Rules Kingdom General Discussion

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung Even with Ouki alive and all the other commanders (Tou, Moubu though very tired, Ouki's vassals), Kyoukai, Shin...this situation looks very brutal to me
If Houken were not present, Riboku would’ve never set his sights on Ouki to begin with and the whole battle of Bayou would’ve never occurred lol. But I know Shanks’ question was about that specific exchange so we have to analyze that.

So by the time Ouki and Chousou’s armies came face to face, Ouki knew that he was being targeted by a Zhao reinforcement army with an Unidentified commander. Ouki also knew this commander was specifically aiming to take his head by the presence of Houken and the nature of Ouki being lured into a corner situation. So Ouki knew that he had to crush Chousou’s forces as fast as possible and save Moubu, then get the fuck out of there before whoever this commander was could pin him into a death trap. All of this is stated when Ouki reaches Chousou’s army.

So Ouki was specifically trying to dismantle Chousou’s army, slay Chousou, and save Moubu as fast as possible, and in the course of like, 10 minutes, he had already completely dismantled Chousou’s army and was plowing straight through to Chousou’s HQ while Tou was preventing Chousou’s troops from coming to his HQ’s aid.

The sole and only reason that Ouki’s momentum was halted was Houken who’s appearance stopped the entire Qin charge and lead to Houken vs Ouki. But take Houken out of that equation, and Ouki continues to horrifically dismantle Chousou with prejudice and plows straight through his headquarters. Chousou was ultimately unable to stop Tou and was completely overwhelmed and ultimately slayed by Tou, just imagine how much worse of a boat Chousou would be in if he did not have Houken to completely check Ouki and had to somehow handle both Ouki and Tou.

So yeah, Ouki had made a comment that were he inclined to get serious, “Chousou’s formations would not last even for an instant” and I am inclined to believe him, Ouki would’ve totally defeated Chousou and saved Moubu in rapid time. So from here it becomes a question of, can Riboku even make it in time to pin Ouki at all when Ouki’a specific objective was to get out of there before Riboku’s arrival?

Riboku’s cavalry are fast, but Ouki was specifically known as the Monstrous Bird because of how fast he could move his armies as well. So would Riboku have pinned Ouki at all? I say if Riboku would’ve not made it in time, his chances at defeating Ouki even with 40K vs 7K plummet massively.

But let’s say Riboku does pin Ouki, and we have a 40K vs 7K where Ouki cannot retreat to more favorable conditions.

In this scenario, it’s still debatable whether Riboku can actually win lmfao, there’s no (in my opinion) army vs army tactics that Riboku can pull that Ouki/Tou can’t read and correct for. Like I said Riboku’s strength is in prep-time, information manipulation and grand strategy, purely in terms of army vs army warfare he is losing to Ouki, which is why he pulled all of the shenanigans he did to corner Ouki in the first place. So even 7K vs 40K, Ouki is coming for Riboku’s head lol.
 
So yeah, Ouki had made a comment that were he inclined to get serious, “Chousou’s formations would not last even for an instant” and I am inclined to believe him, Ouki would’ve totally defeated Chousou and saved Moubu in rapid time. So from here it becomes a question of, can Riboku even make it in time to pin Ouki at all when Ouki’a specific objective was to get out of there before Riboku’s arrival?
Ouki did said that about dismantling the formation but i won't be reducing Chousou's capabilities and Riboku's greatness to manipulate a battlefield through a feeded strategy in someone else's brain. Lol
But let’s say Riboku does pin Ouki, and we have a 40K vs 7K where Ouki cannot retreat to more favorable conditions.

In this scenario, it’s still debatable whether Riboku can actually win lmfao, there’s no (in my opinion) army vs army tactics that Riboku can pull that Ouki/Tou can’t read and correct for. Like I said Riboku’s strength is in prep-time, information manipulation and grand strategy, purely in terms of army vs army warfare he is losing to Ouki, which is why he pulled all of the shenanigans he did to corner Ouki in the first place. So even 7K vs 40K, Ouki is coming for Riboku’s head lol.
This is the exact situation i meant with. 40K vs 7K. Thanks.

Even though Riboku's strategy did chipped down the numbers of Qin army but how would it be when 7K would be going against fresh 40K. And i agrees with you here, the monstrous strength led by the trio along with brain of Ouki and Tou, it would still be difficult for Riboku.
 
prep-time, information manipulation and grand strateg
What Riboku did against Ouki and Kanki (information manipulation, all the pre battle set up etc.) definitely is Riboku at his most most dangerous but Riboku is also a man who, just pick to a few examples:

- Could use advanced tactics like Ryuudou while not even needing a high vantage point (lmao) and that tactic was specifically overcome by the absolute apex of the Instinctual commander, a man who was above Riboku's own understanding of warfare by Riboku's words.

- Was tactically superior to Ousen (and masterminded both Akou's and Makou's defeats) and Ousen is a mind whose tactics had gotten compared to Hakuki's by Renpa as far back as Sanyou. He was also able to literally deconstruct the instinctual way from that one encounter with Hyou and hammer that knowledge into his strategical type soldiers. When Ousen (Ousen, one of the very very best minds in the manga) understood it, Riboku was literally shocked, that's how much faith the man had in it.
Shell and joints, a formation that was incredibly strong (as seen against Bananji and his guys for example), read no problem etc.

The one thing Riboku isn't a monster at is 1vs1 prowess lol (though I thought he would have been stronger than that)....but, yeah.
 
@SakazOuki @Owl Ki @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung @Jailer @Dark Admiral @God Buggy @Monet @Yo Tan Wa @Blackbeard @MarineHQ

Your thoughts on Riboku's performance against Ouki or Gekishin or Duke Hyou or Ousen if there was no Houken or anyone like him in his army or aid in every encounter of Riboku with these above mentioned men....

For example, if there wasn't any Houken but Riboku lured Ouki to that bell shaped mountain and trapped him there while his army still making that surprise entry, than would Riboku still had won or Ouki would've died ?
To this day i'm not convinced Gekishin would've lost if Houken didn't pop up to stop Yan's 15,000 army led by poison dogs against Riboku's mere 8000, there wasn't even time for those 8000 to take formations due to how Gekishin's cavalry speed surpassed what Riboku's imagined as the narrator said.

On the other hand, removing Houken from Bayou won't affect how the battle went for the first half, assuming Ouki would still have a reason to lead Qin in battle, mainly because all the Zhao strategies in the first four days were by Chouusou/Riboku, with Houken basically in a staring contest most of the time. Chouusou's traps and ambushes are what forced Ouki to chase him towards the chokepoint, even with Chousou falling down i'm not sure if Qin would still have enough strength to fend off Riboku's reinforcement army, wasn't it specifically mentioned to be 200,000 by Yotanwa?
 
But let’s say Riboku does pin Ouki, and we have a 40K vs 7K where Ouki cannot retreat to more favorable conditions.
Ou Ki Army possessed extraordinary offensive output.

I don't believe Ri Boku could contain an army of powerful soldiers led by Ou Ki (STR 98), Tou (STR 96) and Roku O Mi (STR 92) if he wanted to.

With those numbers, I don't think Ri Boku would even consider containment.
 
To this day i'm not convinced Gekishin would've lost if Houken didn't pop up to stop Yan's 15,000 army led by poison dogs against Riboku's mere 8000, there wasn't even time for those 8000 to take formations due to how Gekishin's cavalry speed surpassed what Riboku's imagined as the narrator said.
Gekishin would have destroyed Riboku's HQ. While no way Riboku could have fled from there coz both of them had superfast northern steed.

Only question is how strong Gekishin personally is !?
Chouusou's traps and ambushes are what forced Ouki to chase him towards the chokepoint, even with Chousou falling down i'm not sure if Qin would still have enough strength to fend off Riboku's reinforcement army, wasn't it specifically mentioned to be 200,000 by Yotanwa?
Riboku came with 40k only.
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Ou Ki Army possessed extraordinary offensive output.

I don't believe Ri Boku could contain an army of powerful soldiers led by Ou Ki (STR 98), Tou (STR 96) and Roku O Mi (STR 92) if he wanted to.

With those numbers, I don't think Ri Boku would even consider containment.
Moubu was there as well.
 
Moubu was there as well.
Maybe I was mistaken, but I took that hypothetical as being Ou Ki Army only. But if I'm wrong, throwing Mou Bu into the equation makes containment much less a bad option and closer to suicide. It would turn into Hi Shin Army vs Chou Ga Ryuu's elites, where they stood their ground and slaughtered CGR's elites to the last man, only I don't think Ri Boku could escape Ou Ki, Mou Bu and Tou.
 
@SakazOuki @Owl Ki @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung @Jailer @Dark Admiral @God Buggy @Monet @Yo Tan Wa @Blackbeard @MarineHQ

Your thoughts on Riboku's performance against Ouki or Gekishin or Duke Hyou or Ousen if there was no Houken or anyone like him in his army or aid in every encounter of Riboku with these above mentioned men....

For example, if there wasn't any Houken but Riboku lured Ouki to that bell shaped mountain and trapped him there while his army still making that surprise entry, than would Riboku still had won or Ouki would've died ?

-Ouki: Houken was saved twice from Ouki, the first being Ouki ready to slice off his neck the moment before the Riboku army arrived, and the second with that cursed arrow. So even with Houken, if we take away the PIS of the former instance of Houken getting his ass saved, Riboku would fail the entrapment.
The Qin soldiers here went "General Ouki what are you doing" "why did you not finish him" etc

If you completely take Houken out of the picture


I'm not sure what kind of army you need to stop the charge of 7k Ouki army under the threat of extinction. Under normal circumstances they are described as demon gods, add to that a pincer from Moubu and things get dire for Riboku.
Eventually he'll have to abandon the battlefield, his superior cavalry will carry him to safety but his numbers here are nowhere near stopping troops of this caliber.

-Against Gekishin: Riboku would've definitely thought of a way to abandon HQ the moment Gekishin figures out his location, I don't think he's dumb enough to confront him with a numerical disadvantage.
The war continues, I think Riboku bests him in the end but it would be an ext diff battle for sure.

-Duke Hyou: Riboku would simply retreat down the bottleneck and there's really nothing the Duke can do with his few troops

-Against Ousen: Riboku would again make it out alive, but this leaves the HSU fresh on the pursuit, potentially Riboku loses Futei and Bananji who were engaged with Ousen at that point.
 
Only question is how strong Gekishin personally is !?
He did kill multiple bushins but there's no way to tell how strong they were, but for a GG and a 3GH candidate that confidently takes it to the frontline with a glaive, i guess it's fair to think he can maul someone like Riboku.

Combined with having superior soldiers, faster cavalry and almost twice the numbers, i would've liked to see how Riboku deal with all that.

Riboku came with 40k only.
Well that's still a lot knowing that he held back and relied on Qin's crushed morale after seeing the reinforcements and a 3GH flag, Riboku's goal was killing Ouki, but considering the latter would've also escaped the chokepoint, it's difficult to predict what could've happened (if Ouki doesn't decide to retreat).
 
@SakazOuki @Owl Ki @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung @Jailer @Dark Admiral @God Buggy @Monet @Yo Tan Wa @Blackbeard @MarineHQ

Your thoughts on Riboku's performance against Ouki or Gekishin or Duke Hyou or Ousen if there was no Houken or anyone like him in his army or aid in every encounter of Riboku with these above mentioned men....

For example, if there wasn't any Houken but Riboku lured Ouki to that bell shaped mountain and trapped him there while his army still making that surprise entry, than would Riboku still had won or Ouki would've died ?

rbk would have died in against all of them.

gekishin and hyou were meters away from rbk they get his head quic even if they outnumbered.

but rbk with ouki is different
ouki army was farmers and weakend by
that zhaoi strategy
and rbk came with new army at the end
so even if ouki mobo tou manged to defend the main army of Zhao before rbk arrive it will be still worse
as they cornered and facing fresh army.
even with tou mobu ouki teaming up at least someone of them will die at the end.
 
He did kill multiple bushins but there's no way to tell how strong they were, but for a GG and a 3GH candidate that confidently takes it to the frontline with a glaive, i guess it's fair to think he can maul someone like Riboku.
I'm all for Gekishin hype, but i wouldn't give him this much duelling credit tbh. I'd consider him and Riboku to be of similar skill but one would have significantly more weight than the other.
 
Just read some history spoilers for the first time:
So if Hara decides to go with irl events, Riboku and SBS should hold off Ousen’s assault until the minister convinces the King of executing Riboku and exiling SBS

This would be such an underwhelming plot if Hara actually goes for it, especially after he dedicated more than a third of his chapters so far to the Qin vs Zhao war
 
Just read some history spoilers for the first time:
So if Hara decides to go with irl events, Riboku and SBS should hold off Ousen’s assault until the minister convinces the King of executing Riboku and exiling SBS

This would be such an underwhelming plot if Hara actually goes for it, especially after he dedicated more than a third of his chapters so far to the Qin vs Zhao war
I think Ousen is gonna bribe the court from behind the scenes and replace Riboku with this mid tier trash, history repeats itself, zhao shooting itself in the foot
 
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