Kingdom General Tier list
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Shibashou two tiers below Ousen despite bodying him
"Lee Ba Shou" lmao, how do you have a fictional horse cock in your mouth this badly?
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Ri Boku has better feats in the manga and historically. Gaku Ki has nothing but hype.
Shin has never led a campaign. He has never led his own battle where the buck stops at him. Right now he is an extremely dangerous battlefield general, but he's far from the complete package.
A Kou isn't low, I just don't overrate him like most of you do.
Are you sincerely suggesting Rei Ou rose all the way to Great General of a major state without ever proving his ability to lead (win) battles and campaigns on his own?
lmao, "all" Ri Boku did was deliver on the crucial set up that he planned and prepared for a year in total secrecy.
He's Prime Minister and the head of Zhao's military, you fuck, and when have you known him to execute a war on someone else's designs?
Cry all about Ou Sen using the assets available to him. You're in the habit of that, crying over facts you can't bullshit around.
Suppose we just have to pretend Ri Boku hasn't done the same fucking thing in every war he has fought?
You're an actual retard. An adult fanboy with a pea-sized brain that gets upset over imagined slights to his faves. Disgusting.
lmao, "all" Ri Boku did was deliver on the crucial set up that he planned and prepared for a year in total secrecy.
He's Prime Minister and the head of Zhao's military, you fuck, and when have you known him to execute a war on someone else's designs?
Cry all about Ou Sen using the assets available to him. You're in the habit of that, crying over facts you can't bullshit around.
Suppose we just have to pretend Ri Boku hasn't done the same fucking thing in every war he has fought?
You're an actual retard. An adult fanboy with a pea-sized brain that gets upset over imagined slights to his faves. Disgusting.
By preventing Ousen from summoning a completely independent commander to stop Shibashou for him. Lol
So my argument is “Shibashou > Ousen because Shibashou defeated Ousen”,
While your argument is “Ousen > Shibashou because Ousen occasionally has the ability to summon independent commanders who are capable of winning Ousen’s battle for him.” Lol
So my argument is “Shibashou > Ousen because Shibashou defeated Ousen”,
While your argument is “Ousen > Shibashou because Ousen occasionally has the ability to summon independent commanders who are capable of winning Ousen’s battle for him.” Lol
Chain of command. Ou Sen doesn't take a shit without planning how many wipes. Shin does not operate with autonomy. Not even Yo Tan Wa does when Ou Sen is Supreme Commander.
Except it wasn't SBS beating Ou Sen.
It was Ri Boku and SBS beating Ou Sen and Yo Tan Wa, and the mastermind of that victory was not SBS.
Should I use smaller words next time?
Except it wasn't SBS beating Ou Sen.
It was Ri Boku and SBS beating Ou Sen and Yo Tan Wa, and the mastermind of that victory was not SBS.
Should I use smaller words next time?
Are you not caught up with the manga? 788 goes over it. Start there.
So in your mind, it wasn’t Shibashou who beat Ousen, it was Shibashou + Riboku, even though all Riboku did was prevent Ousen from pulling outside help against Shibashou. Lol
First revision, but I feel good about this list.
This is purely generalship.
This is purely generalship.
SSS+ I agree with, though I would add Gakuki personally. Riboku being there alone is fine.
SSS is good. Maybe add Rinshoujou but I understand not putting him there.
SS+ & SS: Kanmei should be in the same tier as Moubu. Moubu is just a slightly more relentless Kanmei. I don't see them being a tier apart from each other. I would probably have Duke Hyou in SS+ but i don't disagree with him being near the weaker end of SS. I would drop Gouhoumei a bit, but he's going to end up here eventually so it's fine he's there ig. RSJ>Shibasaku imo but we only can really compare historical feats versus RSJ's praise from his subordinates lol.
S+ and S: Oukotsu by sheer portrayal is a SS general at least. That's probably the biggest disagreement I have with the list even though I've downplayed him a bit. Though I understand not putting him in the same tier as Kanmei. Maybe another tier should be created? lol A Qin 6 below Kochou is disrespectful. Man'U/Kochou>Ordo everyday, though I agree he belongs around here.
I agree with Kyou'En and Genpou being the "best" of the Heavenly Kings. I always saw Earl Shi as above Reiou, and I think they belong in the same tier. I don't think Keisha should be two tiers below Kochou.
A+ and A: This is where things get tricky and I disagree with some things. Though mostly because it's hard to compare weaker Great Generals and stronger regular generals. Mougou would get eaten alive by everyone in this tier. I don't see Rinbunkun in the same tier as Ouhon or Mouten(I believe you told me you think Kaishibou is just a better Rinbunkun and I agree with that).
I don't think Akou is on the same level as Earl Shi, but I do think he's on the same level as Genpou and Chougaryuu in overall abilities. Curious on your thoughts regarding his placement. SSJ and BNJ should be with at least some of the Heavenly Kings.
The A tier has lots of characters that are hard to compare. Great Generals Choutou and Seikai, Kisui, Karyoten, and Baijo. I think a tier between A+ and A could work. I'm sure Kansaro will be higher in the future.
B+ and B: Hard to scale Ranbihaku, he's an effective sword for a non-martial gg, but that's about it. Gakuhakou Kou is too low considering he actually got a victory on General Ouhon. I don't think Heki belongs in the same tier as Feego King.
B: Shoumou would decimate characters like the Kanki chick and Heki in a clash. Same with Kanou probably.
I can kinda see it both ways. Riboku is the one that orchestrated the situation, but it's still undeniable fact that Shibashou defeated Ousen in the clash between cetral armies while Ousen had number advantage on him. Even Akou admitted that it was Seika's victory.
That on it's own doesn't prove Shibashou is superior general to Ousen, but at least it proves he is superior in direct clash without interferance of outside factors. It always been a thing that strategical commanders can be absolutely terrifying if they have proper intel and preperation, but without those factors more agressive frontline generals can fold them due to having more firepower.
That on it's own doesn't prove Shibashou is superior general to Ousen, but at least it proves he is superior in direct clash without interferance of outside factors. It always been a thing that strategical commanders can be absolutely terrifying if they have proper intel and preperation, but without those factors more agressive frontline generals can fold them due to having more firepower.
Gaku Ki doesn't deserve it more than any of the SSS tiers imo. He has hype and mystique, and a great feat, but not enough of those. I'd put Haku Ki and Ren Pa ahead of him in consideration for SSS+.
My reasoning for RSJ being what is effectively a half tier below is the fact he died nowhere near the peak of his prime. He had SSS-tier potential at least but was robbed of the opportunity by fate. Essentially a gigantic, tragic what-if for Zhao's fate.
Bear in mind, this is a gauge of generalship as a whole. A martial tier would look different. I'll bullet point reasoning for brevity:
Kan Saro only needs to show more to get the bump.
Higher tiers on this list can, will and have lost to lower tiers, but in assessing generalship, I think Shou Mou was basically a somewhat smarter version of Ran Bi Haku limited by arrogance and skillset.
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Appreciate the feedback. I will be revisiting this tier list soon and doing some change. I'll also do one that just based on martial ability.
My reasoning for RSJ being what is effectively a half tier below is the fact he died nowhere near the peak of his prime. He had SSS-tier potential at least but was robbed of the opportunity by fate. Essentially a gigantic, tragic what-if for Zhao's fate.
Bear in mind, this is a gauge of generalship as a whole. A martial tier would look different. I'll bullet point reasoning for brevity:
- Kan Mei is still on par with Mou Bu and more intelligent but limited by self-obsession
- No argument against Duke Hyou
- GHM is - I think - a top 3 intellect and has the deepest bag in the series, and he was a GG in his 20s. I have him, SHK, Ka Rin and Kan Ki as all close to each other
- Shi Ba Saku gets the nod for historical reasons yes, but he also got to make the most of his prime in building Qin whereas RSJ was robbed of his
- Ou Kotsu is limited by lack of info but has always struck me as the least versatile and valuable of the 6GGs. Qin's version of Gai Mou, albeit less of a degenerate, probably.
- Man'U is Ou Kotsu but with LDR on par with Ki Sui so I have him higher as a whole package
- Ko Chou is also a complete package: great leader with a depth of knowledge and very respectable martial ability. In many respects he is better than Go Kei, who is a half tier above.
- Ordo is outright legendary in terms of leadership to be able to bring together so many disparate peoples and, appearances aside, possesses a keen mind for warfare. He has rare talents others don't.
- Earl Shi had the highest potential of the WFD and was a talent equivalent to the Q3, but he died inside when his lover did and then spent 14 years in prison. He didn't even enter his prime when he became a GG in his 20s and never really got to cultivate it.
- Kei Sha, similarly, had a higher ceiling than Ko Chou, but nowhere near the experience, and he died before as his prime barely got started.
- Mou Gou proved himself to be much better than his reputation gave him credit for, and even Ren Pa had to gave him his due, albeit begrudingly. He possessed a versatile skill set, enormous experience, a great eye for talent and a special charisma that affected even Kan Ki. I don't buy into his mediocrity at all, but I do buy in his weakness being a lack of ability to overcome the odds, which I think was a product of being humiliated by Ren Pa so often and so prominently - until Shin inspired him.
- Rin Bu Kun was a mistake lol, I initially started the list as an "overall asset" tier list that gave more weighting to martial ability, he definitely doesn't belong here, but he does belong a half step below. The guy was one of three chosen generals by Chu for a reason, and he actually had the respect of mfers like Kou Yoku. He was humiliated by Tou, but that happens.
- A Kou didn't have the experience at the highest level of warfare Gen Pou and CGR did, and I think what we saw of him was close to as good as it was going to get. He had room for more wisdom and leadership, but he was overall more or less the finished product. I like A Kou, but I find his stock is inflated by his likability.
- SSJ is highly intelligent, but not a particularly strong general. His value lies in being a fixer. An agent. Subterfuge and cloak and dagger shit. Intangibles that are rare and valuable but don't require a general's seat.
- BNJ, while very powerful, hasn't shown enough of himself as a general. His skillset is valuable but narrower to others of the same (presumed) archetypes like Man'U, for example.
- Chou Tou is pretty straightforward, I think he was at the average level of head GG for a smaller state.
- Seikai struck me as a better Fu Ki, strong from long and mid range, but weak in close range .
- Ki Sui only lacks the experience but is overall a complete package with special leadership and charisma.
- Ka Ryo Ten is a prodigious talent and genius, her contributions and abilities certainly justify her spot here for me.
- Kan Saro is a stronger version of Ki Sui with lesser leadership and charisma.
- Ba Jio could be knocked down but I absolutely rate his respect and leadership ability given the 100s of disparate clans he leads without challenge.
Kan Saro only needs to show more to get the bump.
- Ran Bi Haku is effective but extremely limited, I don't actually understand why he even had to be a general and think I was too generous placing him here.
- Buddha was powerful and intelligent and could justify a bump up the list, but he did have all the cards against Ou Hon, who still was the key to his defeat. I have no complaints if you want to bump him up, it's justifiable.
- Heki is an unremarkable talent on paper but he is versatile, reasonably intelligent, and a great leader. I see his ceiling as between Chou Tou and Mou Gou.
- Danto's skill set and style are too limited in my view but I'm open to change on that.
Higher tiers on this list can, will and have lost to lower tiers, but in assessing generalship, I think Shou Mou was basically a somewhat smarter version of Ran Bi Haku limited by arrogance and skillset.
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Appreciate the feedback. I will be revisiting this tier list soon and doing some change. I'll also do one that just based on martial ability.
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that's fair. I honestly got the impression that Gakuki was the strongest of the Golden Age of the Warring States. He was the main force in the east that "balanced China". Pretty insane hypes.
In terms of moral rising and leadership they seem to be about onpar. I would have them equal to each other on a tier list, also Kanmei is more experienced.
true. I don't expect us to learn that much more about Rinshoujou while we'll probably learn more about Shibasaku soon. I hope Hara doesn't have him be used as a hypetool like Oukotsu was.
nah I'd disagree with some of this. He probably was the worst overall(though I think Koshou was the weakest field commander). The other 3 Ou family members all showed formidable strategic and tactical abilities. I don't think Oukotsu will be an exception. Oukotsu as a general also has portrayal above Gaimou, look at how Ouki disrespected Gaimou while places the Qin 6 on a pedastel.
I only see him above Gokei in two areas. Possibly martial might, and being more rational.
Rinbukun is strong. He's the only non gg character to be hyped up as killing 100 strong enemies(Gaimou received this hype, and Kyou and Kanmei took 99/100 cities respectively). Put him, Baijo and Mougou in a tier below the Heavenly Kings and I think that's good.
True. Though Bananji actually has been hyped for tactical ability more than Man'U. lol
I used to have Choutou above Mougou for some reason, but looking at their showings it's obvious who's stronger. lol
i don't really get the comparison
Shibashou is like Kisui with the body of Kanmei. lol
In terms of moral rising and leadership they seem to be about onpar. I would have them equal to each other on a tier list, also Kanmei is more experienced.
true. I don't expect us to learn that much more about Rinshoujou while we'll probably learn more about Shibasaku soon. I hope Hara doesn't have him be used as a hypetool like Oukotsu was.
nah I'd disagree with some of this. He probably was the worst overall(though I think Koshou was the weakest field commander). The other 3 Ou family members all showed formidable strategic and tactical abilities. I don't think Oukotsu will be an exception. Oukotsu as a general also has portrayal above Gaimou, look at how Ouki disrespected Gaimou while places the Qin 6 on a pedastel.
I only see him above Gokei in two areas. Possibly martial might, and being more rational.
Rinbukun is strong. He's the only non gg character to be hyped up as killing 100 strong enemies(Gaimou received this hype, and Kyou and Kanmei took 99/100 cities respectively). Put him, Baijo and Mougou in a tier below the Heavenly Kings and I think that's good.
True. Though Bananji actually has been hyped for tactical ability more than Man'U. lol
I used to have Choutou above Mougou for some reason, but looking at their showings it's obvious who's stronger. lol
i don't really get the comparison
Shibashou is like Kisui with the body of Kanmei. lol
Gaku Ki's time was some 60 years ago. By the Kingdom timeline he preceded the height of the action with 6GGs and their rivals. All the same, I think he would've come up short against the relentless ruthlessness of Haku Ki and the sheer adaptability and might of Ren Pa.
I don't think their leaderships abilities are on par at all. It's one thing to raise morale as the strongest general of the strongest state, at the head of an elite army with superior numbers. I don't think Kan Mei had it in him to turn terrified peasants into hardened butchers in a matter of hours against elite opposition.
Kan Mei was more intelligent and well rounded, a man fit for the office he occupied, but his vanity and narcissism were too deep-rooted for him to ever have it in him to connect to people the way Mou Bu did and continues to.
I hope not, but I also don't think he would given the sheer accomplishments Shi Ba Saku has to his name.
The real Ou Kotsu had wins over Ren Pa among other achievements and accolades. I believe Ou Ki got all that and then some, whereas Kingdom Ou Kotsu does not strike me as anything other than an inferior Mou Bu - which is still a monster by any measure. I have no doubt he was well educated and all that, but so was Mou Bu, and no one can credibly doubt his ability.
I also think you've misinterpreted Ou Ki's thoughts on Gai Mou. If he didn't respect him, he'd just have killed him and deprived Wei of a centre piece at a time that would've serve Qin, and more important, King Sho. We know from his dealings with Shou Mou and Chou Katsu that he doesn't have any issue killing those he finds unworthy or beneath him. Same goes for Ren Pa, really.
Gai Mou is the real deal. Whatever his disagreements with Ou Ki and Ren Pa's romanticised views of war, whatever his own cynical views, his blows betray the weight of a true Great General of the Heavens. Shin knew it in an instant.
Ko Chou is a better leader of men, and only a shade lighter in intellect. I don't think Hara had any subtle intentions in depicting him and Ou Sen coming to the same realisation at the same time.
Rin Bu Kun wasn't a GG in Chu, but he would've been in every other state, especially the smaller ones. He wasn't chosen as a representative of Chu's might if not for that fact, and even Kan Mei had a measure of respect for him. He would've risen to a higher tier if Tou had allowed it. I think he didn't have that many opportunities in Chu because of how overwhelming their strength was.
Ba Jio is a great leader, but only in his capacity as a lieutenant. He doesn't have the ambition all elite generals (should) have, even in the world he's from. Who knows where he'll end up though.
BNJ was acknowledged mostly in words and show great awareness at Shukai, but Man'U held back the hordes of Chu with deeds. A smaller state with fewer friends and resources couldn't survive without tactical brilliance in addition to martial might.
Man'U, like Gai Mou, wasn't on his A-game in the one arc we saw him, because he wasn't to moved to such. It's an incomplete picture to say the least.
I think that's because the dialogue and thoughts expressed by characters would have you believe Mou Gou was a bumbling idiot that failed upwards his entire career.
There is a reason why I always hammer on about not taking these things at face value in Kingdom. Hara is great at wiping up anticipation and tension quickly through pace and dialogue, but it's not all upside. The downside is that people allow certain impressions to lock in their minds forever.
Completeness of skill set and charisma, only Ki Sui is more charismatic and gifted as a leader than Kan Saro is strong. I reckon their intellect is about the same.
SBS is like that too, but several tiers above, and I'd say he's closer in body type to Buddha, Gai Mou or Rozo than Kan Mei, but I get your point.
I don't think their leaderships abilities are on par at all. It's one thing to raise morale as the strongest general of the strongest state, at the head of an elite army with superior numbers. I don't think Kan Mei had it in him to turn terrified peasants into hardened butchers in a matter of hours against elite opposition.
Kan Mei was more intelligent and well rounded, a man fit for the office he occupied, but his vanity and narcissism were too deep-rooted for him to ever have it in him to connect to people the way Mou Bu did and continues to.
I hope not, but I also don't think he would given the sheer accomplishments Shi Ba Saku has to his name.
The real Ou Kotsu had wins over Ren Pa among other achievements and accolades. I believe Ou Ki got all that and then some, whereas Kingdom Ou Kotsu does not strike me as anything other than an inferior Mou Bu - which is still a monster by any measure. I have no doubt he was well educated and all that, but so was Mou Bu, and no one can credibly doubt his ability.
I also think you've misinterpreted Ou Ki's thoughts on Gai Mou. If he didn't respect him, he'd just have killed him and deprived Wei of a centre piece at a time that would've serve Qin, and more important, King Sho. We know from his dealings with Shou Mou and Chou Katsu that he doesn't have any issue killing those he finds unworthy or beneath him. Same goes for Ren Pa, really.
Gai Mou is the real deal. Whatever his disagreements with Ou Ki and Ren Pa's romanticised views of war, whatever his own cynical views, his blows betray the weight of a true Great General of the Heavens. Shin knew it in an instant.
Ko Chou is a better leader of men, and only a shade lighter in intellect. I don't think Hara had any subtle intentions in depicting him and Ou Sen coming to the same realisation at the same time.
Rin Bu Kun wasn't a GG in Chu, but he would've been in every other state, especially the smaller ones. He wasn't chosen as a representative of Chu's might if not for that fact, and even Kan Mei had a measure of respect for him. He would've risen to a higher tier if Tou had allowed it. I think he didn't have that many opportunities in Chu because of how overwhelming their strength was.
Ba Jio is a great leader, but only in his capacity as a lieutenant. He doesn't have the ambition all elite generals (should) have, even in the world he's from. Who knows where he'll end up though.
BNJ was acknowledged mostly in words and show great awareness at Shukai, but Man'U held back the hordes of Chu with deeds. A smaller state with fewer friends and resources couldn't survive without tactical brilliance in addition to martial might.
Man'U, like Gai Mou, wasn't on his A-game in the one arc we saw him, because he wasn't to moved to such. It's an incomplete picture to say the least.
I think that's because the dialogue and thoughts expressed by characters would have you believe Mou Gou was a bumbling idiot that failed upwards his entire career.
There is a reason why I always hammer on about not taking these things at face value in Kingdom. Hara is great at wiping up anticipation and tension quickly through pace and dialogue, but it's not all upside. The downside is that people allow certain impressions to lock in their minds forever.
Completeness of skill set and charisma, only Ki Sui is more charismatic and gifted as a leader than Kan Saro is strong. I reckon their intellect is about the same.
SBS is like that too, but several tiers above, and I'd say he's closer in body type to Buddha, Gai Mou or Rozo than Kan Mei, but I get your point.
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