Versus Battle Minato vs Tobirama

Who wins?

  • Draw or toss up

  • Minato extreme difficulty

  • Minato high difficulty

  • Minato medium difficulty

  • Minato low difficulty

  • Tobirama extreme difficulty

  • Tobirama high difficulty

  • Tobirama medium difficulty

  • Tobirama low difficulty


Results are only viewable after voting.

Marimo_420

Don't look here
.
#26
Tobirama vs. Minato

A post.

I would first like to commend a well done to the Minato fandom, for mounting a formidable defence on his part, which is presented nicely in this thread. All points are extremely detailed and well versed. It was beautiful to see.
:shocking:

Now I would now like to extend an apologetic commiserations since it's about to be crushed.
:sweat:

Tobirama I find is massively underrated by most of the Naruto fandom. This can be related to his slightly antagonistic views towards the Uchiha, or his supposed "death" on the hands of the Kinkaku force. Either way both reasons suck.

His Uchiha views- I feel like this is a big reason for the Tobirama downplay we get to see. With most antagonists or characters with "extremists" views, like for say Akainu, regardless of his own feats or portrayal they will be downplayed to the dirt. (I don't see it on this thread here for Tobi thank god, but it was prevalent before on other forums or threads). This is disgusting. Justice needs to be carried out for Tobirama, since he didn't do anything wrong.

Kinkaku force-


The Kinkaku force are a group consisting of 20 elite Shinobis who are regarded as the worst criminals ever in the history of the Hidden Cloud. Their leaders Kinkaku and Ginkaku being present on the battlefield was enough to cause visible stress to the current Raikage. The only other people who received such hype was the other reanimated kages. No other reanimation created this level of distress to the Raikage or other kages.

When reanimated and fighting, the brothers seemed almost too cocky due to their reputation and also due to their ability to wield both the tools of the sage of 6 paths and the chakra of Kurama. It should be noted, no normal humans would ever be able to wield such tools or even hope survive inside of Kurama, much less eat him. This overconfidence then lead to their downfall with the ninja alliance and Durai, who while was strong, (a Kage candidate and right hand of the Raikage), it was essentially PIS as to how he escaped the gourd, and captured the sage tools. If the siblings had gone all out and not messed around (using their pseudo jinchuriki form) , I don't doubt that the fight would have even lasted minutes. And since they would have been an invaluable asset in the war, they had to be taken out of the story quickly.

I heavily, heavily doubt they had the same attitude when facing Tobirama along with their other 18 elite members. Keep in mind that when Tobirama was ambushed he was going in for a peace treaty -he would be a lot more casual than usual/ not as battle ready.

Now, it would be stupid to say someone with Tobi's personality wouldn't be at least be on guard a little, but I don't think he would assume he was to be targeted by such a group. Either way he survived an encounter with 2 serious pseudo jinchuriki equipped with hax sage tools, while also being pressured by 18 other elite ninjas worthy enough to be part of said group. That's a lot of manpower. I don't know how Minato would have fared here. Imagine being ambushed point blank with such a group while at a peace treaty conference? What If he didn't have time to set up his seals? I feel he could have died in a similar circumstance if he didn't have seals set up way outside of the meeting place.


Also notice what Tsunade says in the top right panel. "Brought to the brink of death". Tobirama didn't actually die here. He also never got sealed. This speaks volume of how calculating/ cunning this man really is. Tobirama is able to survive the encounter against hax which can seal you for just speaking while under massive pressure.

While I understand the 2 brothers didn't exactly shine in the war arc, it was mostly down to PIS and their own overconfidence. They still have great portrayal overall.



With that out of the way, I would like you understand Tobirama's nature and abilities. Tobirama is known as a great tactical fighter, his speed as a shinobi, his sensory abilities, and for his unparalleled usage of the water technique. He is also renowned for his inventions of various techniques forbidden and non- forbidden alike, most notably with the "reanimation" the "shadow clones" and the "flying thunder God". His sensory skills is also highlighted hard when he can accurately guess who's tracking them, and their numbers. I have also found this quote, but it is without a source however so take it with a grain of salt. -"Tobirama could detect the chakra of people who were several countries away. He could even identify the ancestry of a person with the help of their chakra." All in all, it's fair to say he won't get blindsided.

Although he is mostly known for the above reasons, when first reintroduced into the story along with the other 3 hokages, his power is the first thing to be highlighted along with his impressive physical strength.

Tobi's power-

His presence/ chakra along with him just lifting a single finger was able to scare/ surprise everyone in the room bar Hashirama. This includes an powered up version of Sasuke with EMS who has previously faced and survived against multiple kages in the 5 kage summit, the strongest sannin imbued with "mostly hashirama cells", another "God of Shinobi" in Hiruzen and the other man in this matchup himself Minato. A mere flex of his chakra and he had everyone shitting themselves. A mere flex nothing more. No matter how you twist it, Tobirama is far more powerful than Minato. Minato has no portrayal or feats that can cover this gap. He hasn't had any immense aura moments since he simply doesn't possess such a large reserve of chakra pool.



Also notice while using formation of the 4 red suns to seal the 10 tails, Minato himself uses his Kurama mode to do so. He could have done this transformation earlier or later depending on the situation, but he himself chooses this moment to do so. What this does tell us is that he's matching the chakra levels to the other 3 kages so the seal can be equally strong, or as strong as it can be.- So the others wouldn't have to lower their chakra. (I feel Hiruzen limited the seal here)

Tobi's physical strength-

Again this physical prowess is merely a flex. This was a mere threat to Orochimaru. He told him he cannot be stopped and to showcase his ability, he cracked a wall just with his base grip strength. He outclasses Minato in this aspect by far as well. I don't doubt he would have caved the wall in within the next second, if Orochimaru hadn't stopped him due to his possession of Hashirama cells. Come on though, let's be real here - it's mofo Hashirama cells.

While I do acknowledge Minato himself is very strong physically in his own right, there is no evidence of him ever coming close to Tobi's own physical stats.


All of the above also just proves how much more hype his aforementioned abilities are, which is exactly why he isn't simply just renowned for his sheer power but rather his speed and other abilities.


Speed-
Both Tobirama and Minato were known as the "fastest shinobi alive" within their respective era and due to their usage of the FTG. Minato is also outright stated to have an upgraded version of the FTG, or at least is superior in usage of it to Tobirama's.

Now a lot of users have mentioned "Teleportation is just teleportation and they're both equal" and in that regard and I agree. However Tobirama himself has stated Minato is much better at teleportation. What exactly this entails I don't really know. Minato is also more versatile as he uses multiple kunais layered across the battlefield as opposed to just seals. This is shown multiple times within the show, in life and in death. He was also the one to set up the markings for the 4 Red Suns at which Tobi also remarks at.

But let's take a look at all of the feats. If we look within his life, Minato's best feats were blitzing a non-prime A's chakra mode and a non-prime Obito. Even then, a non-prime Bee was able to react and was ready to off Minato in 1 v 1 killing scenario. Also while he did indeed beat Obito, it was only by the slightest of margins.


Tobirama is massively above Bee and Obito in terms of reaction time and as well as movement speed. I just can't see how he will never tag Minato. Within the war, he has showcased feats which can possibly make him the fastest shinobi there. He has shown the ability to tag Juubito (a jinchuriki version of prime Obito) on multiple occasions and to place tags on him without him even noticing.


Another showcase of portrayal. Why use these two to demonstrate Obito's ascension as the 10 tails host? Simple. They are the 2 strongest ninjas in the alliance and they just have gotten speed blitzt by Juubito. It's to show the readers that the alliance are in an extremely dire situation. Why not use Minato- his teacher, or even Hiruzen the third? It's because the first 2 hokages eclipse them. Notice the words "the strongest and pure evil". The author chooses the 2 strongest allies to hype up the "main" villain with.




While both base Hashirama and Tobirama got blitz by Obito, only one of them was fast enough to place multiple seals on his body, which includes multiple exploding tags and his FTG seals. We can say Tobirama's reaction speed is at least faster than Base Hashirama. This is someone who can keep up with and beat Madara. Could Minato have faster reaction time than Base Hashirama? I think not.

You can also see that until Tobi tells them to scatter not one of the hokages including Minato, or anyone in the alliance which includes Naruto and Sasuke, even notice he had placed any seals. Not even Juubito himself noticed this. Tobi's just that fast. Minato even openly marvels at Tobirama's speed and FTG on the third page. Take a good look.

:shocking:
Now, let's have a look at how Minato fared in a similar situation-




He goes on an attack, gets tagged but manages to escape. However, he doesn't have enough speed to place any other attacks or seals on Obito, unlike Tobirama. Also Minato is the now the one having attacks attached to him, almost like a role reversal. He fails to notice this, as does Sasuke and Naruto. Now, who saves him, EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto from this situation? It's not himself nor Sasuke or Naruto. No it's Tobirama. He's simply the fastest.



Tobirama understands the situation very well. So much so that he's fast enough to make a clone, and have said clone speed blitz Minato who's trying to grasp at the ball in the second panel; EMS Sasuke, KCM Naruto as well as Juubito himself as seen with the exclamation mark. Note that this is all happening while the ball is in the middle of detonating. He literally speed blitz an explosion. Tobi had enough time to grab the ball out of Minato, teleport himself behind Juubito, and thrust it towards him while it hasn't finished exploding. That's speed. I don't know why you lot are trying so hard to downplay this?
Minato pales in comparison. Keep in mind that this is Minato in his KCM as well. Base Minato would get rocked.


I keep on mentioning reaction speed and his calculating disposition so we can go into that next. Tobirama is ruthless and he will take every opportunity presented to him no matter how small. He notices small changes within his opponents and can think rationally under heavy pressure, while most likely come up with suitable plans for the specific situation. This is presented in the above feats, and all throughout the war.





Although unsuccessful, they managed to land the attack on Juubito using a plan that Tobi came up with mere moments ago, while Sasuke and Naruto are already charging and heading forward. That's tactics. That's the mental speed at which Tobirama Senju thinks at.

And in the next chapter, we get to see his attention to detail really shine-



Firstly he's the only one out of the alliance to notice that Minato isn't resurrecting like usual even with a reanimated body. And by using a small information like this, he can deduce what techniques Obito in his new form is utilising.


And secondly, he along Naruto are the only ones to notice senjustu works on Juubito, with a singular attack that didn't get negated. Another person who doesn't notice this is a certain sage mode practitioner....
:catsure:




He then notices Naruto is in sage mode and without verbal communication, proceeds to blitz Juubito once again and teleports Naruto on top of him. This time his bet pays off. Again, this just how ridiculously fast Tobirama processes things, and how high of a logical thinker he really is.

We also need to understand that Tobirama's mentality has never been shaken on the show. He's always remained cool, calm, rational and ruthless. He has never broken character once in lifetime or when reanimated. Minato can falter and he shown to be prone to panic. Tobirama is a different breed.





This is probably the best portrayal for Tobirama in the series. Look at Madara is saying. He's trashing on both Hashi and Tobi's power level and has even proceeded to thank the gods for the good fortune. He hasn't acknowledged Minato in the slightest even after witnessing him in the war. He also states "he's got the edge right now" meaning Tobirama was on a similar pedestal to himself in life. Note also that he pays special attention to Tobirama's "lack of speed". This is the same dude who was blitzing the 10 tails Jinchuriki on multiple occasions. How much faster was he when he was alive?



In conclusion, we can say Minato gets bodied, hard.
Tobirama is by far the stronger physically and mentally,while his presence/ chakra is on another tier in comparison to Minato. His speed both movement wise and reaction wise also eclipses Minato's. Note that he achieves all the above feats while he's not at full power and Minato is in his KCM mode. That is not in his base. Tobirama is above in all stats apart from durability, as this would probably be the same for both.



Minato does have a "superior version of the FTG" which let's be real - apart from the number of locations he can teleport to it isn't anything special. His speed doesn't increase.
Nothing else Minato has will phase Tobirama. He's also known as a sealing justu specialist and his rasengan, but that isn't enough to put Tobi down. He's also shown using the same amount of sealing justus as Tobirama is shown using water justus in the war arc - 0; which coincidentally in the exact numerical percentage of Minato winning against Tobirama - 0%.
:afrokappa:

While Base Minato is indeed strong, and he most definitely deserves his title of Hokage, his overall battle ability is vastly overrated. Tobirama claps. I gave it a high diff as I don't want to disrespect him, but a mid diff would indeed suffice as my boy Xione has said.

Prime Tobirama in life at full power vs Minato without KCM is a mismatch.
:kata:





To debunk some bits I've read-
"Minato would simply teleport out of there if he was in the same situation as Tobirama was against Madara" First of all Madara would regard him as an ant. Second of all, Minato is a lot slower than Tobi, so he would end up in a worse position. And lastly, the chakra rods of the 6 paths disrupts all forms of chakra as seen multiple times, and most notably in Naruto vs Pein- so no he simply can't "just teleport out of there"


"Death reaper seal if needed" Nope. Minato needs some sort of seal to hold Tobirama in the first place to even consider using the Death Reaper. The moment he tries a tug of war like the 3rd did vs Orochimaru, Tobirama will kick his head clean off. His physicals are way above Minato's.


@Cinera I mean Kisame is known as a "bijuu without a tail" but I still believe in my boy Tobi. His powers were heavily retconned as were Hashirama's from their supposed 30% reanimation. Hashirama at 30% could apparently only produce enough wood to cover a roof. No where near comparable to what absurd feats War Hashi pulled out let alone in his Prime. I think the same case can somewhat be made for Tobirama. The only reason he didn't showcase his water jutsus in the war is because he really didn't want to drown his allies.
:milaugh:


Edit- Sage mode is also a non- factor. It requires prep time, something Tobirama will not give. And he also mentions his sage mode utilisation is worse than his master Jiraya. Now it's fair to say that seems like bs when he was rocking a perfect sage mode not even moments later, however we need to understand "reanimation".

Reanimation is a justu that gives an immortal body with an infinite chakra. So while their chakra pool is at a similar level to what they while alive, it never depletes. This makes more sense as to why Minato achieves perfect sage mode and also adds sense to why Minato would make such a statement.
 
Last edited:

Bogard

Copy Ninja
.
#28
@Marimo_420 nice post, but i think you mixed up a few things

> There were 2 events in the Tobirama / Kinkaku thing. The first event when Tobirama was ambushed was when he was with the second Raikage, and Kinkaku and Ginkaku were alone, and it's that event that Tobirama barely survived

In the second event however is when the Kinkaku squad was mentioned to have been a group of 20shinobis, and it's where Tobirama actually died(while declaring Hiruzen as the next hokage), though it wasn't actually clarified if Kinkaku was part of the group or if it was just a squad that decided to take over his name

Pay in mind as well that during this instance, Tobirama was alongside 6 other people with Hokage candidate(Hiruzen), Danzo and co, and they still thought they stood no chance against the squad outside of using a lure(who would be sure to die) for the rest to escape

> About Tobirama's chakra, i believe many people mistake chakra strength with chakra potency. Your arguments resolve around Tobirama's chakra strength, but it's something Hiruzen / Orochimaru could already do in part1, and unlike Tobirama they did it with air pressure alone(no physical pressure)

And this was a old Hiruzen who was shown to have 3 in chakra / stamina in the databook
A Hiruzen whose chakra levels became so low that just performing shadow clones was viewed as dangerous for him

And Hiruzen was one of the contributors in the Hokage barrier.

On the other hand, we know you need huge chakra reserve to be able to use sage mode

So no way that Kyubi chakra mode was really needed for Minato to maintain the barrier. Besides this, just before contributing in the barrier, Minato teleported Jubi's TBB which made Hachibi and his tbbs look like shit

And thus may have been part of the reason why Minato may have wanted to conserve some stamina for the barrier. At one point during the war, Tobirama could only teleport one person for example, and he never really teleported anything as big as Jubi's TBB during that war

On the other hand, judging by his shadow clones limits when contributing in a barrier even Hiruzen could contribute in

It's safe to say that his chakra level is no higher than 3 times than old Hiruzen's who has low chakra reserve

With Hashirama potentially having 4 times as much(he could created 11 shadow clones)


In Minato's case however, his limit wasn't pointed out considering he only created the necessary shadow clone to finish Obito

> I see you also used interception feats concerning Tobirama's speed argument, but interception feats don't really have the same value since the person comes from the background with no one suspecting him. It's not that different from this for example where Base Naruto saved Sakura literally from Sasuke's hand while unsuspectingly coming out of nowhere



Or even this where Hiruzen came from the background to save Naruto faster than Tobirama, with Tobirama unaware of his presence

> And in the Jubito example, you compared a brain-off Jubito to a Jubito will full mastery when not the consciousness allows someone to react to attack faster, but the full mastery of the beast may have granted some additional power / speed boost to Jubito

Furthermore, Hiruzen reacted a bit to brain off Jubito's TSB, with the TSB's mentioned to have some time limit between each alterations


Literally an instance later, we saw Naruto / Minato reacting to brain off Jubito faster than he finish the transformation of his TSB allowing him to destroy his targets

Tobirama on the other hand died(if not edo) to accomplish a similar feat

Minato could also teleport in and out of Madara's TSB(faster than it could erase his body) as well as the fastest step of Gai's 8gate technique


> As for the intelligence argument, i agree first of all that Tobirama is a very intelligent character, one of the smartest in the manga, one of the most knowledgeable as well. In fact, in terms of knowledge, he already showed superiority to Minato, but i'd like to point out the fact he may have more known about sage techniques because he is a Senju, who are direct descendant of sage of six paths

And in terms of smart, i'd say they are more or less equals. Yes there is obviously the instance against Jubito where Tobirama noticed Jubito's TSB's weakness faster than Minato, but something that i think you overlook is the fact that there was a emotional conflict involved between Minato and Obito there, which may have destabilized him at that moment, explaining why he didn't quickly noticed it since his mind was somewhere else, trying to understand his student, his errors



When he was more focused however, he already showed he could at times come up with a better solution than Tobirama thought of(in this instance, Tobirama was only thinking about teleporting the TBBs one by one, when Minato brought up the point it was possible to teleport the entire tree)

He also was the one who quickly analyzed the fort and weakpoint of kamui the first time he encountered the jutsu(against Obito), quickly analzed Madara's TSB's control limit as well, before Kakashi(one of the smartest ninja in the manga)

As for praising, there is this scene where Rinne-Madara admits he waited for Minato to be out before attempting anything or even the man himself in multiple instances praising Minato's skill as higher than his own
 

Marimo_420

Don't look here
.
#29
@Bogard
Ah thanks for clearing some bits up for me. Looks like my Naruto history is a bit rusty. :catcry:
Regardless, it seems the Ginkaku/Kinkaku siblings were even more underutilised than I thought if they could fight against 2 kages. And the group themselves seem a bit op if they can take Tobi and his squad.

-Yes I agree and have included the scene where Tobirama admits Minato does have better control of FTG/ is more versatile on multiple occasions. His FTG does also allows him to teleport much larger things such as the Juubi's talied beast bomb.

- I also agree looking back now, they are more or less smart comparatively speaking and I would say they both eclipse Kakashi who is one of the most tactical ninjas to ever exist. However, I would still say Tobirama's attention to detail is somewhat sharper. His edo tensei and senjustu observations are one of his many.


Some bits I would disagree/ debate on
Part one Orochimaru vs Hiruzen
- Yes they did cause a minor crack to occur, but that was in a 1 v 1 battle with a full powered face off where both were fully intending to kill each other. That's them fully serious and they are shown to be equal. Tobirama on the other hand, while I admit he is making a semi-serious threat to Sasuke, I very much doubt he's at full power/ fully serious. You also need to note that a powered up Orochimaru consisting of mostly hashirama cells, and Hiruzen are also included in the list of people who were present and shook of Tobirama lifting a single finger. Others include Minato himself, and an powered up EMS Saskue who didn't care for the 4th Raikages own monstrous charkra or any of the other kages for that matter. The only one in the room who didn't care or proceeded to actually stop him was Hashi. But that's just Hashirama tho. :catcry:


Shadow clones/ Wood clones
- I believe this is the restriction placed by the reanimation itself. He says "what an embarresment" as to show his disdain to the limit in his Edo Tensei form. I highly doubt a hokage of his calibre would be making less clones than part 1 Naruto, or even Part 1 Kakashi while at the brink of chakra exhaustion on the great Great Naruto Bridge. Also it would be stupid to say Hashirama's limit is 11 clones when in his prime, he was keeping the tailed beasts as pets.


Sasuke/ Sakura Stituation-
- Come on now, you cannot be comparing these two situations. The first one includes a nearly blind Sasuke (as indicated by his shaded gaze) who's sole intention at that moment was to murder Sakura. He doesn't even have his base sharingan active, nor is he focused on anyone else.

The second one for Tobi- He makes a clone then proceeds to grab the sage ball faster than KCM Minato who is a milli second away from touching it, all while it's in mid-denotation. Juubito's focus is still quite clearly still on the group but he doesn't notice Tobirama jumping in. Tobi then proceeds to blizt an explosion and has time to comment before thrusting it at Juubito who still didn't notice him up until that point. This is a full clear minded Obito by the way. KCM Minato did get saved.

- Hiruzen- Lmao yeah he just appeared out of no- where, this is similar to the Sasuke/ Sakura case. No ones focused on him.

Also on the first "speed" feat I've posted. I admit that was a off mind Obito since it's seconds after he did turn into a host after all. However, you have to look at everything that happens there. Both Hashirama and Tobirama get speed blitz as they weren't ready for such an increase in speed. Everyone else is stunned by Jubito's speed including a remark from Minato -"so swift".
But none of them including an off mind Jubito or Minato for that matter even notice that Tobirama has already counterattacked with multiple tags and seals. Well not until he tells them all to scatter. His reaction speed is at the very least better than Base Hashirama who couldn't counterattack at all.

Hiruzen and everyone else reacted a bit to an off mind Obito after seeing his first speed feat, as they had time to adapt. However even Hiruzen fails to achieve much apart from dodging slightly. No sign of a counterattack which Tobi did.

I will admit Minato's feats of blitzing an off mind Tobi, and getting the 6 balls whil 8th gate Gai is in mid step are extremely impressive; I'm not calling his slow either. I just believe that Tobi is faster. He literally saved him from an explosion, while it in mid-explosion.



You also need to note than a non- full powered Tobi while slower than in his prime has such impressive feats to his name while Minato is keeping up in his KCM. Op has asked for a Tobirama vs Minato in base (no KCM as he didn't have this power in life) It's a mismatch.

Minato's best feat while alive was beating a non-prime Obito and blizting a non-prime A. I means it is Obito and he does have hax but he beat him by the smallest by magins. I will also say this again, a non- prime Bee was able to react and was ready to commit a double homicide against Minato.



Let's say for arguments sake, their speed are nearly equal? I mean KCM Minato didn't outright show anything to place him above Tobirama. But let's say they're about equalish in base as Prime Tobirama and as end of life Minato.

What does Minato have over him? He has the versatility and a superior "version" of the FTG where he can teleport to multiple locations via his kunais and and he can teleport way larger mass/ masses of chakra. And the rasengan.

- In physical strength and in mental strength Tobirama is far stronger. Tobirama has never faltered or panicked in his lifetime or in the war. He is ruthless.
- Tobirama also has more number of techniques (that we don't get to see:catcry:. This dude created every justu)
- His reaction speed surpasses most others to the point that everyone including Minato don't realise he's even attacked at all.
- Rasangan is a serious technique but he needs to land it. If bee can react to him, I don't doubt one of the best sensory ninjas to ever live couldn't do the same.
- Tobirama can link himself to every seal of Minato if he tags him. It is unknown if Minato could do the same.


On the Minato portrayal by Madara-
Yes that is very impressive and so is his "run on sight" tag that Minato has gathered. Those are absolutely bad-ass portrayals of the many that he has gathered. Minato was unparalleled in his generation but that cannot be said if compared to the warring states. Prime Madara, Hashi and Tobi are above.

You also need to note that Madara was a husk of a man living off of Hashirama cells at that point in time when he was in hiding. He seemed to have a rather skinny form to the point it was anorexic. He is right to fear the strongest Shinobi in that era while he's reduced to that form, with a very small battle power. People like Tobirama didn't exist in the village at that point in time.
 
Last edited:

Cinera

𝕰𝖑 π•­π–—π–Žπ–™π–†π–“π–“π–Žπ–†
.
#33
I feel he could have died in a similar circumstance if he didn't have seals set up way outside of the meeting place.
To my knowledge, he's the only Shinobi with flee on sight orders.

He canonically decimated an army. Taking on multiple opponents is where Minato excels.


Either way he survived an encounter with 2 serious pseudo jinchuriki equipped with hax sage tools, while also being pressured by 18 other elite ninjas worthy enough to be part of said group. That's a lot of manpower. I don't know how Minato would have fared here. Imagine being ambushed point blank with such a group while at a peace treaty conference? What If he didn't have time to set up his seals?
Minato is smart enough to not get caught with his pants down. It's highly unlikely he wouldn't set up some seals before hand. It's just good sense. Minato is the only shinobi that scored higher marks than Itachi Uchiha, he's intended to be a genius.


place.

Also
Broken panel, I recommend uploading images to Imgur (or another image host) prior to linking them.

There are multiple other broken images, so I've quoted them below.


Tobi's power-
His
pool.


Also
Itachi had below average chakra reserves IIRC (his stamina was 2.5), he was still far more formidable than most people with vastly superior reserves.


No matter how you twist it, Tobirama is far more powerful than Minato. Minato has no portrayal or feats that can cover this gap. He hasn't had any immense aura moments since he simply doesn't possess such a large reserve of chakra pool.
Tobirama has stronger chakra and a larger chakra pool. That doesn't translate to being stronger, the difference in chakra between Itachi and Kisame was probably even more extreme.


Tobi's physical strength-
Again

He outclasses Minato in this aspect by far as well.
Kisame and Itachi again, physical strength doesn't translate to superior combat ability.


margins.

Tobirama
noticing.

Another
with.



While

Could Minato have faster reaction time than Base Hashirama? I think not.
Why not? I'm not sure why Minato has to be below Base Hashirama in reaction speed? Itachi seemed to have considerably better reflexes than Nagato despite being below him in general combat ability.


situation-



He
fastest.


Tobirama
war.




Although
-


Firstly
utilising.

And
practitioner....
:catsure:



He

His speed doesn't increase.
Why so sure? Minato not only arrived at the battlefield significantly before Tobirama (unless I'm mistaken) he also placed several tags as well. I see no reason to assume that their teleportation is the same speed given that Hiruzen complimented Minato's speed and Tobirama noted Minato's superiority with the technique.

Didn't Minato also have an extra stage to the technique?


And he also mentions his sage mode utilisation is worse than his master Jiraya.
I think you answered this yourself:
Now it's fair to say that seems like bs when he was rocking a perfect sage mode not even moments later

Reanimation is a justu that gives an immortal body with an infinite chakra. So while their chakra pool is at a similar level to what they while alive, it never depletes. This makes more sense as to why Minato achieves perfect sage mode and also adds sense to why Minato would make such a statement.
I am not sold on this TBH. Minato may have simply had high standards or have been humble.


Edit- Sage mode is also a non- factor. It requires prep time, something Tobirama will not give.
Minato can summon the frogs to help him gather the requisite chakra. His superior FTG and sealing/barrier techniques should let him buy more than enough time.

Sage Mode boosts Minato's already considerable reflexes in addition to his speed, strength and chakra pool.


I agree that Tobirama has better portrayal, and Tobirama appears to be > Minato in overall combat ability. That doesn't necessarily mean he would win this match up, especially if Minato's FTG is indeed faster and he can summon the frogs to help with Sage Mode.

The broken panels may have changed things though.
 

Bogard

Copy Ninja
.
#35
I agree that Tobirama has better portrayal, and Tobirama appears to be > Minato in overall combat ability. That doesn't necessarily mean he would win this match up, especially if Minato's FTG is indeed faster and he can summon the frogs to help with Sage Mode.
I don't think so. Tobirama was portrayed around MS Izuna's level from the continuous battles they had against each other from childhood


They clashed multiple times with Izuna not having any problem with his combat speed. Of course, he ended up killing Izuna at one point, but the way Madara spoke made it seem like he took advantage of a distraction during the widespread battle between Uchihas and Senjus to do it

With Kinkaku / Ginkaku as mentioned before portrayed above him since they defeated him in the past even when he had the Nidaime Raikage with him

Minato on the other hand was portrayed to be considerably above MS Obito(who had both Uchiha and Senju powers with forbidden techniques, six path jutsu and co), reacting faster than his MS hax allowing him to be intangible even unconsciously mere moments after encountering his jutsu all that despite lacking knowledge on him when Obito on the other hand was fully prepared with full knowledge on him





Could fight / pressure both A(fastest alive outside of himself) and B at the same time from their first encounter, with them fighting multiple times against each other, yet B still shivers from just thinking of him, with A literally thinking he was unsurpassable




And the A / B duo was stronger than Kinkaku / Ginkaku, not to mention his flee on sight orders during the war


He also had considerable superior portrayal in speed which is their main forte

> Blitzed the other Hokages - Tobirama included on his way to the battlefield, while still having enough time to make a small trip on a coast where he landed his kunai, come to redirect Juubi's bijuudama, spreading other kunais over the battlefield kilometers apart(the area where he spread his kunais were far greater than the Juubi) and having a small conversation with Naruto, Sakura and co, all that before Tobirama and co actually came

> Hiruzen highlighted his superior speed during the above feat, while getting even more impressed knowing he even had time to scatter his kunais all over the battlefield, with Tobirama himself also baffled by his speed and striking speed

And all of these were accomplished in base. The databook also further highlight his speed as being the greatest. He was the fastest character in Naruto before the arrival of Juubijins


His Edo base form(mentioned to be slightly weaker than his alive base form) could teleport in and out between 8 gate Gai's fastest step(who was faster than Juubijin Madara) and Juubijin Madara's truth seeking balls without getting erased



And this is without taking into consideration the SM enhancements that should drastically increase his overall stats.
 

Cinera

𝕰𝖑 π•­π–—π–Žπ–™π–†π–“π–“π–Žπ–†
.
#36
I don't think so. Tobirama was portrayed around MS Izuna's level from the continuous battles they had against each other from childhood


They clashed multiple times with Izuna not having any problem with his combat speed. Of course, he ended up killing Izuna at one point, but the way Madara spoke made it seem like he took advantage of a distraction during the widespread battle between Uchihas and Senjus to do it

With Kinkaku / Ginkaku as mentioned before portrayed above him since they defeated him in the past even when he had the Nidaime Raikage with him

Minato on the other hand was portrayed to be considerably above MS Obito(who had both Uchiha and Senju powers with forbidden techniques, six path jutsu and co), reacting faster than his MS hax allowing him to be intangible even unconsciously mere moments after encountering his jutsu all that despite lacking knowledge on him when Obito on the other hand was fully prepared with full knowledge on him





Could fight / pressure both A(fastest alive outside of himself) and B at the same time from their first encounter, with them fighting multiple times against each other, yet B still shivers from just thinking of him, with A literally thinking he was unsurpassable




And the A / B duo was stronger than Kinkaku / Ginkaku, not to mention his flee on sight orders during the war


He also had considerable superior portrayal in speed which is their main forte

> Blitzed the other Hokages - Tobirama included on his way to the battlefield, while still having enough time to make a small trip on a coast where he landed his kunai, come to redirect Juubi's bijuudama, spreading other kunais over the battlefield kilometers apart(the area where he spread his kunais were far greater than the Juubi) and having a small conversation with Naruto, Sakura and co, all that before Tobirama and co actually came

> Hiruzen highlighted his superior speed during the above feat, while getting even more impressed knowing he even had time to scatter his kunais all over the battlefield, with Tobirama himself also baffled by his speed and striking speed

And all of these were accomplished in base. The databook also further highlight his speed as being the greatest. He was the fastest character in Naruto before the arrival of Juubijins


His Edo base form(mentioned to be slightly weaker than his alive base form) could teleport in and out between 8 gate Gai's fastest step(who was faster than Juubijin Madara) and Juubijin Madara's truth seeking balls without getting erased



And this is without taking into consideration the SM enhancements that should drastically increase his overall stats.
@Marimo_420.
:catsure:
 
#37
I don't think so. Tobirama was portrayed around MS Izuna's level from the continuous battles they had against each other from childhood


They clashed multiple times with Izuna not having any problem with his combat speed. Of course, he ended up killing Izuna at one point, but the way Madara spoke made it seem like he took advantage of a distraction during the widespread battle between Uchihas and Senjus to do it

With Kinkaku / Ginkaku as mentioned before portrayed above him since they defeated him in the past even when he had the Nidaime Raikage with him

Minato on the other hand was portrayed to be considerably above MS Obito(who had both Uchiha and Senju powers with forbidden techniques, six path jutsu and co), reacting faster than his MS hax allowing him to be intangible even unconsciously mere moments after encountering his jutsu all that despite lacking knowledge on him when Obito on the other hand was fully prepared with full knowledge on him





Could fight / pressure both A(fastest alive outside of himself) and B at the same time from their first encounter, with them fighting multiple times against each other, yet B still shivers from just thinking of him, with A literally thinking he was unsurpassable




And the A / B duo was stronger than Kinkaku / Ginkaku, not to mention his flee on sight orders during the war


He also had considerable superior portrayal in speed which is their main forte

> Blitzed the other Hokages - Tobirama included on his way to the battlefield, while still having enough time to make a small trip on a coast where he landed his kunai, come to redirect Juubi's bijuudama, spreading other kunais over the battlefield kilometers apart(the area where he spread his kunais were far greater than the Juubi) and having a small conversation with Naruto, Sakura and co, all that before Tobirama and co actually came

> Hiruzen highlighted his superior speed during the above feat, while getting even more impressed knowing he even had time to scatter his kunais all over the battlefield, with Tobirama himself also baffled by his speed and striking speed

And all of these were accomplished in base. The databook also further highlight his speed as being the greatest. He was the fastest character in Naruto before the arrival of Juubijins


His Edo base form(mentioned to be slightly weaker than his alive base form) could teleport in and out between 8 gate Gai's fastest step(who was faster than Juubijin Madara) and Juubijin Madara's truth seeking balls without getting erased



And this is without taking into consideration the SM enhancements that should drastically increase his overall stats.
I think there's too many simplifications & assumptive statements being made here.

-> A young Tobirama was fighting a young Izuna, this is when Hashirama was fighting against Madara. Hashirama was superior to Madara and Tobirama was superior to Izuna. The fact we have no idea about the capabilities MS Izuna possessed makes this really a moot point. Not to mention this was when Tobirama still hadn't hit his prime much like Hashirama & Madara. As for how Izuna kept up with Tobirama's combat speed, it's simple, he had a MS & utterly insane battle instincts much like Madara/Hashirama/Tobirama himself.


-> "Striking your opponent when he's convinced of victory", not sure where you're getting distraction from this. Just when an enemy thinks they've won, Tobirama makes his move. Man just keeps at it, he's a smart tactical dude as well. In fact we saw Izuna getting sliced up on panel, there was no distraction involved. Surely Kishimoto would've pointed out something as crucial as that.

Tobirama & Kinkaku+ Ginkaku clarificaiton:

There are two events that happened that we know of regarding Tobirama & The Kinkaku squad.

1st. The Coup De'tat at the Konoha & Kumo summit.

This was a political coup by the Kinkaku force to prevent the alliance. The only other coup we know of in the manga was done by a whole clan. If it was just the two of them attacking they wouldn't call it a coup. So Kinkaku & Ginkaku had a whole force with them. During which they were able to extremely injure Tobirama Senju (naturally he would be the one who gets targeted the most as he's from Konoha).

According to Ay, they launched surprise attackS against them. So hell it wasn't even a face to face coup. But a series of surprise attacks.



2nd. The 20 vs 1 ending of Tobirama.

The 1 vs 20 clash against the Kinkaku force. The place where Tobirama died. How he died? unknown. Who killed him? unknown.

Prowess of Kinkaku & Ginkaku:

Your assumption of Ay & young Killer B, being superior to them is pretty baseless if I must say so (if it might be true).

-> Ay was anxious about the brothers the moment he heard of them, stressing about how fearsome the two brothers are:


-> They have special bodies compared to anyone else in the Kumo village:


-> Ay himself said they couldn't stop Kinkaku if he transforms. This is pretty much an admitting inferiority. Since he would just volunteer himself to go rather than freaking out, if he could stop them.

-> They only considered Darui to be able to give them a "good fight", despite him wearing the mark of the 3rd Raikage. 3rd Raikage being superior to 4th Raikage ofc:

They're easily Kage level ninja. Especially Kinkaku, who is def. superior to the Raikage. This dude can transform up to the 6-tails while still being in full control of himself.



But based on the two events that happened. They never beat Tobirama fairly. I'm assuming them beating Tobirama is more than likely referring to the 2nd one where he got killed. If it's the first one, then still again they didn't even fight him properly but took the mans down in a series of surprise attacks. But keep in mind them being able to do that to Tobirama is being used to hype them up aka "If they could do this to Tobrirama the 2nd Hokage, they must be strong af!"


Minato - Killer B & Ay situation:

I've failed to understand why this is often used as an incredibly uber feat of Minato and being portrayed as him being someone who could handle Killer B & Ay. When that's just completely wrong.

- Minato tries to pull the Obito situation on Ay -> Young Killer B reacts to it quick and moves his tail fast enough before Minato could get Ay.

- Ay figures out how the FTG works and attacks him again, but Minato this time teleports to Killer B hoping to end the conflict in that manner. Could Ay have gotten Minato once he popped up to a Kunai? Could Minato have invaded again? Who knows.

- The Moment Minato teleports behind Killer B, Killer B is able to react immediately. And just like how Minato didn't go with the killing blow, Killer B didn't as well. Note that the only person surprised in this panel is the dude on the side, rather than Killer B. Why? Because he had already countered Minato in this panel, as indicated by the missing left arm of his.


So what did we get out of this entire exchange?

-> Ay considered Minato superior to himself
-> Ay considered Killer B superior to himself (he literally makes a comment on it after Killer B "saves" him.
-> How a legit fight between Ay & Minato would go down is unclear, Ay believes he could put up a fight.
-> Young Killer B could keep up with Minato's combat speed in the defensive manner.

No he couldn't fight Ay & B at the sametime. He initially had an advantage on Ay due to the surprise of FTG. Once FTG was figured out is when the real fight was going to start, the result of that remained unknown. With Ay being confident he could react to it. Both time Minato went on the offensive, he got countered by that young Killaah named B.


Side note: MS Obito:

Minato simply had the perfect counter to Obito's Kamui, if he didn't have FTG he would've been GG'd. That's really it. Kamui is just that hax of a technique. Obito himself was inferior to any Kage at the time when it comes to fighting without Kamui, that's why it's not really that impressive that Minato took down a teen Obito. (Honestly would've been more interesting to see how Kishimoto could've wrote him against top dogs who didn't have stuff like FTG, the likes of Hiruzen, Hashirama, etc).

Speed & reaction:

Hokage arrival:

The Hokage arrival scene is a misrepresentation of the gap between Tobirama & Minato's shunshin, when it's clear as day that Tobirama came there alongside Hiruzen & Hashirama while Minato was sent ahead. If we are using that to determine the gap between Tobirama & Minato's shunshin, then that'd imply old ass Hiruzen is faster than Tobirama, since he arrived before him. The gap between their shunshin really isn't that much, but few seconds at most, as seen when they both used it together when teleporting Hashirama & Hiruzen to their respective statues.

Also not sure why the need for the extreme exaggeration of what Hiruzen & Tobirama said. Hiruzen simply says Minato is as fast as ever, Tobirama actually admits inferiority with a smile on his face:


After that Hiruzen asks whether Minato had placed the kunais. And Tobirama with a smile on his face compliments Minato on being quick at striking too ( this is referring to be quick on thinking not actual striking speed lol):

Tobirama isn't baffled anywhere, more like he's proud of Minato, look at that smile/smirk on his face some shit like "yeeaa bruh, my village producing some badass mfs even after my death" lol.

We already know who's superior in reaction & reaction speed:
Kishimoto made it clear between the two who's superior when it comes to reaction. A non-fulled powered Tobirama's clone is superior to KCM Minato by a good margin in terms of reaction capabilities. Minato didn't even notice Tobirama had appeared until after he disappeared.
^ Tobirama's clone (stated to be slower than Tobirama himself) here -> Comes in -> grabs it orbs when it's just about to explode -> teleports it back and stricks it at Obito just in time.

All the events that happened with Minato in individual situations that revolve around great reaction timing, would just mean Tobirama could achieve the same if not better results in those situations, as he out did a Kyuubi powered Minato.


Threat to Madara himself:
Tobirama himself, wanted to go deal with Madara himself. He seemed pretty confident in being able to handle him:



This confidence of Tobirama is backed up by Madara Uchiha himself:

Madara here talks about both Hashirama AND Tobirama being a threat to him. But it's a coincidence that they can't regain their full power and because of that he has the edge.

This is while a weaker (no eyes, no SM) Madara considered EMS Sasuke to not even be close to his level lol:




On a side note not sure why you think Minato wasn't revived at full power, when that was a statement for Hashirama & Tobirama who previously couldn't be revived to their full power. Something that was brought up again by Madara himself. While we have absolutely 0 statements for Minato not being at full power in base, so let's avoid giving Minato a handicap in his edo tensei form when he doesn't have one.


--------

Personally I would rate Tobirama as the 3rd strongest Shinobi (excluding Naruto & Sasuke & other 1st Kages).

I would've taken the time to explore the "gap" of power that exists between each generation of ninja from the warring states era to the present and how the strength level of the shinobi world declined over time. But that would honestly be a huge giant post that could be it's own thread dwelling into Sakumo, Sasuke, Dan, and other various ninja as well.
 
Last edited:
Top