Powers & Abilities How far can current Maki push Toji?

[Light D Lamperouge]

Strength wise - Gege already stated in fanbook that Maki will obtain Toji’s level of physical gift after seeing Toji but she would have to lose something in exchange, and if youre too blinded by Toji to see that it has literally happened in the story then you are just a fanboy

Answer my question. Do you think kid Toji is physically as strong as adult Toji? Do you think 16 yo Toji is physically as strong as Adult Toji? Go on.

Intelligence - this argument is quite flimsy because it is a 1v1 with no prep and literally all Toji did was pick off a weakened Gojo, even non awakened healthy Gojo would wash Toji.

Gojo, the strongest guy around, beating Toji is not an argument against Toji lmao. Gojo would flick Maki and make her meet her sister. Toji developed an entire plan to tire out Gojo.

Intelligence sure didnt help Naoya or Ogi or Jinichi or the entire Zenin clan survive against Maki

Because they were outclassed by her, but Toji isn't. Like these are basic things. Come on. Toji even outclasses her here, not the opposite. Toji is much more intelligent than Maki. He figured out Geto's tech immediately, figured out Onna's ability within her domain, figured out how to battle Gojo even with limitless. He even knew why he retained his individuality when brought back by Ogami. Maki is a dodo brain in comparison.

Experience - Maki has literally trained her entire life with the biggest nerf in JJK and became Semi-Grade 1 while Toji lazied his ass around like a bum while in the Zenin family and only killed sorcerers who are arguably below the likes of Ogi, Jinichi, Naoya, or not even a fraction of the full might of the Zenin clan

Toji was lazing around lmfao? You should have just said you don't read the manga. Toji was thrown to the same chamber Maki and Mai were as a child. Toji always had to train extra to not get killed. And Toji has experienced many many many more death battles in his life. He by far outclasses Maki lmfao.

 

[Ven437]

Answer my question. Do you think kid Toji is physically as strong as adult Toji? Do you think 16 yo Toji is physically as strong as Adult Toji? Go on.




Gojo, the strongest guy around, beating Toji is not an argument against Toji lmao. Gojo would flick Maki and make her meet her sister. Toji developed an entire plan to tire out Gojo.


Because they were outclassed by her, but Toji isn't. Like these are basic things. Come on. Toji even outclasses her here, not the opposite. Toji is much more intelligent than Maki. He figured out Geto's tech immediately, figured out Onna's ability within her domain, figured out how to battle Gojo even with limitless. He even knew why he retained his individuality when brought back by Ogami. Maki is a dodo brain in comparison.



Toji was lazing around lmfao? You should have just said you don't read the manga. Toji was thrown to the same chamber Maki and Mai were as a child. Toji always had to train extra to not get killed. And Toji has experienced many many many more death battles in his life. He by far outclasses Maki lmfao.

So now a fan knows better than the mangaka himself by applying IRL logic to a fictional series while disregarding the fact that Maki will reach Toji’s level of physical gift after seeing him once and losing something in exchange

Denies that Maki = Toji despite the obvious parallels being thrown how Maki instills the same fear as Toji how both can wipe out the clan

Denies how there is one entire chapter dedicated to literally a Toji fanboy denying Maki = Toji and then getting washed for it

You might as well change your avatar to Naoya because that is how you are right now

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

So now a fan knows better than the mangaka himself by applying IRL logic to a fictional series while disregarding that Maki will reach Toji’s level of physical gift after seeing him and losing something in exchange

Denies that Maki = Toji despite the obvious parallels being thrown how Maki instills the same fear as Toji how both can wipe out the clan

Denies how there is one entire chapter dedicated to literally a Toji fanboy denying Maki = Toji and then getting washed for it

You might as well change your avatar to Naoya because that is how you are right now

I accept your concession.

 

[Ven437]

I accept your concession.

Stay mad that Gege debunks your headcanons mate :cheers:

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

Stay mad that Gege debunks your headcanons mate :cheers:

But I am not mad, nor is Gege debunking anything I've said, because what I've said is factual. I am sorry to burst your bubble, but, Maki is plainly inferior. She loses to Toji.

 

[ConquistadoR]

Intelligence - headcanon Toji was an idiot who thought he could beat an awakened Gojo and thought all was good

Experience - Maki has literally trained her entire life with the biggest nerf in JJK and became Semi-Grade 1 while Toji lazied his ass around like a bum while in the Zenin family and only killed sorcerers who are arguably below the likes of Ogi, Jinichi, Naoya, or not even a fraction of the full might of the Zenin clan

LMAO what? He slowly wore down Gojo and then used the perfect weapon, the Inverted spear of Heaven, to kill him at the perfect time when he was weak. Toji trained his entire life with the same nerf as well. A young Gojo and Geto would eat the entire Zenin clan and its overrated fodders for breakfast. They lost to Toji.

Maki wouldn't have had access to all the knowledge an adult Toji had. Maki wouldn't have the experience that adult Toji had accumulated over several years of making a name for himself as a Sorcerer killer. All these matter when you literally have to guess and deduce a lot of stuff. JJK's fights are not simple A>B>C logic like One Piece lmao.

Maki gets thoroughly overwhelmed and beaten by Adult Toji due to lack of that. Can she physically match him? To some extent yes. Doesn't mean she's equal to him.

And all the parallels Gege is inserting in the manga only shows that Maki is becoming Toji. In a series where the fights involve more brainstorming and deduction than actual combat and where the lack of experience and knowledge will definitely get you killed, Maki absolutely loses to Adult Toji.

 

[Ven437]

Man I wish knowledge and experience was as relevant in other JJK matchups as Toji vs Maki because these are literally the only headcanon crutches that Toji fans can rely on, not feats or portrayal in a shonen series where high school kids often beat more seasoned experienced fighters

LMAO what? He slowly wore down Gojo and then used the perfect weapon, the Inverted spear of Heaven, to kill him at the perfect time when he was weak. Toji trained his entire life with the same nerf as well. A young Gojo and Geto would eat the entire Zenin clan and its overrated fodders for breakfast. They lost to Toji.

Maki wouldn't have had access to all the knowledge an adult Toji had. Maki wouldn't have the experience that adult Toji had accumulated over several years of making a name for himself as a Sorcerer killer. All these matter when you literally have to guess and deduce a lot of stuff. JJK's fights are not simple A>B>C logic like One Piece lmao.

Maki gets thoroughly overwhelmed and beaten by Adult Toji due to lack of that. Can she physically match him? To some extent yes. Doesn't mean she's equal to him.

And all the parallels Gege is inserting in the manga only shows that Maki is becoming Toji. In a series where the fights involve more brainstorming and deduction than actual combat and where the lack of experience and knowledge will definitely get you killed, Maki absolutely loses to Adult Toji.

No, Ogi is literally reminded of Toji when he sees Maki, the same fear

Ranta says Maki is the same as Toji

Maki washes Naoya a Toji fanboy who venehemently denies Maki = Toji

Gege says that Maki will reach Toji lvl of physical gift when she loses something in exchange in fanbook

Only Toji fans are blind when Gege is literally making Maki as the second coming of Toji in the current arc and they reject this truth

 

[ConquistadoR]

No, Ogi is literally reminded of Toji when he sees Maki, the same fear

Ranta says Maki is the same as Toji

Maki washes Naoya a Toji fanboy who venehemently denies Maki = Toji

Gege says that Maki will reach Toji lvl of physical gift when she loses something in exchange in fanbook

Only Toji fans are blind when Gege is literally making Maki as the second coming of Toji in the current arc and they reject this truth

Nobody denies that lmao. Maki is the second coming of Toji. She just does not possess his experience and knowledge and therefore she gets washed. If I wanna go down the rabbit hole, Toji has a huge cache of weapons in that cursed spirit pet of his. What's Maki gonna do about it huh?

Man I wish knowledge and experience was as relevant in other JJK matchups as Toji vs Maki because these are literally the only headcanon crutches that Toji fans can rely on, not feats or portrayal in a shonen series where high school kids often beat more seasoned experienced

Toji feats > Maki feats.

 

[Ven437]

Nobody denies that lmao. Maki is the second coming of Toji. She just does not possess his experience and knowledge and therefore she gets washed. If I wanna go down the rabbit hole, Toji has a huge cache of weapons in that cursed spirit pet of his. What's Maki gonna do about it huh?


Toji feats > Maki feats.

Experience and knowledge mean jack in a manga series where two first years of jujutsu high beat a vastly more experienced and knowledgeable seasoned cursed user together and one of them outmaneuvers the same person you're talking about

What's inverted spear his best tool to date gonna do against Maki? She doesnt use CE so don't mean shit to her. Chains cant hurt her. CE tools are meant for CE users they arent going to do jack to a body of steel like Maki's. The only things strong enough to hurt each other are themselves because any CE tool in his arsenal <<< steel bodies

You want to talk about feats? Toji needed the Playful cloud to jump high enough and get to Dagon while Maki could jump even higher without a spring for herself

 

[ConquistadoR]

You want to talk about feats? Toji needed the Playful cloud to jump high enough and get to Dagon while Maki could jump even higher without a spring for herself

What does playful cloud gotta do with jumping ability lmaooo he used that move to cut into Dagon.

Exorcising Dagon almost on his own inside his own.
Killing young Gojo and Geto, two of the strongest sorcerors ever to exist.

Both of these shit on whatever Maki has done.

What's inverted spear his best tool to date gonna do against Maki? She doesnt use CE so don't mean shit to her. Chains cant hurt her. CE tools are meant for CE users they arent going to do jack to a body of steel like Maki's. The only things strong enough to hurt each other are themselves because any CE tool in his arsenal <<< steel bodies

And these are just some of the tools he had in his inventory. He had so much more shit which is why Geto took in that cursed spirit.

Experience and knowledge mean jack in a manga series where two first years of jujutsu high beat a vastly more experienced and knowledgeable seasoned cursed user together and one of them outmaneuvers the same person you're talking about

Lmao Megumi was barely surviving against Toji. And that's not even what I meant by experience and knowledge - none of them ever figured out what Toji's HR is or why is he even alive.

We were clearly shown how experience, knowledge and power mattered over sheer strength when Toji made not one but two special grade sorcerors look like dead fools and was only beaten later because of his pride. Recency bias is over the charts when it comes to JJK I guess.

 

[Ven437]

What does playful cloud gotta do with jumping ability lmaooo he used that move to cut into Dagon.

Dagon jumps to buy time for his domain but is stopped by Naobito.

Toji couldnt jump that high without Playful cloud.

Plain and simple.

You wanna go by feats, Maki already has two better physical feats than Toji: jumping higher and reacting to supersonic speeds.

Exorcising Dagon almost on his own inside his own.

Killing young Gojo and Geto, two of the strongest sorcerors ever to exist.[/QUOTE]

*killing young Gojo with prep.

Young Geto cant gauntlet through the entire Zenin clan.

And these are just some of the tools he had in his inventory. He had so much more shit which is why Geto took in that cursed spirit.

Which we will never see so pointless to use hypotheticals to extrapolate.

Lmao Megumi was barely surviving against Toji. And that's not even what I meant by experience and knowledge - none of them ever figured out what Toji's HR is or why is he even alive.

Megumi was smart enough to figure out Toji was a perfect Maki. Megumi outmaneuvered Toji. By your standards Toji shouldve washed Megumi instead of getting stalled by rabbits and fooled into a pithole. JJK is a shonen, younger people are almost always going to match or surpass the adults at later points during the story and were already near endgame with Maki unlocking her greatest power up to date.

We were clearly shown how experience, knowledge and power mattered over sheer strength when Toji made not one but two special grade sorcerors look like dead fools and was only beaten later because of his pride. Recency bias is over the charts when it comes to JJK I guess.

No Toji fanboyism blinds the truth to some readers who are vehement of their Toji being classed with a 16 yr old girl who unlocked the same gift as him and is paralled to him in obvious ways.

Gege literally inserted a Toji fanboy denying Maki = Toji and he got washed for it, humiliated, and disgraced by Maki at the very end while she looked bored. Gege couldnt be have made a more clear messsage to those who doubt Maki = Toji. [/QUOTE]

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

Recent thoughts?

 

[ConquistadoR]

Nobody denies that lmao. Maki is the second coming of Toji. She just does not possess his experience and knowledge and therefore she gets washed. If I wanna go down the rabbit hole, Toji has a huge cache of weapons in that cursed spirit pet of his. What's Maki gonna do about it huh?


Toji feats > Maki feats.

Well well well...

 

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

i feel like i was lied to

 

[NikaInParis]

Katana guy > Toji

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

Well would you look at that. Everything I've said was factual. Maki plainly admitted inferiority to Toji

Spoiler

Maki still has to grow to reach Toji's level of physique.

^
Confirmed by Maki by saying Toji would have been able to reach that height and handle everything at that speed and Naoya stating he should be overwhelming her due to their previous experience.

Plus Toji is more experienced, smarter, more skillful, and an overall better combatant.

^ Confirmed by Maki by saying Toji would have thrown that katana without hesitation and been able to handle everything at top speed, and being able to see something only Toji would be able to see.

What Maki just unlocked Toji has had his entire life. Honed throughout the entirety of his life.

^ Confirmed by Maki stating that there was something only Toji was able to see.

Spoiler

Toji>Maki. He'd win a fight against her. He's smarter, more experienced and more skillful.

Toji has better combat skills, more acute senses, a larger variety of weapons, more experience, and is also a better combatant, and seems smarter, combat-wise. I would think he's still physically stronger too.

^ Confirmed by everyone.


@Ven437 are you ready to admit that you were utterly and horribly wrong?

 

[Ven437]

Well would you look at that. Everything I've said was factual. Maki plainly admitted inferiority to Toji

I admit that Maki was inferior to Toji pre-196 but you're twisting facts.

Spoiler

^
Confirmed by Maki by saying Toji would have been able to reach that height and handle everything at that speed and Naoya stating he should be overwhelming her due to their previous experience.

Mindset, not physical gift problem. Maki didn't suddenly gain an increase in physical stats, she's still the same.

^ Confirmed by Maki by saying Toji would have thrown that katana without hesitation and been able to handle everything at top speed, and being able to see something only Toji would be able to see.

Mindset problem, she was content with being the same as everyone else which limited her full potential. She had the Megumi problem and just never bothered to go beyond her comfort zone.

^ Confirmed by Maki stating that there was something only Toji was able to see.

Spoiler

Mindset problem, Maki was always able to see those things but she just didn't focus on it until now. She didn't just gain a new Sharingan.

^ Confirmed by everyone.

Smarter - not the difference.

More experienced - part of the problem, but Toji gained his epiphany through this whereas Maki got it taught to her via Sumo time chamber.

Skill - not the problem.

Mindset - Problem.

Toji has better combat skills, more acute senses, a larger variety of weapons, more experience, and is also a better combatant, and seems smarter, combat-wise. I would think he's still physically stronger too.

None of that was EVER the issue. The issue was ALWAYS the mindset, the "freedom." Maki didn't get stronger or gained new weapon skills, she just gained a newfound mentality, an epiphany. They both have the same level of physical strength, that was already confirmed by fanbook and official statements too.

@Ven437 are you ready to admit that you were utterly and horribly wrong?

I was wrong in that Maki = Toji but you were also wrong too. The issue is not skill, strength, combat experience, etc. The issue is mindset, daring to push yourself, to focus and see more than just curses. It was made very clear that is what Ch. 196-197 basically try to point out to Maki. She had Sumo guy teach her exactly just that.

Even now Naoya now sees Toji in Maki, which means she is now at his level or very very close to it. The concept of freedom and selfishness has always been the biggest "power-up" in JJK. Megumi, Gojo, Sukuna all experienced it. Now Maki gained that mindset too, not by having "years of experience" or more physically stronger.

 

[Light D Lamperouge]

I admit that Maki was inferior to Toji

Good.

Mindset, not physical gift problem. Maki didn't suddenly gain an increase in physical stats, she's still the same.

Mindset problem, she was content with being the same as everyone else which limited her full potential. She had the Megumi problem and just never bothered to go beyond her comfort zone.

LMAO stop the cap and the drivel. Maki clearly states she couldn't react to those speeds and reach those heights, with Naoya further emphasizing it. Toji was clearly better. She can now move faster, react quicker, reach higher heights. She clearly got boosted and was able to tap into the full power of the heavenly restriction, which she previously was unable to do, but Toji was, hence he was superior.

Mindset problem, Maki was always able to see those things but she just didn't focus on it until now. She didn't just gain a new Sharingan.

Stop. She clearly says she couldn't see before this. Toji could, i.e he had more refined and acute senses, which was the argument I was making.

Smarter - not the difference.

The difference. As far as we know Toji learned this on his own, not being taught by anyone.

More experienced - part of the problem, but Toji gained his epiphany through this whereas Maki got it taught to her via Sumo time chamber.

Yes which is what I had said. Toji thanks to his experience was better.

Skill - not the problem.

Clearly is. She did not have as refined and skillful senses as Toji. Nor the combat skills, the katana thing.

None of that was EVER the issue. The issue was ALWAYS the mindset, the "freedom." Maki didn't get stronger or gained new weapon skills, she just gained a newfound mentality, an epiphany. They both have the same level of physical strength, that was already confirmed by fanbook and official statements too.

The chapter clearly has Maki admitting plain inferiority in multiple areas to Toji. The same areas I said she is inferior to. There's no way to twist that. She did not operate on the same level as Toji, plainly and clearly stated by Maki herself. There's no way to spin this around when it comes straight from the horse's mouth.

I was wrong in that Maki = Toji

Correct.

. Now Maki gained that mindset too, not by having "years of experience" or more physically stronger.

Maki gained it by being taught. Had she not been taught, the only other solution would be to gain it herself through experience in battles.

I've addressed the other drivel. Maki was clearly and plainly inferior to Toji and inferior in the precise areas I've said she would be. There's no need to continue this any longer. You've admitted you were wrong, the chapter clearly shows Maki inferior, there's nothing left here for me to argue.

 

[MonsterKaido]

She is half way there no doubt. Depending on future powerup she can be very close to him

 

[Ven437]

LMAO stop the cap and the drivel. Maki clearly states she couldn't react to those speeds and reach those heights, with Naoya further emphasizing it. Toji was clearly better. She can now move faster, react quicker, reach higher heights. She clearly got boosted and was able to tap into the full power of the heavenly restriction, which she previously was unable to do, but Toji was, hence he was superior.

Daido says “she broke out of her shell,” preview says she got an “epiphany.” Mindset problem not skill problem.

Stop. She clearly says she couldn't see before this. Toji could, i.e he had more refined and acute senses, which was the argument I was making.

Where did she say she couldn’t see air density and temperature before sumo? She just didn’t care about it more than seeing curses. She phased that out in favor of seeing curses which was all she cared about before.

The difference. As far as we know Toji learned this on his own, not being taught by anyone.

Great logic, so awakened Gojo is smarter than the Toji who decided not to run away.

Clearly is. She did not have as refined and skillful senses as Toji. Nor the combat skills, the katana thing.

And then after: “It isn’t enough to be like everyone else” - mentality problem. The fact that she thought up of those things alone means that it was a mental block not a skill block.

The chapter clearly has Maki admitting plain inferiority in multiple areas to Toji. The same areas I said she is inferior to. There's no way to twist that. She did not operate on the same level as Toji, plainly and clearly stated by Maki herself. There's no way to spin this around when it comes straight from the horse's mouth.

Smarts - not the difference. Don’t even know where this is coming from.

Skills - not the difference. She can mid jump in air after her epiphany whereas Toji needed to pole vault to reach Dagon.

Strength - not the difference, already debunked by official statements.

I've addressed the other drivel. Maki was clearly and plainly inferior to Toji and inferior in the precise areas I've said she would be. There's no need to continue this any longer. You've admitted you were wrong, the chapter clearly shows Maki inferior, there's nothing left here for me to argue.

She was inferior before in terms of mindset which is what JJK is all about from Megumi to Sukuna, which did make her inferior to Toji - not anymore. Naoya the No. 1 Toji fanboy literally sees Toji in her now. She’s closed that gap now and is very close to him if not equal.