Powers & Abilities More Skilled Swordsman (Specifically RYOU and BOAT)

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

That's also a different discussion, im very interested to hear from your POV, please expand on why you dont think taming enma is skilled based as well?

how skilled was oden with ryou when he tamed it as a child?
he only had basic armament by the time he saw roger and wb clash
however what was established was that, he was born a monster
think of big mom as a kid.
his haki and zoro's are stronger than kinemon's
but kinemon is more skilled than zoro with his haki i.e cutting fire.

 

[ShishioIsBack]

Ryou is the only thing that can explain cutting fire without Oda pulling out some brand new ability that hasn't been alluded to within the series whatsoever.

What kinda absurd logic is that?
Just cuz Zoro's Ryou mastery is better doesn't mean he can do everything Kinnemon can. Show me Oden ever cutting fire, he wasn't able to cut Kaido's boro breath, was he?
If Kinnemon's Ryou was even on the same level as Zoro's, he won't shit his pants the only time he saw Zoro use his Ryou or be too scared to even touch Enma.

Enma has to do both with Raw CoA level and CoA control and Zoro is above him in all.
I'd say Zoro has top tier CoA, above likes of Big Mom and Kaido but a tier below Mihawk. So on par with someone like Shanks as I think Shanks had Oden level CoA and Zoro defacto has Oden level CoA.

 

[bennbeckman]

how skilled was oden with ryou when he tamed it as a child?
he only had basic armament by the time he saw roger and wb clash
however what was established was that, he was born a monster
think of big mom as a kid.
his haki and zoro's are stronger than kinemon's
but kinemon is more skilled than zoro with his haki i.e cutting fire.

To answer the Oden question, we do not know. Skill level is merely an assumption compared to his strength

That's on the assumption cutting fire is solely a Ryou technique. It could be Kinemon's own technique, bec we have not seen Scabbards cutting fire.

What skill level is forging a blade black then?

 

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

To answer the Oden question, we do not know. Skill level is merely an assumption compared to his strength

That's on the assumption cutting fire is solely a Ryou technique. It could be Kinemon's own technique, bec we have not seen Scabbards cutting fire.

What skill level is forging a blade black then?

black blade is likely a culmination of both
we still need the lore on why only mihawk and ryuuma did
oh and oden didnt forge one despite being both skilled and strong.

That's on the assumption cutting fire is solely a Ryou technique.
Agreed . but its a reasonable jump. the ability to cut anything and nothing is boat, fire, diamonds, steel all fall into that.
zoro has not reached the pinnacle of swordsmanship just because he picked up haki.
he still has room to grow both in skill and strength.

It could be Kinemon's own technique, bec we have not seen Scabbards cutting fire.
wrong, fire cutting and variety of other styles started from ryuuma
stated in a magazine and the knowledge has been passed down till today.
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To answer the Oden question, we do not know. Skill level is merely an assumption compared to his strength

That's on the assumption cutting fire is solely a Ryou technique. It could be Kinemon's own technique, bec we have not seen Scabbards cutting fire.

What skill level is forging a blade black then?

I can tell you now
oden as a child def did not have more skill than adult kinemon.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

What kinda absurd logic is that?
Just cuz Zoro's Ryou mastery is better doesn't mean he can do everything Kinnemon can. Show me Oden ever cutting fire, he wasn't able to cut Kaido's boro breath, was he?
If Kinnemon's Ryou was even on the same level as Zoro's, he won't shit his pants the only time he saw Zoro use his Ryou or be too scared to even touch Enma.

Enma has to do both with Raw CoA level and CoA control and Zoro is above him in all.
I'd say Zoro has top tier CoA, above likes of Big Mom and Kaido but a tier below Mihawk. So on par with someone like Shanks as I think Shanks had Oden level CoA and Zoro defacto has Oden level CoA.

That's only if you believe taming Enma is based on the skill level of ones Ryou, which is absurd because Oden tamed the Sword when he was around 8 years old. That's more of a feat of Willpower if anything, because you're basically playing Tug of War with your Ryou against Enma. It's a mental game, and Zoro's willpower is off the charts.

Kinemon has refined his Ryou to the point where he is capable of cutting fire and explosions. So far we've seen Zoro use the same Ryou that a lot of Swordsman can use. It might be way stronger than their Ryou, because again, Haki = Willpower and therefore Zoro's high willpower allows for his Haki to be stronger, but that doesn't mean he's more skilled when it comes to using it.

 

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

power and skill arent together guys
the ryuuma zoro fought is as skilled as brook
but is clearly leagues ahead due to ryuma's power.


boa sisters, sentomaru, hyogoro have prob shown more skill with coa than katakuri , cracker did
but I bet their coa is stronger than those three.
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its why people cant see why someone as weak as kinemon could have an advanced techique in ryou
while stronger people do not.
you dont have to be strong to do this. its a technique that can be picked up by anyone who has learned how to use haki.

 

[Rivaille]

How do you evaluate « Ryou’s skill »?

 

[ShishioIsBack]

That's only if you believe taming Enma is based on the skill level of ones Ryou, which is absurd because Oden tamed the Sword when he was around 8 years old. That's more of a feat of Willpower if anything, because you're basically playing Tug of War with your Ryou against Enma. It's a mental game, and Zoro's willpower is off the charts.

Kinemon has refined his Ryou to the point where he is capable of cutting fire and explosions. So far we've seen Zoro use the same Ryou that a lot of Swordsman can use. It might be way stronger than their Ryou, because again, Haki = Willpower and therefore Zoro's high willpower allows for his Haki to be stronger, but that doesn't mean he's more skilled when it comes to using it.

No because I don't think that's what Enma is supposed to be.
It makes zero sense for certified high tiers like Kinnemon and Ashura to be scared of even touching Enma with them suggesting they would turn into Husk if an 8 year old can tame it. What does 8 year old know about control of Haki, when Oden as an adult was surprised seeing Roger and WB pour Haki out of their blades.

Oda hasn't revealed it yet, sure he will soon but its obvious Enma requires so much Haki because it is used to Oden's top tier Haki in Oden's prime. And when a "normal" Haki user like Kinnemom touches Enma, it pulls as much Haki as Oden would normally provide it and Kinnemon would turn into Hust. Zoro on the other hand has Godly reserves of Haki even before Enma training hence he was able to provide Enma with its initial Haki pull and still stay alive. Though his Haki reserves weren't same level as Oden yet so his arm still turned skinny until Zoro trained and made his Haki even stronger. Blades carry will of blade master, and they have a life of their own in context of One Piece. Enma is ued to Haki of Oden in his prime, and any less Haki than that and its not gonna be satisfied.

Try to look at things with a little bit of nuance rather than making absurd statements like "8 year old Oden tamed it". Will power alone ain't gonna do shit if you are gonna turn into Husk and die, tug of war only happens if you are alive from the initial pull of Haki that likes of Ashura, Kinnemon and even Prime Hyogoro won't be.

 

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

How do you evaluate « Ryou’s skill »?

what you can cut
and what you cant cut imo

 

[ShishioIsBack]

what you can cut
and what you cant cut imo

Then Zoro can cut a cliff with his Haki burst alone, kinnemon can't.

 

[BossYimz]

@Charlotte Horchata

We will use a poll to clear up our debate because that's a lot easier than going back and forth

This is not who has stronger CoA or is stronger in general, it's specially about which user is more skilled in using Ryou and BOAT

For now am of the opinion that Kinemon is more skilled with COA than Zoro, can do a variety of things with coa. However, Zoro has more raw COA than Kinemon.

Basically, there are stuff Zoro can do that Kinemon can't simply because Kinemon's coa is insufficient. (I think taming enma is an example of this) Whereas there are stuff Kinemon can do (cutting fire) that Zoro can't simply because Kinemon has been using it for longer and was exposed to sword technique that are banned to outsider.(We have been told that Ryuma's techniques that the people of wano try to recreate are banned to outsiders.)

With training, Zoro will be able to do everything Kinemon can, however, there are things Zoro can do that Kinemon will never be able to do no matter the amount of training cause his coa is not as much as Zoro's.

 

[Rivaille]

what you can cut
and what you cant cut imo

Ok.
So you think that Kinemon is more skilled than Luffy in Ryou?

 

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

For now am of the opinion that Kinemon is more skilled with COA than Zoro i.e he is more efficient at using coa. However, Zoro has more raw COA than Kinemon.

Basically, there are stuff Zoro can do that Kinemon can't simply because Kinemon's coa is insufficient. (I think taming enma is an example of this) Whereas there are stuff Kinemon can do that (cutting fire) Zoro can't simply because he is has been using it for longer and was exposed to sword technique that are banned to outsider.(We have been told that Ryuma's techniques that the people of wano try to recreate are banned to outsiders.)

With training, Zoro will be able to do everything Kinemon can, however, there are things Zoro can do that Kinemon will never be able to do no matter the amount of training cause his coa is not as much as Zoro's.

basically this.
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Ok.
So you think that Kinemon is more skilled than Luffy in Ryou?

prior to udon
yes
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Then Zoro can cut a cliff with his Haki burst alone, kinnemon can't.

zoro could cut buildings
cliffs
without haki based on power alone.

 

[Rivaille]

prior to udon
yes

Why only prior to udon? Do you think that Luffy can « hurt » fire now? Or do you think that the level of Ryou that Luffy mastered in Udon was already mastered by Kinemon?

 

[bennbeckman]

@LANJI CUCKSMOKE

What skill level or type of control would you say Zoro taking back his Haki on Enma has?

 

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

Why only prior to udon? Do you think that Luffy can « hurt » fire now? Or do you think that the level of Ryou that Luffy mastered in Udon was already mastered by Kinemon?

if luffy was a swordsman
cutting fire would be a valid comparison
at this point
its how skilled he is with ryou with his fist and he is currently better than ryou

luffy seems to have gotten the hang of it, one could argue kinemon is still better till we see luffy use it on an opponent like kaido.

do you think that the level of Ryou that Luffy mastered in Udon was already mastered by Kinemon
yes

 

[comrade]

Zoro. Tengu sees in Zoro even more potential than in Oden, saying that in Zoro's hand Enma will become a black blade.

 

[BossYimz]

@LANJI CUCKSMOKE

What skill level or type of control would you say Zoro taking back his Haki on Enma has?

I don't think this was about skill but Zoro's haki (willpower) was just too strong for enma which cause it to bend to Zoro's will and return the haki to him.

 

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

@LANJI CUCKSMOKE

What skill level or type of control would you say Zoro taking back his Haki on Enma has?

not skill
just stronger will.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

No because I don't think that's what Enma is supposed to be.
It makes zero sense for certified high tiers like Kinnemon and Ashura to be scared of even touching Enma with them suggesting they would turn into Husk if an 8 year old can tame it. What does 8 year old know about control of Haki, when Oden as an adult was surprised seeing Roger and WB pour Haki out of their blades.

Oda hasn't revealed it yet, sure he will soon but its obvious Enma requires so much Haki because it is used to Oden's top tier Haki in Oden's prime. And when a "normal" Haki user like Kinnemom touches Enma, it pulls as much Haki as Oden would normally provide it and Kinnemon would turn into Hust. Zoro on the other hand has Godly reserves of Haki even before Enma training hence he was able to provide Enma with its initial Haki pull and still stay alive. Though his Haki reserves weren't same level as Oden yet so his arm still turned skinny until Zoro trained and made his Haki even stronger. Blades carry will of blade master, and they have a life of their own in context of One Piece. Enma is ued to Haki of Oden in his prime, and any less Haki than that and its not gonna be satisfied.

Try to look at things with a little bit of nuance rather than making absurd statements like "8 year old Oden tamed it". Will power alone ain't gonna do shit if you are gonna turn into Husk and die, tug of war only happens if you are alive from the initial pull of Haki that likes of Ashura, Kinnemon and even Prime Hyogoro won't be.

Well you basically just added to my point. Zoro having higher reserves of Haki wouldn't mean he's more skilled at using it. Being able to control it to the point where you can cut things that others can't is what your skill level is. There is a reason why Zoro wants to learn how to cut fire, and not because it's just something that would be cool to do.

Prior to Luffy learning External/Penetration Haki, Hyou was more skilled than him at it. But I guarantee you that the strength and reserves of Luffy's Haki >>>>>>> Hyou.