Yo Tan Wa matching Ren Pan and Gakuki in overall points
Hakuki disappointing 92 leadership points (now officially below Ousen)
Mou Bu is now 100 and Shou Hei Kun stays at 90
Yo Tan Wa matching Ren Pan and Gakuki in overall points
Hakuki disappointing 92 leadership points (now officially below Ousen)
Mou Bu is now 100 and Shou Hei Kun stays at 90
These are the only mentions of Kouen in the manga iirc.
From what we can interpret from this:
Kouen was a Great General during the same era of the Six Great Generals of Qin and Zhao 3 Heavens, and Kouen was considered to be strong enough to defeat one of them.
Renpa appears to respect Kouen as a general.
Somebody who hates warfare(Rien) quoted Kouen. I think this shows that Kouen is a very observant man, and is most likely respected by non military figures too.
Karin also calls Kouen "General Kouen", iirc that's the most respect she's shown anybody in the entire series. Wouldn't be surprised if Karin served under Kouen in the past.
I have a small theory about Kouen. We know that Kouyoku(his chinese name is Xiang Yi even tho he's fictional) and Kouen(Xiang Yan) are probably related. Some think that they may be father and son, but I think they're distant relatives, and Kouen is actually a member of the branch family while Kouyoku's a member of the main family. Kouyoku also owns the legendary Bakuya Sword, which I believe is a family weapon. Kouen being a member of a branch family could mean that he'd be a parallel of Ouki.
Kouen is defeated by the Ousen army during the final Chu invasion and commits suicide.
Later, Ousen's grandson and son of Ouhon(I believe his name is Ouri) dies at the hands of the legendary Xiang Yu, grandson of Kouen. Ironic.
I think Xiang Yu's translated name is Kou U, but I wouldn't know.
This is def foreshadowing for
Ouhon drowning the capital of Wei.
I 100% believe we're going to get at least 1-3 major Kingdom arcs post unification, for a couple of main reasons 1.
Hara expressed a desire to go pass unification in an interview, infact, he thinks it will end with Emperor Gaozu of the Han Dynasty taking the throne.
Gaozu and Xiang Yu famously fought a war that ended in Gaozu becoming victorious and establishing the Han Dynasty that lasted 400 years.
2.
The introduction of Choukou, aka Zhaogao, the man responsible for ruining the Qin dynasty, and the deaths of Mouten and Mouki(and Sei's oldest son). He showed up in the State of Ai arc as the Chancellor of the State of Ai arc, a position he did not have in history(it's literally decades ahead of his first recorded appearance).
Hara definitely has big plans for Choukou. Most importantly, most of the events that Choukou caused happened after the death of Ei Sei.
Kou En was likely a Great General even in the days of Gakuki. His epithet “the Conqueror of the East”, implies that he conquered a shit ton of territory in Eastern Chu.
The only territory in Eastern Chu that we know of that at one point could’ve ever been conquered, was the territory that once belonged to Qi when Qi was a superstate. Kou En was likely the GG responsible for conquering southern Qi and integrating that territory into Chu while Gakuki was attributed with the overall victory of the Coalition Army as its leader.
And this fits thematically with the role Kou En will serve during the Chu campaign but I won’t elaborate on that now lol.
Yo Tan Wa matching Ren Pan and Gakuki in overall points
Hakuki disappointing 92 leadership points (now officially below Ousen)
Mou Bu is now 100 and Shou Hei Kun stays at 90
I don’t pay any attention to the stats outside of curiosity. Most of the stats just don’t match what we see in the manga.
I don’t have a problem with Yotanwa being on par with Renpa and Gakuki, I don’t think of Gakuki as being above any of the Qin 6 or Zhao 3 in strength and never have. And Yotanwa’s accomplishments in the manga at least, are incredible and even Renpa’s historical accomplishments aren’t better than hers at this point.
Hakuki never struck me as a “leader commander” like Ouki or Duke Hyou (or even Shin) who inspire great bursts of strength and passion from their men, Hakuki strikes me as a brutal commander who demoralized his enemies rather than inspiring his own men. So if this is what the “leadership” stat references then it’s fine I guess. But according to the stats Tou has a higher leadership stat than Ouki which is just wrong in every aspect so like I said I don’t take the stats seriously.
Moubu having 100 strength seems premature after Man’U, I still don’t think Moubu is stronger than Kanmei was, I see current Moubu and Kanmei as pretty much equals. Kanmei had the stronger body while Moubu had the stronger will, and in the end Moubu only one because Kanmei’s weapon broke and because Kanmei struck Mouten which made Moubu explode with rage. This is how I see their fight. But I’ll give Moubu the benefit of the doubt and go with Moubu = Kanmei. If Moubu was stronger than Kanmei then he would’ve shown much more against Man’U who very much treated Moubu like a scrub.
And of course Shouheikun at 90 is as wrong as ever, especially since Wategi was also a 90 and Shouheikun rolled over him easily. By stats I’d put current Shouheikun at 95 or 96 in strength.
But I’m more interested in that IQ stat. Shouheikun at 99 IQ puts him as an equal to Ousen, Hakuki, and in my opinion the most controversial, Rinshoujou.
Shouheikun = Ousen is something I can get behind, with them simply having different types of knowledge, Shouheikun being more of a traditional warfare expert while Ousen having more experience-based intelligence, which can explain how Ousen created an unorthodox strategy to conquer Gyou that Shouheikun never considered.
Shouheikun = Hakuki is fine I guess, we don’t know much about Hakuki’s IQ other than that he was a genius lol.
But Shouheikun having IQ on par with Rinshoujou is straight up weird to me. Rinshoujou was referenced as being an equal to Renpa. Renpa’s strength came from both his IQ as well as his fighting strength, meaning Rinshoujou would’ve had to have been smarter than Renpa to be his equal as Rinshoujou’s brains would have to make up for his inability to match Renpa’s brawns. If Shouheikun is as intelligent as Rinshoujou, then his overall abilities in warfare are straight up above both Rinshoujou and Renpa, since by definition he would be smarter than Renpa while simultaneously being a warrior that Rinshoujou could not match.
In brains, Shouheikun = Rinshoujou > Renpa
In brawns, Shouheikun ~ Renpa >>>> Rinshoujou
So by definition Shouheikun’s strength in war would exceed Great Heaven level.
I’m not sure Hara wants us to see Shouheikun as straight up superior to the old Great Heavens but that’s kind of what this idea implies to me.
These are the only mentions of Kouen in the manga iirc.
From what we can interpret from this:
Kouen was a Great General during the same era of the Six Great Generals of Qin and Zhao 3 Heavens, and Kouen was considered to be strong enough to defeat one of them.
Renpa appears to respect Kouen as a general.
Somebody who hates warfare(Rien) quoted Kouen. I think this shows that Kouen is a very observant man, and is most likely respected by non military figures too.
Karin also calls Kouen "General Kouen", iirc that's the most respect she's shown anybody in the entire series. Wouldn't be surprised if Karin served under Kouen in the past.
I have a small theory about Kouen. We know that Kouyoku(his chinese name is Xiang Yi even tho he's fictional) and Kouen(Xiang Yan) are probably related. Some think that they may be father and son, but I think they're distant relatives, and Kouen is actually a member of the branch family while Kouyoku's a member of the main family. Kouyoku also owns the legendary Bakuya Sword, which I believe is a family weapon. Kouen being a member of a branch family could mean that he'd be a parallel of Ouki.
Kouen is defeated by the Ousen army during the final Chu invasion and commits suicide.
Later, Ousen's grandson and son of Ouhon(I believe his name is Ouri) dies at the hands of the legendary Xiang Yu, grandson of Kouen. Ironic.
I think Xiang Yu's translated name is Kou U, but I wouldn't know.
This is def foreshadowing for
Ouhon drowning the capital of Wei.
I 100% believe we're going to get at least 1-3 major Kingdom arcs post unification, for a couple of main reasons 1.
Hara expressed a desire to go pass unification in an interview, infact, he thinks it will end with Emperor Gaozu of the Han Dynasty taking the throne.
Gaozu and Xiang Yu famously fought a war that ended in Gaozu becoming victorious and establishing the Han Dynasty that lasted 400 years.
2.
The introduction of Choukou, aka Zhaogao, the man responsible for ruining the Qin dynasty, and the deaths of Mouten and Mouki(and Sei's oldest son). He showed up in the State of Ai arc as the Chancellor of the State of Ai arc, a position he did not have in history(it's literally decades ahead of his first recorded appearance).
Hara definitely has big plans for Choukou. Most importantly, most of the events that Choukou caused happened after the death of Ei Sei.
Kou En was likely a Great General even in the days of Gakuki. His epithet “the Conqueror of the East”, implies that he conquered a shit ton of territory in Eastern Chu.
The only territory in Eastern Chu that we know of that at one point could’ve ever been conquered, was the territory that once belonged to Qi when Qi was a superstate. Kou En was likely the GG responsible for conquering southern Qi and integrating that territory into Chu while Gakuki was attributed with the overall victory of the Coalition Army as its leader.
And this fits thematically with the role Kou En will serve during the Chu campaign but I won’t elaborate on that now lol.
Historically, Ousen, Hakuki, Riboku and Renpa are the 4 greatest generals of the Warring States period. Interestingly enough, Hakuki was actually slightly more formidable in real life believe it or not lol.
We know that Shunshinkun originally planned on making his baby(and Rien's sister's) the King of Chu. However, he had a change of heart and decided to start supporting Kouretsu's younger brother as King:
We know that Shunshinkun worked hard to build Chu into a superstate, so why would he ruin all of that hard work by making a violent, deviant king?
My theory, is that Shinshinkun actually wanted to make Shouheikun the King instead.
We know from historical records that Shouheikun is the son of Kouretsu, making him likely one of the only males in China with Chu royal blood. I believe that Shouheikun was sent to Qin as a political hostage, but wasn't able to return due to politics at home.
Interestingly enough, after Karin and Rien's conversation, we get a short scene of Shouheikun.
But Shouheikun having IQ on par with Rinshoujou is straight up weird to me. Rinshoujou was referenced as being an equal to Renpa. Renpa’s strength came from both his IQ as well as his fighting strength, meaning Rinshoujou would’ve had to have been smarter than Renpa to be his equal as Rinshoujou’s brains would have to make up for his inability to match Renpa’s brawns. If Shouheikun is as intelligent as Rinshoujou, then his overall abilities in warfare are straight up above both Rinshoujou and Renpa, since by definition he would be smarter than Renpa while simultaneously being a warrior that Rinshoujou could not match.
In brains, Shouheikun = Rinshoujou > Renpa
In brawns, Shouheikun ~ Renpa >>>> Rinshoujou
So by definition Shouheikun’s strength in war would exceed Great Heaven level.
I’m not sure Hara wants us to see Shouheikun as straight up superior to the old Great Heavens but that’s kind of what this idea implies to me.
Renpa has a lot more exp in warfare than SHK. And Renpa is both instinct and strategy. Even if SHK has more smart than Renpa, Renpa is still a huge pain in the ass, the guy can do anything in a battle. And he has his 4 HK to help him.
About RSJ the guy was insanely good. Brain and leadership wise in warfare RSJ likely didn’t anything to envy to SHK. Decades later guys are ready to die for him. And RSJ compensate his poor physical strength by having one of the strongest retinue. Those 10 heroes are no joke.
I think SHK would end up being Upper GG level but he is not a god. I don’t see him for now superior to Renpa or RSJ with his army. At best he would be slightly superior but just a shade. Renpa and RSJ are both top tier GG.
Given that KouYoku (100% Kou En’s son) is just now becoming a Chu General at like 22, I assume that Kou En optimistically wouldn’t have become a Great General until he was like 25, and assuming Chu had other GG’s at the time, it would’ve still been unlikely that Kou En would’ve been selected as Chu’s representative in the first Coalition War unless Chu sent multiple GGs (or Kou En was only a General and still was rampaging through Qi).
But yeah I think Kou En was essentially a very young commander back (almost like Shin right now) then but still became very famous as he conquered huge chunks of territory from Qi in the name of Chu. Now I’ll go into my spoiler prediction territory:
I have detailed quite heavily in the past while Shin is 99% certain to slay Renpa during the Chu Arc, but I think Shin will also be the one to personally slay Kou En (even though Ousen will be leading Qin into Chu).
One of the big themes of the Chu arc will be Shin proving that he isn’t just the greatest General of this era, but he is the greatest General of all past eras as well.
Slaying Renpa will be the moment where Shin definitively proves that he has surpassed Renpa and Ouki’s era of warfare, slaying Kou En will prove that Shin has surpassed Gakuki’s era of warfare as well. I essentially think we will find out that Kou En, even though he was so young, that people viewed him as a General with the potential to rival Gakuki in strength, and thus by the time Shin faces Kou En he’ll be a Gakuki level commander (Shin slaying him will be definitive proof that Shin has surpassed Gakuki).
I don’t see him for now superior to Renpa or RSJ with his army. At best he would be slightly superior but just a shade. Renpa and RSJ are both top tier GG.
That’s what I’m saying. If we believe the stats, then Shouheikun is on par with Renpa without even lifting his Glaive, since Shouheikun would be as intelligent as a character who was also equal to Renpa from just his IQ. Shouheikun would be Great Heaven level as just a tactician, not even counting his fighting strength.
But then again, Shouheikun has been compared to Riboku intellectually as well as Moubu martially so who knows. He could legit be above Renpa.
Given that KouYoku (100% Kou En’s son) is just now becoming a Chu General at like 22, I assume that Kou En optimistically wouldn’t have become a Great General until he was like 25, and assuming Chu had other GG’s at the time, it would’ve still been unlikely that Kou En would’ve been selected as Chu’s representative in the first Coalition War unless Chu sent multiple GGs (or Kou En was only a General and still was rampaging through Qi).
But yeah I think Kou En was essentially a very young commander back (almost like Shin right now) then but still became very famous as he conquered huge chunks of territory from Qi in the name of Chu. Now I’ll go into my spoiler prediction territory:
I like the idea of Kouen becoming famous because of what he did to Qi. Realistically, the Chu Great General in the first Coalition is probably dead lol.
I don't know if Chu was considered a superstate during that time either.
I have detailed quite heavily in the past while Shin is 99% certain to slay Renpa during the Chu Arc, but I think Shin will also be the one to personally slay Kou En (even though Ousen will be leading Qin into Chu).
One of the big themes of the Chu arc will be Shin proving that he isn’t just the greatest General of this era, but he is the greatest General of all past eras as well.
Slaying Renpa will be the moment where Shin definitively proves that he has surpassed Renpa and Ouki’s era of warfare, slaying Kou En will prove that Shin has surpassed Gakuki’s era of warfare as well. I essentially think we will find out that Kou En, even though he was so young, that people viewed him as a General with the potential to rival Gakuki in strength, and thus by the time Shin faces Kou En he’ll be a Gakuki level commander (Shin slaying him will be definitive proof that Shin has surpassed Gakuki).
I think Shin will get both Renpa and Kouen during the Chu arc too, I also think he may get Man'U and the Juuko Guys too.
We know that Shin went on a rampage before being sneak attacked by Kouen, I think Shin will defeat Man'U/Random Strong Chu General during this rampage before SHK and Kouen defeat him. After Shin's defeat, Ousen invades Chu and captures the King and the capital. I believe that Shin will kill Renpa, and Renpa will die in the Capital of Chu like he did historically(Well, historically, Renpa dies of old age, not in war).
After that, Kouen will make Shouheikun king, just like he did the Chu Zi and Meng Wu one shot.
Then the final battle will happen and Shin will fight and slay Kouen, andShouheikun will go down at the hands of Moubu.
I can see Kouen getting hyped up to be his generation's equivalent of Gakuki, it has been a long time since Gakuki was mentioned.
I'm not 100% sure if Kouen will end up being a superior general to Renpa though....
If Hara really wants us to see Kanmei as > Oukotsu, then surely Kou En will wind up superior to Renpa, but not by much of course. These gaps aren’t big.
I always thought of Kou En as being superior to every commander we’ve ever seen accept for Hakuki, Gakuki, and Riboku. He is in the same strength tier as these 4 I think.
If Hara really wants us to see Kanmei as > Oukotsu, then surely Kou En will wind up superior to Renpa, but not by much of course. These gaps aren’t big.
I always thought of Kou En as being superior to every commander we’ve ever seen accept for Hakuki, Gakuki, and Riboku. He is in the same strength tier as these 4 I think.
The weird thing about the Kanmei Oukotsu encounter was that it seemed like Kanmei won through speed and technique not pure strength, but I def have Prime Kanmei>Oukotsu regardless.
I think at the bare minimum Kouen is Renpa/Ouki level, I can totally see him being higher.
Not sure if he's going to be above Riboku, since Riboku has been constantly hyped up as the number 1 in China rn.
Do you think Kouen will be a better general than Shouheikun?
What role do you think Hakuki/Gakuki will play in future story arcs? I can see Hakuki getting a flashback during the final Zhao invasion or something, and I think we may see some of Gakuki's family members in the Yan invasion arc.
I don’t really know what to think of Shouheikun’s power level yet lol. Like where he compares to Great Generals and such. I think it’s undeniable that Shouheikun in the end will boast a 100 IQ stat.
In Hara’s one shot, he and Moubu seemed like the two central figures behind Qin’s domination of the other states:
So I think in the end, the top brains in Kingdom are Shouheikun, Riboku, Ousen, and Mouten.
But how Shouheikun compares to Kou En I have no earthly idea atm. I’d give it to Kou En though probably.
What role do you think Hakuki/Gakuki will play in future story arcs? I can see Hakuki getting a flashback during the final Zhao invasion or something, and I think we may see some of Gakuki's family members in the Yan invasion arc.
For Gakuki, I have no clue where Hara is going with him other than for him to serve as an obstacle Shin will overcome someday (via Kou En). But Gakuki historically was not regarded as a GG on par with the big 4, so I’m not sure why Hara gave him the hype that he did. Gakuki and King Sho even shared the God of War title..so yeah I have no clue lol.
For Hakuki, I really have no clue. Like you said I think what happens to Riboku in the end is similar to what happened to Hakuki…but I don’t think we’ll need a Hakuki flashback to appreciate what happens to Riboku lol. That’d be like if right before Ouki’s death, Hara did a flashback to show us another General dying while giving an emotional speech to his men. It just isn’t necessary.
Iirc, Hakuki defeated a Chu army (or something) by flooding them one time, and Ouhon will defeat Wei by flooding them, so we may hey a flashback there.
What is it with the Ou family and stealing Hakuki’s tactics? Lel
For Gakuki, I have no clue where Hara is going with him other than for him to serve as an obstacle Shin will overcome someday (via Kou En). But Gakuki historically was not regarded as a GG on par with the big 4, so I’m not sure why Hara gave him the hype that he did. Gakuki and King Sho even shared the God of War title..so yeah I have no clue lol.
For Hakuki, I really have no clue. Like you said I think what happens to Riboku in the end is similar to what happened to Hakuki…but I don’t think we’ll need a Hakuki flashback to appreciate what happens to Riboku lol. That’d be like if right before Ouki’s death, Hara did a flashback to show us another General dying while giving an emotional speech to his men. It just isn’t necessary
Hakuki's biggest role in Kingdom so far has been burying 400k Zhao soldiers, which lead to Zhao despising Qin, and indirectly lead to Sei's horrible treatment at the hands of Zhao citizens.
After the invasion of Zhao, Sei buries everyone alive who hurt him and his mother during Sei's childhood. If Sei does go insane, I can see him doing that and him being compared to Hakuki, but idk.
It's crazy how we haven't seen Sei's father's face yet.
It's very possible, I think when we get the Ousen/Qi flashback (not if but when, my theory is canon goddamit), it will be more focused on the Ou family themselves as the reason Qi will have been targeted by a Coalition Army is due to how incredibly dangerous their unification ambition is. This will also be the time for us to explore what exactly makes Ousen so determined to fulfill his "dark ambition".
It's very possible, I think when we get the Ousen/Qi flashback (not if but when, my theory is canon goddamit), it will be more focused on the Ou family themselves as the reason Qi will have been targeted by a Coalition Army is due to how incredibly dangerous their unification ambition is. This will also be the time for us to explore what exactly makes Ousen so determined to fulfill his "dark ambition".
That's really interesting... All the Ou family members we've met so far have definitely been special (Ouki was considered to be the strongest of the 6GGs, Ousen is Ousen, Ouken is the best leader in the manga, etc.)
Ouhon may also not be Ousen's real son.... That could be relevant in the future if Ousen does become a King at some point.
But historically, the King of Qi's personal name was Tian Jian.
Yet another reason to believe Yoku is Kou En’s son and that he and Ouhon have a massive rematch coming. Both of them would be the alleged sons of the two commanders of each army lol.
Yet another reason to believe Yoku is Kou En’s son and that he and Ouhon have a massive rematch coming. Both of them would be the alleged sons of the two commanders of each army
Yeah I have no idea who's going to take out Kouyoku tbh. Tou has the most beef with him, but Tou could very well die to Kouyoku. Kouyoku uses a sword like Shin, and he seems to be "Evil Shin" basically. Ouhon could also work, and I'd honestly prefer Ouhon over the other options.
I think Kouyoku's boyfriend (the archer) is def losing to Mouten tho.
If Sei's father didn't force Hakuki to kill himself, maybe Hakuki committed suicide out of grief over King Sho's death?
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