Kingdom General Discussion

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
Wang Jian (Ousen) - Was the top general in the most powerful state of the time (Qin)
Li Mu (Riboku) - The most impressive of the 4, the only one who was part of a state that was at it's weakest but still held it down.
Lian Po (Renpa) - Was the top general when Zhao was at it's peak as a whole
Bai Ki (Hakuki) - Was the top general when Qin was at the top.
Bro wtf? This is horribly wrong.

Ousen was credited with defeating Zhao and Chu entirely. Zhao was viewed by the other states as being completely invincible when LiMu was active. Hakuki captured the capital of Chu and was completely undefeated over his career. And I haven’t even listed most of their achievements, these are just the basics.

No clue why you snubbed the four generals regarded as being the greatest of the warring states era by the majority of Chinese historians, to being weaker than Gakuki and Ouki, that’s some gymnastics right there.
 
Bro wtf? This is horribly wrong.

Ousen was credited with defeating Zhao and Chu entirely. Zhao was viewed by the other states as being completely invincible when LiMu was active. Hakuki captured the capital of Chu and was completely undefeated over his career. And I haven’t even listed most of their achievements, these are just the basics.

No clue why you snubbed the four generals regarded as being the greatest of the warring states era by the majority of Chinese historians, to being weaker than Gakuki and Ouki, that’s some gymnastics right there.
I didn't know saying somebody had a better military accomplishment than them equates to snubbing them. Lol. It's crazy you say that to me in regards to Ousen & Riboku, considering how much I've hyped up their historical accomplishments. I mean everything I said in that part of the post you quoted is facts tho... so not sure what you mean that's horribly wrong. You can look into the military reforms and the civil reforms that were made by the likes of King Sho to build the Qin into a powerhouse it became.. and what it was prior to him coming into the throne.

I simply explained why Gakuki is held in high regard. Then said it can be viewed as the greatest military achievement of that era, and that Hara is viewing it as such... Which is also why:
Emperor Gouzu (Liu Bang), more credible than any "Chinese historian" that you might be referring, held Gakuki above Hakuki/WangJian/etc.
Zhuge Liang, more credible than any "chinese historian" that you might be referring to, held Gakuki as the "Military God" as well, over Wang Jain/Bai Qi/etc.


What crazy is people who usually hype up these four, end up snubbing the other generals over their times as well. Wang He gets snubbed all the time, with Hakuki getting the main credit for Changping, for simply slaughtering 400k worth of soldiers who had surrendered.
Ousen credited for defeating Zhao & Chu entirely:

As the leading commander, yes. But if you mean he's credited being the one main one who was responsible for the fall of Zhao & Chu, then no. That is far from the case when you get into historical details. Zhao's sole fall, was due to Qin's political maneuvering of the Zhao court. Where as prior to that Riboku along with Shibashou (not Riboku alone), were making it impossible for Ousen & Yotanwa (the two main generals in that final invasion) to take down Zhao.. Even after Zhao had been hit by a devastating earthquake + a famine.

Then with Chu..It's argued that Shin & Mouten would've conquered it themselves, if you remove Shouheikun's betrayal, and that's with them having 1/3rd of the firepower Ousen had in his invasion. Hell people trash on Li Xin (Shin), over saying 200k instead of going with 600k like Ousen wanted, yet ignore the fact him & mouten were successful, until the SHK betrayal, which blindsided them. That big L against Kouen happened due to SHK's betrayal. If Li Xin & Mouten were good to tearing it up with just 200k, then it's only a given that Ousen would be able to do so with 600k. And even then Meng Wu (Moubu) is given huge credit for the fall of Chu.

Only a gross oversimplification of historical facts results in = Ousen defeated Zhao & Chu entirely.. like nah bruh.


Hakuki & Chu capital:
This is a great feat, not gonna see me or anyone else saying it's not. Only issue is ignoring the events that led to that happening.


Riboku: Yea not sure why you'd even mention him there considering my tons of posts about his historical greatness and it's usage in the manga.


History is simply about views. Hara, holds the fact that Gakuki took a state that was on the brink of destruction, and turned it into a military powerhouse, then masterminded a coalition, then even after that coalition slowly dissolved he almost annihilated the Qi, before falling trap into monarch politics just like Riboku did. Qi at that time being arguably the most powerful state. The man conquered 70+ plus cities in the span of few months. While also upholding morals like no raiding or whatever. Then follow that shit up by the fact that once he got removed from the military head position by the new Yan King, Qi was able to bounce back and take a fuck ton of the land Yan had taken from Qi. He views this being superior to anything the others accomplished and did. That's not him snubbing them.. it's acknowledging Yue Yi, who doesn't get a whole lot of acknowledgement.


So there's no snubbing going on here. There's simply the acknowledgement of Gakuki's accomplishments and explaining how he can be viewed the way he is by Hara in the KINGDOM manga. Simply because he's less renowned in the MODERN TIMES and less talked about in the later history, doesn't mean he can't be greater than them. It'd simply mean he's overlooked.


As to if I view him greater than them, idk, I don't really care much about rankings of generals in history, that shit is weird to me, since too many factors come into play in the events that transpire, than the simplistic historical narratives that are given to them. Then there's historical propagandas to consider as well, which chinese history is filled with.
 
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Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
I didn't know saying somebody had a better military accomplishment than them equates to snubbing them. Lol. It's crazy you say that to me in regards to Ousen & Riboku, considering how much I've hyped up their historical accomplishments. I mean everything I said in that part of the post you quoted is facts tho.

I simply explained why Gakuki is held in high regard. Then said it can be viewed as the greatest military achievement of that era, and that Hara is viewing it as such... Which is also why:
Emperor Gouzu (Liu Bang), more credible than any "Chinese historian" that you might be referring, held Gakuki above Hakuki/WangJian/etc.
Zhuge Liang, more credible than any "chinese historian" that you might be referring to, held Gakuki as the "Military God" as well, over Wang Jain/Bai Qi/etc.


What crazy is people who usually hype up these four, end up snubbing the other generals over their times as well. Wang He gets snubbed all the time, with Hakuki getting the main credit for Changping, for simply slaughtering 400k worth of soldiers who had surrendered.
Ousen credited for defeating Zhao & Chu entirely:

As the leading commander, yes. But if you mean he's credited being the one main one who was responsible for the fall of Zhao & Chu, then no. That is far from the case when you get into historical details. Zhao's sole fall, was due to Qin's political maneuvering of the Zhao court. Where as prior to that Riboku along with Shibashou (not Riboku alone), were making it impossible for Ousen & Yotanwa (the two main generals in that final invasion) to take down Zhao.. Even after Zhao had been hit by a devastating earthquake + a famine.

Then with Chu..It's argued that Shin & Mouten would've conquered it themselves, if you remove Shouheikun's betrayal, and that's with them having 1/3rd of the firepower Ousen had in his invasion. Hell people trash on Li Xin (Shin), over saying 200k instead of going with 600k like Ousen wanted, yet ignore the fact him & mouten were successful, until the SHK betrayal, which blindsided them. That big L against Kouen happened due to SHK's betrayal. If Li Xin & Mouten were good to tearing it up with just 200k, then it's only a given that Ousen would be able to do so with 600k. And even then Meng Wu (Moubu) is given huge credit for the fall of Chu.

Only a gross oversimplification of historical facts results in = Ousen defeated Zhao & Chu entirely.. like nah bruh.


Hakuki & Chu capital:
This is a great feat, not gonna see me or anyone else saying it's not. Only issue is ignoring the events that led to that happening.


Riboku: Yea not sure why you'd even mention him there considering my tons of posts about his historical greatness and it's usage in the manga.


History is simply about views. Hara, holds the fact that Gakuki took a state that was on the brink of destruction, and turned it into a military powerhouse, then masterminded a coalition, then even after that coalition slowly dissolved he almost annihilated the Qi, before falling trap into monarch politics just like Riboku did. Qi at that time being arguably the most powerful state. The man conquered 70+ plus cities in the span of few months. While also upholding morals like no raiding or whatever. Then follow that shit up by the fact that once he got removed from the military head position by the new Yan King, Qi was able to bounce back and take a fuck ton of the land Yan had taken from Qi.


So there's no snubbing going on here. There's simply the acknowledgement of Gakuki's accomplishments and explaining how he can be viewed the way he is by Hara in the KINGDOM manga. Simply because he's less renowned in the MODERN TIMES and less talked about in the later history, doesn't mean he can't be greater than them. It'd simply mean he's overlooked.


As to if I view him greater than them, idk, I don't really care much about rankings of generals in history, that shit is weird to me, since too many factors come into play in the events that transpire, than the simplistic historical narratives that are given to them. Then there's historical propagandas to consider as well, which chinese history is filled with.
Well you made there accomplishments seem trite lol but this is fine I guess. I’ve always found Gakuki overrated but I get it. I give him top 2 at maximum. Him vs any of the Qin 6 goes either way.
 
Well you made there accomplishments seem trite lol but this is fine I guess. I’ve always found Gakuki overrated but I get it. I give him top 2 at maximum. Him vs any of the Qin 6 goes either way.
Ahaha nah def not what I was going for. I was talking about in comparison to Gakuki's accomplishment. I mean that within the confines of the manga, that they don't have any comparable accomplishment. . With historically it can viewed as such dependent on your perspective of historical events, but that is how Hara is viewing it by taking the same stance as Zhuege Liang & Liu Bang.
 

TheKnightOfTheSea

✨✨✨𝓢𝓹𝓲𝓭𝓮𝓻 𝓝𝓸.3✨✨✨




Years 228-227 BC is going to be a pretty big year for Kingdom.
Sei's famous attempted assassination attempt by Entan, Prince of Yan, and one of his childhood acquaintances that also lived in Zhao as a political hostage. After the failed attempt, Ousen and Xin Sheng(someone who hasn't been introduced, prob Shin) invade Yan and absolutely wreck it.

The Queen Mother also passes away of natural causes during this time, Sei will definitely be emotionally affected by that, I can see us getting a panel of Ryofui reacting to her death in fact.


Sei also orders everyone who ever wronged his mother in Kantan to be buried alive.

Zhao is also conquered in year 228, I have no idea how Shin's going to handle the death of Riboku.

I think Sei have a mental breakdown, and maybe start committing more tyrannical and insane acts. I also think Shin will become more serious.


I think this is Great General Ri Shin fighting against a Yan army.
 

Seth

𝐊𝐨𝐤𝐮𝐭𝐨 𝐒𝐡𝐮𝐬𝐮𝐢
You decide lel. Are you caught up btw?
I will try to catch up this month. I completely lost interest in the mangas again so I put down the readthrough on pause to not read forcibly so I can enjoy it while I'm reading and not reading it for the sake of reading.

In the right state of mind, Keisha should be able to pull off the victory High diff in both rounds.

If Keisha is kill horny for KoChou like he was for Kanki then KoChou takes it easily both rounds. As simple as that.

Stat wise KoChou is better at everything bar experience where they are equals. But I think if Keisha is level-headed he can reach higher heights.

Riboku hyping him should solidify why Keisha can take a W in the right state of mind.
 

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
I will try to catch up this month. I completely lost interest in the mangas again so I put down the readthrough on pause to not read forcibly so I can enjoy it while I'm reading and not reading it for the sake of reading.

In the right state of mind, Keisha should be able to pull off the victory High diff in both rounds.

If Keisha is kill horny for KoChou like he was for Kanki then KoChou takes it easily both rounds. As simple as that.

Stat wise KoChou is better at everything bar experience where they are equals. But I think if Keisha is level-headed he can reach higher heights.

Riboku hyping him should solidify why Keisha can take a W in the right state of mind.
I understand lol, my Kingdom readthrough was slow and methodical, I didn't rush it at all.

So, what part of Kingdom are you actually on? Have you seen Kochou's feats in full? I don't really know if Keisha beats him in either scenario tbh. Kochou's subordinates are too damn strong, and Kochou himself seems very strong, very intelligent, and very experienced.
 

Seth

𝐊𝐨𝐤𝐮𝐭𝐨 𝐒𝐡𝐮𝐬𝐮𝐢
I understand lol, my Kingdom readthrough was slow and methodical, I didn't rush it at all.

So, what part of Kingdom are you actually on? Have you seen Kochou's feats in full? I don't really know if Keisha beats him in either scenario tbh. Kochou's subordinates are too damn strong, and Kochou himself seems very strong, very intelligent, and very experienced.
I've seen something.

Well, you wouldn't be wrong for picking KoChou too but I rely a lot on Riboku's statements here. Keisha seems to have far more room to develop while KoChou stopped evolving.

KoChou's Generals are better sure but the thing is. We never saw how Keisha manages his army to the full extent while in the right state of mind.

Keisha's army during KokuYou was basically: "Is General crazy or shit? What is he doing?".

KokuYou campaign really did Keisha dirty especially with all the hype from the flashbacks with Riboku. I would go even as far as to say that Keisha might be one of the biggest wasted opportunities for the sake of Shin's development.

Shin vs Rinko made perfect sense and development from this was juicy.

Shin vs Keisha is a wasted opportunity and sacrificial lamb. Bite me but I would be surprised if Keisha in the right state of mind would allow himself to die so poorly.
 

TheKnightOfTheSea

✨✨✨𝓢𝓹𝓲𝓭𝓮𝓻 𝓝𝓸.3✨✨✨
Kochou Vs Keisha?

Round 1: no subordinate generals
Round 2: with subordinates

@Blackbeard @Owl Ki @TheKnightOfTheSea @Seth @RayanOO etc etc etc
This is a pretty interesting match, I think both are solid GG tier, but below Qin's Six Great Generals Level.

I think Round 1 might go to Kochou, dude has some good martial and intellect hype. I think the location could be a major factor. Kochou might be a better defensive general than offensive general(there's a theory that he defended the Capital of Zhao, Kantan after the Battle of Chouhei.

Round 2 definitely goes to the Kochou army. Keisha's subordinates are trash. Gaku'Ei was seemingly far weaker than the other 3 generals in Zhao's left wing, and Kinmou's performance in the Battle of Shukai Plains was awful. Not sure if Keisha getting Kisui would change things.

Gakuhakukou is a major powerhouse, but Kochou's other two subordinates do seem mediocre(the dad and son seem to be strong martially, but nothing crazy)

Do we know how old Keisha is? He looks mid twenties at most, but this is Kingdom after all. Kochou's probably in his fifties/sixties.
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I've seen something.

Well, you wouldn't be wrong for picking KoChou too but I rely a lot on Riboku's statements here. Keisha seems to have far more room to develop while KoChou stopped evolving.

KoChou's Generals are better sure but the thing is. We never saw how Keisha manages his army to the full extent while in the right state of mind.

Keisha's army during KokuYou was basically: "Is General crazy or shit? What is he doing?".

KokuYou campaign really did Keisha dirty especially with all the hype from the flashbacks with Riboku. I would go even as far as to say that Keisha might be one of the biggest wasted opportunities for the sake of Shin's development.

Shin vs Rinko made perfect sense and development from this was juicy.

Shin vs Keisha is a wasted opportunity and sacrificial lamb. Bite me but I would be surprised if Keisha in the right state of mind would allow himself to die so poorly.
Keisha's one of the most disappointing Kingdom characters to me tbh. Only thing I really liked about Shin vs Keisha was the badass kill panel.

Isn't it kind of weird how Shin usually knocks back his enemies with his glaive instead of cleaving/cutting them in half?
 

Seth

𝐊𝐨𝐤𝐮𝐭𝐨 𝐒𝐡𝐮𝐬𝐮𝐢
This is a pretty interesting match, I think both are solid GG tier, but below Qin's Six Great Generals Level.

I think Round 1 might go to Kochou, dude has some good martial and intellect hype. I think the location could be a major factor. Kochou might be a better defensive general than offensive general(there's a theory that he defended the Capital of Zhao, Kantan after the Battle of Chouhei.

Round 2 definitely goes to the Kochou army. Keisha's subordinates are trash. Gaku'Ei was seemingly far weaker than the other 3 generals in Zhao's left wing, and Kinmou's performance in the Battle of Shukai Plains was awful. Not sure if Keisha getting Kisui would change things.

Gakuhakukou is a major powerhouse, but Kochou's other two subordinates do seem mediocre(the dad and son seem to be strong martially, but nothing crazy)

Do we know how old Keisha is? He looks mid twenties at most, but this is Kingdom after all. Kochou's probably in his fifties/sixties.
Post automatically merged:



Keisha's one of the most disappointing Kingdom characters to me tbh. Only thing I really liked about Shin vs Keisha was the badass kill panel.

Isn't it kind of weird how Shin usually knocks back his enemies with his glaive instead of cleaving/cutting them in half?
It says late 20's that's why I'm telling Lee that Keisha has much more room to grow and he is already a GG...

Prime Keisha rapes
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung
 

TheKnightOfTheSea

✨✨✨𝓢𝓹𝓲𝓭𝓮𝓻 𝓝𝓸.3✨✨✨
It says late 20's that's why I'm telling Lee that Keisha has much more room to grow and he is already a GG...

Prime Keisha rapes
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung
I agree, Prime Keisha def could have been a beast. Keisha's instincts definitely had room to grow, especially when comparing him to other instinctual generals like Hyou and Gyou'un.

If you gave Keisha another 5-10 years he would have been one of the biggest obstacles for Qin.
 

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
I've seen something.

Well, you wouldn't be wrong for picking KoChou too but I rely a lot on Riboku's statements here. Keisha seems to have far more room to develop while KoChou stopped evolving.

KoChou's Generals are better sure but the thing is. We never saw how Keisha manages his army to the full extent while in the right state of mind.

Keisha's army during KokuYou was basically: "Is General crazy or shit? What is he doing?".

KokuYou campaign really did Keisha dirty especially with all the hype from the flashbacks with Riboku. I would go even as far as to say that Keisha might be one of the biggest wasted opportunities for the sake of Shin's development.

Shin vs Rinko made perfect sense and development from this was juicy.

Shin vs Keisha is a wasted opportunity and sacrificial lamb. Bite me but I would be surprised if Keisha in the right state of mind would allow himself to die so poorly.
This is a pretty interesting match, I think both are solid GG tier, but below Qin's Six Great Generals Level.

I think Round 1 might go to Kochou, dude has some good martial and intellect hype. I think the location could be a major factor. Kochou might be a better defensive general than offensive general(there's a theory that he defended the Capital of Zhao, Kantan after the Battle of Chouhei.

Round 2 definitely goes to the Kochou army. Keisha's subordinates are trash. Gaku'Ei was seemingly far weaker than the other 3 generals in Zhao's left wing, and Kinmou's performance in the Battle of Shukai Plains was awful. Not sure if Keisha getting Kisui would change things.

Gakuhakukou is a major powerhouse, but Kochou's other two subordinates do seem mediocre(the dad and son seem to be strong martially, but nothing crazy)

Do we know how old Keisha is? He looks mid twenties at most, but this is Kingdom after all. Kochou's probably in his fifties/sixties.
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Keisha's one of the most disappointing Kingdom characters to me tbh. Only thing I really liked about Shin vs Keisha was the badass kill panel.

Isn't it kind of weird how Shin usually knocks back his enemies with his glaive instead of cleaving/cutting them in half?
Keisha figured our Kanki’s weakness which only Riboku has done so far as we know. Keisha was the closest General in Zhao to obtaining the Third Great Heaven seat in Zhao, and was among the top 5 most important Zhao commanders when he died. And yeah, he was only in his 20s. Give him a few more years and he would’ve reached Qin 6 level for sure.

I don’t think Keisha was disappointing, I think KokuYou Hills in general was the worst Kingdom Arc and Keisha himself was given nothing to do. All of his hype from Riboku, having defeated Riboku multiple times in war games, yet we never got to see Keisha really flex his tactics because Kanki never entertained Keisha in battle, which sucked because Kisui is boring as fuck lol.

The few times Keisha did actually do stuff, I thought he was crazy. He almost defeated Duke Hyou himself on day one of the Coalition War, and when he throttled Shin with the sword, it was clear that Keisha really was a huge talent as sword Shin has basically always been at bare minimum a high tier warrior in Kingdom, and Keisha still gave Shin a serious run for his money with the sword.

Back to Kochou though, I guess I’ll comment more when Seth catches up but I don’t see Keisha beating him lol. Really no Great Heaven level character will defeat Kochou easily, he gives all of them essentially a high diff.
 

Seth

𝐊𝐨𝐤𝐮𝐭𝐨 𝐒𝐡𝐮𝐬𝐮𝐢
I don’t think Keisha was disappointing
Different people, different approaches I guess and I respect it.

Although I still disagree. I mean at least on Keisha being disappointing or not. I think Keisha was really disappointing from the "if he delivered or not" standpoint. He got super hype from Riboku and his soldiers were confused about what the fuck is he doing when he lost his mind against Kanki.

Now go to my Ouhon thread
 

TheKnightOfTheSea

✨✨✨𝓢𝓹𝓲𝓭𝓮𝓻 𝓝𝓸.3✨✨✨
Keisha figured our Kanki’s weakness which only Riboku has done so far as we know. Keisha was the closest General in Zhao to obtaining the Third Great Heaven seat in Zhao, and was among the top 5 most important Zhao commanders when he died. And yeah, he was only in his 20s. Give him a few more years and he would’ve reached Qin 6 level for sure.

I don’t think Keisha was disappointing, I think KokuYou Hills in general was the worst Kingdom Arc and Keisha himself was given nothing to do. All of his hype from Riboku, having defeated Riboku multiple times in war games, yet we never got to see Keisha really flex his tactics because Kanki never entertained Keisha in battle, which sucked because Kisui is boring as fuck lol.

The few times Keisha did actually do stuff, I thought he was crazy. He almost defeated Duke Hyou himself on day one of the Coalition War, and when he throttled Shin with the sword, it was clear that Keisha really was a huge talent as sword Shin has basically always been at bare minimum a high tier warrior in Kingdom, and Keisha still gave Shin a serious run for his money with the sword.

Back to Kochou though, I guess I’ll comment more when Seth catches up but I don’t see Keisha beating him lol. Really no Great Heaven level character will defeat Kochou easily, he gives all of them essentially a high diff.
I feel like Keisha died a little too early into the Kokoyou hill arc, if he lived a little longer he would have been more impressive and the arc would have been better as a whole.

@Seth @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung how would you rank all of Shin's major fights?

Apparently,
in real life, Chousha(the final Zhao Heaven was the father of Choukatsu, the man who lost the battle of Chouhei against Ouki and Hakuki. Chousha said that Choukatsu should never be given command of an army, even though Choukatsu defeated Chousha in war games.
 

Seth

𝐊𝐨𝐤𝐮𝐭𝐨 𝐒𝐡𝐮𝐬𝐮𝐢
I feel like Keisha died a little too early into the Kokoyou hill arc, if he lived a little longer he would have been more impressive and the arc would have been better as a whole.

@Seth @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung how would you rank all of Shin's major fights?

Apparently,
in real life, Chousha(the final Zhao Heaven was the father of Choukatsu, the man who lost the battle of Chouhei against Ouki and Hakuki. Chousha said that Choukatsu should never be given command of an army, even though Choukatsu defeated Chousha in war games.
Not caught up yet but I genuinely think that nothing comes close to Shin vs Rinko.

So for me. Shin vs Rinko >>> whatever the rest is.
 

Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
Now go to my Ouhon thread
Done Bitch
:getnappaed:

@Seth @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung how would you rank all of Shin's major fights?
Shin’s best 1v1 fights? I don’t really care about Kingdom 1v1s lol. The greater battles are where it’s at.

I guess my favorite Shin 1v1 is Gakuhaku Kou because of extreme dumpling supremacy. Gakuhaku Kou is really one of the coolest characters to me lmfao.
 

TheKnightOfTheSea

✨✨✨𝓢𝓹𝓲𝓭𝓮𝓻 𝓝𝓸.3✨✨✨
Shin’s best 1v1 fights? I don’t really care about Kingdom 1v1s lol. The greater battles are where it’s at.

I guess my favorite Shin 1v1 is Gakuhaku Kou because of extreme dumpling supremacy. Gakuhaku Kou is really one of the coolest characters to me lmfao.


Would have thought you'd choose Gyou'un vs Shin or Rinko vs Shin lol.

I like 2v2s and other fights like that, 1v2s are always intense and hype af too. Scenes like Akou vs Gyou'un and Bananji are dope to me, especially when Akkakin got involved at the end.

I hope we'll see Shin fight a 2v2 with Ouhon/Yotanwa/Tou/Moubu one day tho :steef:
 
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