General & Others Next Strawhat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet
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Like I said a hundred of time:
- The fact that Yamato's statement to Luffy is a subversion dialogue (making her other two statement fall into the same category)
- The fact that Yamato doesn't have a post and was not even introduced to one with one capacity when it could be easy to do so
- The fact that Yamato doesn't have a real moral pillar
- The fact that Yamato doesn't have any dynamic with the crew when ALL the strawhats had a form of friendship/friendly dynamic with the crew before being recruited.
- The fact that everything in Yamato's action, design and symbolisms scream "Wano guardian" instead of "Strawhat"
- The fact that Momo asked Yamato for guidance
- The fact that Yamato has been developped close to Momo and not close to the strawhats
- The fact that Yamato is the representation of Oden in her mind when Oden was in fact mistaken to go a sea
- The fact that Yamato hyp rest only on frivolous stuff like "son of Kaido" / "Strenght" and not at all about her personnality which in the mouth of certain YamatoForStrawhat followers is I quote "annoying"
etc. etc.
- The fact that Yamato's statement to Luffy is a subversion dialogue (making her other two statement fall into the same category)
- The fact that Yamato doesn't have a post and was not even introduced to one with one capacity when it could be easy to do so
- The fact that Yamato doesn't have a real moral pillar
- The fact that Yamato doesn't have any dynamic with the crew when ALL the strawhats had a form of friendship/friendly dynamic with the crew before being recruited.
- The fact that everything in Yamato's action, design and symbolisms scream "Wano guardian" instead of "Strawhat"
- The fact that Momo asked Yamato for guidance
- The fact that Yamato has been developped close to Momo and not close to the strawhats
- The fact that Yamato is the representation of Oden in her mind when Oden was in fact mistaken to go a sea
- The fact that Yamato hyp rest only on frivolous stuff like "son of Kaido" / "Strenght" and not at all about her personnality which in the mouth of certain YamatoForStrawhat followers is I quote "annoying"
etc. etc.
Most of these points alone would be enough to seriously question her chances. But when you take them all together, it's truly insane how this is even still a question to some people lmfao.
The straw hats literally have better relationships with some gifters than they do with Yamao. It's like people have forgotten what the word "nakama" actually means. Sure... the character who not a single one of the crew actually knows by name, is going to join them.
The straw hats literally have better relationships with some gifters than they do with Yamao. It's like people have forgotten what the word "nakama" actually means. Sure... the character who not a single one of the crew actually knows by name, is going to join them.
Most of these points alone would be enough to seriously question her chances. But when you take them all together, it's truly insane how this is even still a question to some people lmfao.
The straw hats literally have better relationships with some gifters than they do with Yamao. It's like people have forgotten what the word "nakama" actually means. Sure... the character who not a single one of the crew actually knows by name, is going to join them.
The straw hats literally have better relationships with some gifters than they do with Yamao. It's like people have forgotten what the word "nakama" actually means. Sure... the character who not a single one of the crew actually knows by name, is going to join them.
Not really. Guess your argument falls flat on it's ass.
Most of these points alone would be enough to seriously question her chances. But when you take them all together, it's truly insane how this is even still a question to some people lmfao.
The straw hats literally have better relationships with some gifters than they do with Yamao. It's like people have forgotten what the word "nakama" actually means. Sure... the character who not a single one of the crew actually knows by name, is going to join them.
The straw hats literally have better relationships with some gifters than they do with Yamao. It's like people have forgotten what the word "nakama" actually means. Sure... the character who not a single one of the crew actually knows by name, is going to join them.
At the end of the day, Luffy's not the only one that matters.
The SHs are a family. Having a new member join is equivalent to inviting someone into that family. Oda goes to lengths to have new recruits build relationships with multiple members so that they feel fully integrated when they join. This has always been the case, with the only exception being Robin for obvious specific reasons regarding her character that got resolved at Enies Lobby.
The exact style of relationship that Yamao has with Momo is what she should actually have built with real SHs. Oda gave her such a developed and significant bond with Momo, yet not even the tinniest crumb of interaction with practically any of the crew. That should be setting off some major, major alarms bells for anyone who expects her to join.
How can you become a family member, if you barely even count as a friend?
The SHs are a family. Having a new member join is equivalent to inviting someone into that family. Oda goes to lengths to have new recruits build relationships with multiple members so that they feel fully integrated when they join. This has always been the case, with the only exception being Robin for obvious specific reasons regarding her character that got resolved at Enies Lobby.
The exact style of relationship that Yamao has with Momo is what she should actually have built with real SHs. Oda gave her such a developed and significant bond with Momo, yet not even the tinniest crumb of interaction with practically any of the crew. That should be setting off some major, major alarms bells for anyone who expects her to join.
How can you become a family member, if you barely even count as a friend?
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- No. It can only be a twist after the fact of Yamato leaving with Luffy or not.
- Usopp, Robin, and Jinbe didn't get their roles until after they joined.
- Oden and the samurai in the cave. I would also argue that neither Usopp nor Brooke have moral pillars in the way the rest of the crew do.
- Chopper didn't meet half the crew until he joined. Robin just flexed on the crew during her introduction and only spoke to Luffy and Vivi after that, and she certainly wasn't friends with them. Franky still hadn't made friends with the crew up until the Franky Family begged the Straw Hats to take him with the crew.
- Actions like stating her goals of leaving Wano behind and going with Luffy? You could also apply this Jinbe, or even most of the Straw Hats if you're vague enough about "design" and "symbolism."
- And Yamato left Momo behind both times he asked her to stay with him in order to go and help Luffy.
- She's close to Luffy, that's all she needs. The arc also isn't over yet.
- Oden represents freedom and she looks up to him for leaving to go on an adventure. Momo is the representation of the consequences of Oden leaving Wano without a good leader.
- How much hype was there for most of the Straw Hats based on personality rather than abilities or what they are? I could also easily apply this to Carrot who was only hyped based on Sulong, which isn't even unique to her.
- Usopp, Robin, and Jinbe didn't get their roles until after they joined.
- Oden and the samurai in the cave. I would also argue that neither Usopp nor Brooke have moral pillars in the way the rest of the crew do.
- Chopper didn't meet half the crew until he joined. Robin just flexed on the crew during her introduction and only spoke to Luffy and Vivi after that, and she certainly wasn't friends with them. Franky still hadn't made friends with the crew up until the Franky Family begged the Straw Hats to take him with the crew.
- Actions like stating her goals of leaving Wano behind and going with Luffy? You could also apply this Jinbe, or even most of the Straw Hats if you're vague enough about "design" and "symbolism."
- And Yamato left Momo behind both times he asked her to stay with him in order to go and help Luffy.
- She's close to Luffy, that's all she needs. The arc also isn't over yet.
- Oden represents freedom and she looks up to him for leaving to go on an adventure. Momo is the representation of the consequences of Oden leaving Wano without a good leader.
- How much hype was there for most of the Straw Hats based on personality rather than abilities or what they are? I could also easily apply this to Carrot who was only hyped based on Sulong, which isn't even unique to her.
All thats matters is Luffy, the strawhats have no say in who joins.
Yep.
Just put @dizzy2341 on ignore you won't miss anything of value
Yep.
Just put @dizzy2341 on ignore you won't miss anything of value
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Still no one is explaining the event that will cause Yamato to turn a 180. She knew about Wano's condition, she meet Momo and said she will die for him, and knows her DF is the guardian diety, but still said she's leaving with Luffy after Kaido is taken care of.
Also, Yamato can't join because only Luffy cares about her? Franky joined and Luffy outright hated him at one point. Other SHs too.
Also, Yamato can't join because only Luffy cares about her? Franky joined and Luffy outright hated him at one point. Other SHs too.
Here is my explanation.
Yamata wants to join the strawhats and wants to travel, go on adventures, find and know what the one piece is and full fill odens dream. Odens dream is to finish what Joyboy has started. Opening wano is only a part of it.
She has fought for wano and helped throw the beast pirates out.
Wano has one of the strongest armies in the entire one piece world. Let me explain that.
If you take the average soldier of alabasta, they are on a low level. Shandians are a little bit stronger and with each island that strength increases. Sure we have on every island some people who are way stronger than the others but the average level is more or les the same.
Wano has the 9 akaza, thousands of strong soldiers and natural protection like no other island. The WG managed to enter through the secret passage because they were working with the Beast pirates.
once defeated that will not be accessible to them anymore, entering on the normal way almost impossible. And the news will travel that and army of 5k soldiers and an alliance of pirates defeated the 30k strong beast pirates. Wano will have strong defenses, the name of the Strawhat pirates protecting them and strong natural protection.
there won’t be no need for Yamato to stay. If she want to leave she can.
btw. 5k samurai plus the ones that were working for Orochi will go back to working for Momo, the gifters that are under control of Tama. Wano will be strong after the war and after they have recovered and everybody has food to eat.
Yamata wants to join the strawhats and wants to travel, go on adventures, find and know what the one piece is and full fill odens dream. Odens dream is to finish what Joyboy has started. Opening wano is only a part of it.
She has fought for wano and helped throw the beast pirates out.
Wano has one of the strongest armies in the entire one piece world. Let me explain that.
If you take the average soldier of alabasta, they are on a low level. Shandians are a little bit stronger and with each island that strength increases. Sure we have on every island some people who are way stronger than the others but the average level is more or les the same.
Wano has the 9 akaza, thousands of strong soldiers and natural protection like no other island. The WG managed to enter through the secret passage because they were working with the Beast pirates.
once defeated that will not be accessible to them anymore, entering on the normal way almost impossible. And the news will travel that and army of 5k soldiers and an alliance of pirates defeated the 30k strong beast pirates. Wano will have strong defenses, the name of the Strawhat pirates protecting them and strong natural protection.
there won’t be no need for Yamato to stay. If she want to leave she can.
btw. 5k samurai plus the ones that were working for Orochi will go back to working for Momo, the gifters that are under control of Tama. Wano will be strong after the war and after they have recovered and everybody has food to eat.
I will copy paste the article of my blog about it:
Subversion dialogues
This time I will present you a storytelling concept I called "subversion dialogues"
"Subversion dialogues" are storytelling tools that helps the author lead the reader's mindset where they wants them to be while preparing and helping the diligent readers with little hints, to predict what is really to come in the future.
In short. You can see "Subversion dialogues" as diversion tools.
Example
On chapter 216, Luffy says this: "Vivi's coming let's drop anchor and go look for her!! She's gotta be here!!!"
This line from Luffy is giving us the expectation that Vivi is gonna join and that we just have to go search for her in order for this to happen.
Sadly, we know that Vivi will not join. In fact what Oda did here is trying to subvert our expectations. His goal was to surprise us. So he made Luffy give us some hope only to take them back later on
On this other example on chapter 837, Luffy is angry at Crackers while speaking about Sanji: "Don't insult Sanji!! Even if he's too happy to want to come back.. He would NEVER speak to us like that" ("That" being Craker sayin that Sanji will say that they are worthless Pirates)
With this line, Luffy is giving us the expectation that Sanji would never speak to Luffy with an insult even if Sanji is too happy to stay with Pudding.
Sadly, we now know that Sanji will indeed speak to Luffy with an insult. For the simple reason that he is lost and this is the only way for him to make Luffy go away.
As you can see, those moment are the "I have a bad feeling about this" moments. The reason is simple : those are both "subversion dialogues". They are dialogue meant to divert us from the truth of the story in order to surprise us later.
Two type of subversion
There are two type of "subversion dialogue":
A "subversion dialogue" can come from a positive statement to arrive at a negative situation but a "subversion dialogue" can also come from a negative statement to arrive at a positive situation.
The two previous "subversion dialogues" (Luffy speaking about Vivi and Luffy speaking about Sanji) were positive statement meant to arrive at a nevative situation in other word those were : Positive > to > negative subversion dialogue
Here are some example of the opposite: Negative >.to > Positive subversion dialogue:
In chapter 816, Franky, Brook and Robin have let the Samourai enter Zou while being asleep, so they said that:
"If the Samurai searching for Raizo should happen across the Minks... Then surely disaster will result!!!"
In this first example, Oda is leading us to believe the Mink will kill the samourai. So we are worried. But this is not what will happen, in fact the Samourai will get well welcomed.
This is an example of a subversion dialogue coming from a negative statement to arrive at a positive situation.
In this other example (in the cliffhanger of chapter 880) Nami (and Oda) are leading us to believe that there is no way out of this situation (the Tsunami from Big Momo). They will all get crush by this tsunami wave and die :
"Hello .... ? Sorry ...Luffy. We might ... not make it !"
Of course now we know that this is not what happened. Jinbe used the ship to enter the green room.
Those type of "diversion dialogues" (Negative > to > positive) are mostly used in moment when there is a life or death situation. Those are the "oh sh*t!" moments. But they can be countered by the most careful readers. I will show you how.
How to detect the subversion dialogue
There is a simple way to detect subversion dialogues. We must look at the premisse. If the premisse is corrupted, then this is most likely because the dialogue is subversif.
To understand, let's look back at all of our examples:
- In the first one, Luffy says that Vivi is coming. But this premisse is corrupted by the fact that Vivi is a princess. She can't just go with pirates this easy, she has a duty (and this is a good reason). That's why Vivi can't come back to the crew.
- In the second example Luffy states that Sanji - even if happy about his situation- would never speaks to him that way. But this premisse is corrupted by a fact we already know in the story: Sanji is not happy at all, and he is taken hostage by his own family, he will have therefore no choice but to speak to Luffy in a bad way to make him go away.
- In the third example, we have the opposite Franky and Cie told us that if the Samourai were found by the mink, they would be transformed into dead meat. But this premisse is corrupted also. Indeed, the Minks never told the crew that they hated the samourai. (Oda was sneaky enough to even make Kinemon and Kanjuro state that the mink would welcome them to erease any suspicion)
- In the last example, Nami is saying that there are done for. But there is one thing Nami doesn't know and that the best readers might have noticed: A wayve can be surfed on and Jinbe is a Helmsman and a fishman, there is surely no wayve too big for him.
As you can see, once a premisse is corrupted, it is most likely because of the presence of a subversion dialogue.
Of course, most of the subversion dialogues are not easy to notice, that why authors can play with our minds so easily. Most often, they are noticable after the action. But sometime, it's possible.
----
And that is what happen with the statetment of Yamato. which is a "Positive to a negative statetment" (in the sence that negative means that Yamato won't end up joining)
Yamato's three sentence "I figured that as Ace's brother, you should be giving me a ride on your ship".. and the following "I will sail with Luffy" are corrupted by two things:
- Yamato never asked Luffy, she stated that Luffy should be giving a ride to her just because of logic.
- Yamato's logic is a fallacy: Strawhats are not invited on the ship because they know a parent of the captain. This logic is deeply flawed.
That's why the moment Yamato said that.. you could see red flag raising in the community.
If Yamato said simply "Luffy, can I go with you ? I knew your brother!" This wouldve been good and enough! But Yamato forced Luffy's hand here! She AFFIRMED that Luffy should just give a ride to her on her ship. And what happened ? Luffy got frustrated.
This is a school case of Subversion Dialogue. Oda is trying to subvert our expectations here.
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- yes it is, that's not up for a debate.
This is right, but EACH ONE OF THEM, was introduced VERY EARLY with the capacity for the post. And during a moment of great conflict. We are almost 70 chapters in Yamato's introduction, this is taking too long, it won't happen.
Those could indeed be moral pillars if at least ONE of them would be characterize in something else than a shadow. Moral pillars are not just persons in the background that help the character. It's someone IMPORTANT that shaped the way for the character and sacrificed a lot for him. The moral Pillar must therefore be a strong character in the story, meaning that he must have a LOT of panel time.
Good point Chopper only met half the crew until he joined... like Carrot. But like Carrot, Chopper developped a STRONG bond with the member he was with. That's what I'm talking about with the word "dynamic". Yamato don't have that. At all. And you are forgetting that Franky made friend with Usopp during a large number of chapter (same he befriended Sanji on the train arriving to Enies Lobby)
Yamato did not acted toward her goal of being a mugiwara, she only acted toward one goal at this moment: Protecting Momo and Wano.
Saying stuff is not "acting"
Jinbe on the other hand "acted" directely toward his goal of being a strawhat by saving Luffy, destroying Opera and challenging Big Mom.
Only for a good reason : to save Wano not to save Luffy or his crew
Yamato is not close to Luffy. Luffy only spoke to her 10 minutes top and was most of the time frustrated by what Yamato was saying. Yamato is respected by Luffy as an ally, but she is not close to him like Carrot is (remember Luffy shares food only with his close friends)
The arc is not over for Yamato yes, but it's not Over for Carrot either.
And that's precisely the reason why Yamato will truly become Oden. By grabing her true freedom and choosing her own pass by staying in Wano for Momo
I remember being hype to see Jinbe in the crew because he was someone who knew what responsibilities are, someone strong on his words. Same, I was eager to see Brook in the crew because of his Joyous personnality.
Carrot's hype is not based on Sulong, in fact, the reason why I get attacked so much is because I consider Carrot a good fit because of her personnality and not her fits.
Sadly.. Yamato is not hyped up by the community for her personnality.. and while being a Carrot fan.. this concerns me as this is just a proof of the latent sexism EVEN in the Yamato Community.
I have done that for hours...
That is literally true. Some headliners like Hamlet have a better dynamic with the crew than Yamato...
This should be a red flag when people are bringing up her dynamic.
Yup.. Red flags.. but I guess I'm "over analysing"
Subversion dialogues
This time I will present you a storytelling concept I called "subversion dialogues"
"Subversion dialogues" are storytelling tools that helps the author lead the reader's mindset where they wants them to be while preparing and helping the diligent readers with little hints, to predict what is really to come in the future.
In short. You can see "Subversion dialogues" as diversion tools.
Example
On chapter 216, Luffy says this: "Vivi's coming let's drop anchor and go look for her!! She's gotta be here!!!"
This line from Luffy is giving us the expectation that Vivi is gonna join and that we just have to go search for her in order for this to happen.
Sadly, we know that Vivi will not join. In fact what Oda did here is trying to subvert our expectations. His goal was to surprise us. So he made Luffy give us some hope only to take them back later on
On this other example on chapter 837, Luffy is angry at Crackers while speaking about Sanji: "Don't insult Sanji!! Even if he's too happy to want to come back.. He would NEVER speak to us like that" ("That" being Craker sayin that Sanji will say that they are worthless Pirates)
With this line, Luffy is giving us the expectation that Sanji would never speak to Luffy with an insult even if Sanji is too happy to stay with Pudding.
Sadly, we now know that Sanji will indeed speak to Luffy with an insult. For the simple reason that he is lost and this is the only way for him to make Luffy go away.
As you can see, those moment are the "I have a bad feeling about this" moments. The reason is simple : those are both "subversion dialogues". They are dialogue meant to divert us from the truth of the story in order to surprise us later.
Two type of subversion
There are two type of "subversion dialogue":
A "subversion dialogue" can come from a positive statement to arrive at a negative situation but a "subversion dialogue" can also come from a negative statement to arrive at a positive situation.
The two previous "subversion dialogues" (Luffy speaking about Vivi and Luffy speaking about Sanji) were positive statement meant to arrive at a nevative situation in other word those were : Positive > to > negative subversion dialogue
Here are some example of the opposite: Negative >.to > Positive subversion dialogue:
In chapter 816, Franky, Brook and Robin have let the Samourai enter Zou while being asleep, so they said that:
"If the Samurai searching for Raizo should happen across the Minks... Then surely disaster will result!!!"
In this first example, Oda is leading us to believe the Mink will kill the samourai. So we are worried. But this is not what will happen, in fact the Samourai will get well welcomed.
This is an example of a subversion dialogue coming from a negative statement to arrive at a positive situation.
In this other example (in the cliffhanger of chapter 880) Nami (and Oda) are leading us to believe that there is no way out of this situation (the Tsunami from Big Momo). They will all get crush by this tsunami wave and die :
"Hello .... ? Sorry ...Luffy. We might ... not make it !"
Of course now we know that this is not what happened. Jinbe used the ship to enter the green room.
Those type of "diversion dialogues" (Negative > to > positive) are mostly used in moment when there is a life or death situation. Those are the "oh sh*t!" moments. But they can be countered by the most careful readers. I will show you how.
How to detect the subversion dialogue
There is a simple way to detect subversion dialogues. We must look at the premisse. If the premisse is corrupted, then this is most likely because the dialogue is subversif.
To understand, let's look back at all of our examples:
- In the first one, Luffy says that Vivi is coming. But this premisse is corrupted by the fact that Vivi is a princess. She can't just go with pirates this easy, she has a duty (and this is a good reason). That's why Vivi can't come back to the crew.
- In the second example Luffy states that Sanji - even if happy about his situation- would never speaks to him that way. But this premisse is corrupted by a fact we already know in the story: Sanji is not happy at all, and he is taken hostage by his own family, he will have therefore no choice but to speak to Luffy in a bad way to make him go away.
- In the third example, we have the opposite Franky and Cie told us that if the Samourai were found by the mink, they would be transformed into dead meat. But this premisse is corrupted also. Indeed, the Minks never told the crew that they hated the samourai. (Oda was sneaky enough to even make Kinemon and Kanjuro state that the mink would welcome them to erease any suspicion)
- In the last example, Nami is saying that there are done for. But there is one thing Nami doesn't know and that the best readers might have noticed: A wayve can be surfed on and Jinbe is a Helmsman and a fishman, there is surely no wayve too big for him.
As you can see, once a premisse is corrupted, it is most likely because of the presence of a subversion dialogue.
Of course, most of the subversion dialogues are not easy to notice, that why authors can play with our minds so easily. Most often, they are noticable after the action. But sometime, it's possible.
----
And that is what happen with the statetment of Yamato. which is a "Positive to a negative statetment" (in the sence that negative means that Yamato won't end up joining)
Yamato's three sentence "I figured that as Ace's brother, you should be giving me a ride on your ship".. and the following "I will sail with Luffy" are corrupted by two things:
- Yamato never asked Luffy, she stated that Luffy should be giving a ride to her just because of logic.
- Yamato's logic is a fallacy: Strawhats are not invited on the ship because they know a parent of the captain. This logic is deeply flawed.
That's why the moment Yamato said that.. you could see red flag raising in the community.
If Yamato said simply "Luffy, can I go with you ? I knew your brother!" This wouldve been good and enough! But Yamato forced Luffy's hand here! She AFFIRMED that Luffy should just give a ride to her on her ship. And what happened ? Luffy got frustrated.
This is a school case of Subversion Dialogue. Oda is trying to subvert our expectations here.
---------
- yes it is, that's not up for a debate.
This is right, but EACH ONE OF THEM, was introduced VERY EARLY with the capacity for the post. And during a moment of great conflict. We are almost 70 chapters in Yamato's introduction, this is taking too long, it won't happen.
Those could indeed be moral pillars if at least ONE of them would be characterize in something else than a shadow. Moral pillars are not just persons in the background that help the character. It's someone IMPORTANT that shaped the way for the character and sacrificed a lot for him. The moral Pillar must therefore be a strong character in the story, meaning that he must have a LOT of panel time.
Good point Chopper only met half the crew until he joined... like Carrot. But like Carrot, Chopper developped a STRONG bond with the member he was with. That's what I'm talking about with the word "dynamic". Yamato don't have that. At all. And you are forgetting that Franky made friend with Usopp during a large number of chapter (same he befriended Sanji on the train arriving to Enies Lobby)
Yamato did not acted toward her goal of being a mugiwara, she only acted toward one goal at this moment: Protecting Momo and Wano.
Saying stuff is not "acting"
Jinbe on the other hand "acted" directely toward his goal of being a strawhat by saving Luffy, destroying Opera and challenging Big Mom.
Only for a good reason : to save Wano not to save Luffy or his crew
Yamato is not close to Luffy. Luffy only spoke to her 10 minutes top and was most of the time frustrated by what Yamato was saying. Yamato is respected by Luffy as an ally, but she is not close to him like Carrot is (remember Luffy shares food only with his close friends)
The arc is not over for Yamato yes, but it's not Over for Carrot either.
And that's precisely the reason why Yamato will truly become Oden. By grabing her true freedom and choosing her own pass by staying in Wano for Momo
I remember being hype to see Jinbe in the crew because he was someone who knew what responsibilities are, someone strong on his words. Same, I was eager to see Brook in the crew because of his Joyous personnality.
Carrot's hype is not based on Sulong, in fact, the reason why I get attacked so much is because I consider Carrot a good fit because of her personnality and not her fits.
Sadly.. Yamato is not hyped up by the community for her personnality.. and while being a Carrot fan.. this concerns me as this is just a proof of the latent sexism EVEN in the Yamato Community.
I have done that for hours...
That is literally true. Some headliners like Hamlet have a better dynamic with the crew than Yamato...
This should be a red flag when people are bringing up her dynamic.
Yup.. Red flags.. but I guess I'm "over analysing"
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