'm not even joking.

This may be part of your problem here



Listening to both side will make you only assimilate the most conservatist one.

This is a basic leftist principle. We are not perfect and not immune to biases. We are literally wired to assimilate the information that we agree with and the right (as a political spectrum) is MAINLY existing through this principle.

Leftism is, by defaut, a counter intuitive ideology in an idealist system.. So if you listen to "both sides" without critical thinking or political recoil, you will always have a greater chance to assimilate more the rightist rethoric than the leftist one.

Leftism is about understanding who we are as human and understanding the system that shape ou mind and ideology.

If you think you are better than you own material condition of existence and can override them on your own by the strenght of your spirit, you are nothing more than an idealist, and idealist have a much greater chance to end up rightist and conservatist as I explained to Van earlier.



Damn, I'm a trigger subject

Nah I am good with reading newspapers. It helps me to know both sides and frame opinions in more constructive ways than just to stick with one frame of mind.

 

[Blax Blah]

Yeah you are right, I can't understand what it means to struggle in life or to live in poverty, I forgot that the last decade of my life is just an illusion




Well, to be fair, I fight a lot with Toby as I disagree with him a lot even tho I consider him an ally. But this is nothing compared to the hate coming from rightist here, you are right





Also because I'm a pain in the ass to people who love to hate on One Piece





Well. If you say so. But I don't know how to receive a compliment without undermining it.. I'm like Chopper in real life for real. I'm not even joking.

This may be part of your problem here



Listening to both side will make you only assimilate the most conservatist one.

This is a basic leftist principle. We are not perfect and not immune to biases. We are literally wired to assimilate the information that we agree with and the right (as a political spectrum) is MAINLY existing through this principle.

Leftism is, by defaut, a counter intuitive ideology in an idealist system.. So if you listen to "both sides" without critical thinking or political recoil, you will always have a greater chance to assimilate more the rightist rethoric than the leftist one.

Leftism is about understanding who we are as human and understanding the system that shape ou mind and ideology.

If you think you are better than you own material condition of existence and can override them on your own by the strenght of your spirit, you are nothing more than an idealist, which is fine aas long as you keep a big ethical process in your thinking, as idealists have a much greater chance to end up rightists and conservatist (and thus, harmfull) as I explained to Van earlier.



Damn, I'm a trigger subject

When I listen to right wing political videos I just keep debunking them as I'm hearing their arguments and that's not what I am looking for when I want to listen to something

 

[Logiko]

Nah I am good with reading newspapers. It helps me to know both sides and frame opinions in more constructive ways than just to stick with one frame of mind.

So you are doing exactly what I explained:

You think that you can protect yourself, on your own, without political awareness from reactionnary rethorics, just with the simple help of your own spirit and determination.

When I listen to right wing political videos I just keep debunking them as I'm hearing their arguments and that's not what I am looking for when I want to listen to something

Yes, but you have a political awereness and a good ethic basis that can protect you from the biases that comes with reactionnary rethorics. Which is cool.

People like Reborn, not so much.

 

[Reborn]

So you are doing exactly what I explained:

You think that you can protect yourself, on your own, without political awareness from reactionnary rethorics, just with the simple help of your own spirit and determination.



Yes, but you have a political awereness and a good ethic basis that can protect you from the biases that comes with reactionnary rethorics. Which is cool.

People like Reborn, not so much.

Sure whatever makes you sleep better at night

 

[Logiko]

Sure whatever makes you sleep better at night