General & Others Oda needs to learn from Togashi on how to handle power ups and fights.

[Uncle Van]

Also, if the key to gaining ACoC was to simply master CoA, then Rayleigh is a retard for not teaching Luffy ryuo.

Oh about that...

Luffy took a year and a half to master basic haki and Rayleigh left saying he had nothing else to teach. It only took Luffy like 2 weeks to learn ACOA from another old man.

1. I do not have to assume because you did not say anything about any other series. I just went off what you wrote. If you feel it is an industry issue state that. I am nor anyone else here is a mind reader. Make yourself clear. You did not do that the fault lies with you.

So I must mention other series whenever I talk about One Piece writing or else I'm singling OP out....

Again comparing apples to oranges. This is just so the creator of the thread can try to tear down another fanbase and you are feeding into it.

And you shoving this opinion in my face is supposed to do what exactly? Am I not allowed to give my own opinions or something?

Again PU flaws are a fan construct not a shortcoming of an author who isn't worried about power scaling. World building, creative and interesting abilities, amazing locations, and great characters with quirky and varied personalities. That is what OP is about while this thread is trying to make it solely about fighting

That is just your opinion in case you don't know. I for one still believe the PUs are poorly done and will continue to say so.

The majority fall into the same traps. Again HxH is built around its power system while One Piece is built around the world, characters, and a deeper mystery that is slowly being revealed.

And this excuses OP flaws how? This is the same logic as saying OP is trash at tension cause it's not like Berserk.

I am here to say this is a dumb thread not that OP is better then HxH.

And I'm here to say the PUs in One Piece aren't done well and will continue to do so.

 

[lee33]

WhAT arE you TAlkinG abOut therE waS advENturE 88 chapTers agO noT 100 chApteRs! AlSo thErE waSn'T 70 chaPteRS oF nOn-StoP fiGHts beCauSe LufFY waS runnInG uP thE staiRs foR aT leaSt 10 chaPterS, sO yoU sEe yoU arE WronG.

 

[Indigo]

Oh about that...

Luffy took a year and a half to master basic haki and Rayleigh left saying he had nothing else to teach. It only took Luffy like 2 weeks to learn ACOA from another old man.



So I must mention other series whenever I talk about One Piece writing or else I'm singling OP out....



And you shoving this opinion in my face is supposed to do what exactly? Am I not allowed to give my own opinions or something?



That is just your opinion in case you don't know. I for one still believe the PUs are poorly done and will continue to say so.



And this excuses OP flaws how? This is the same logic as saying OP is trash at tension cause it's not like Berserk.



And I'm here to say the PUs in One Piece aren't done well and will continue to do so.

Absolutely goated

 

[Monster Luffy]

That finite haki shit doesn't matter because Luffy always heals, gets back up stronger and fights the enemy right after.

It's just a delay for the story, fake tension.

It's not an actual drawback.

Has Luffy ever completely lost an important battle because of this? no!

Finite haki shit doesn't matter? Besides, I am arguing in different context. He says only haki blooms for Luffy and I said only Luffy has haki limit.

Next, you are saying Luffy wouldn't have died if no one is there to save him or stall him in that 10 minutes being deadweight?

Luffy always gets back from the defeat. He will heal because there was a gap between the defeat and rematch. This recovering fast thing happened only in Kaidou fight. And that too he didn't heal, he just recovered his energy by eating energy source aka meat. Don't act like his wounds miraculously healed which was not the case. Luffy comes back stronger ofcourse that was the theme and logic one piece follows all the time. Don't bring practical situation into fictional stories, I mean haki or chakra or nen doesn't exist in realistic scenario. But we accept it because as long as it follows its manga or fiction logic it is fine.

Luffy bouncing back stronger is the fictional logic one piece follows. And is consistent in that. If you say that is illogical, then whole concept of fiction is illogical.

 

[Monkey D Theories]

You know what might have honestly been better than this haki bloom bullshit? What if it was just possible for anybody to eat multiple DFs?

But how many DFs you could eat depended on the quality of the ability, your haki, your physical strength, or something like that. And so in order to become the pirate king, you need to steal the most DFs.

This would mean that to be PK, Luffy would need to actually do pirating. He'd have to find and steal DFs(steal fruits that haven't been eaten, not killing people like Teach).

Oda could have even taken a page out of horikoshi's playbook. Luffy gets multiple weak DFs, but awakens all of them. Each power is weak in of itself but the synergy between them makes Luffy OP.

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2022

Fights would also be so much more interesting. Instead of depending on Luffy getting a shitty haki bloom to win, he'd have to find new and creative ways to use his abilities.

 

[Monster Luffy]

Luffy took a year and a half to master basic haki and Rayleigh left saying he had nothing else to teach. It only took Luff

True, Rayleigh is a shit teacher but that aside. It is not illogical that Luffy took 1.5 years to learn basics while it takes only two weeks to learn advanced haki. It took more time for me to learn how to ride a bicycle but I learnt riding a motor bike in no time.

 

[Monkey D Theories]

OP would have been so GOATed if Luffy ate the mera mera no mi in dressrosa and had 2 DFs like Teach. Then for WCI and Wano, he basically had to master his dead brother's DF.

With the ultimate reveal being that the nika fruit is actually a combination of the mera mera no mi and the gomu gomu no mi.

 

[Indigo]

True, Rayleigh is a shit teacher but that aside. It is not illogical that Luffy took 1.5 years to learn basics while it takes only two weeks to learn advanced haki. It took more time for me to learn how to ride a bicycle but I learnt riding a motor bike in no time.

The problem is that you have MILLIONS of people riding motor bikes out there, you get videos on youtube and teachers.

While Adv. Haki are specialized secret powers that only few people can do it.

Luffy learning how to do Future Sight, Internal Destruction and Conqueror's Coating in just a few minutes / hours by watching someone else is fucking nuts.

 

[Uncle Van]

True, Rayleigh is a shit teacher but that aside. It is not illogical that Luffy took 1.5 years to learn basics while it takes only two weeks to learn advanced haki. It took more time for me to learn how to ride a bicycle but I learnt riding a motor bike in no time.

Well for me it's the opposite in that I learned to ride a bike instantly.

As for Luffy, it took him 18 months to master the basics. Luffy was living in an environment where he could easily die during that time too. The more complicated usages of haki is being learned in record time under similar circumstances.

With Katakuri, it took Luffy 8 hours. With Kaido, it took Luffy just thinking about to apply ACOC, and his COC strength rapidly grew outta nowhere after getting knocked out.

It leaves plot holes with the haki system.

 

[Chrono]

Your first point is negated by the plot armor known as "Nanika" the biggest plot hole in the entire series. You guys use restrictions on Kurapika as justification while neglecting to say there is no limit to the power "Nanika" can use and no suitable explanation for why that is. That selective shit ruins your argument.

My point isnt about the plot having consequences. I was specifically talking about Gon's PU. Sure Nanika saved Gon but thats due to plot. Overall his PU still had the consequence of killing him for using it. Something Luffy doesnt and will never have. This then elevates tension and rises the stakes.

And just cause Nanika saved Gon's life didnt mean what he did had no consequences. He lost his Nen. Hes basically useless. If he regains his nen...he'll have to restart from the beginning. Hes essentially crippled from that PU. Again consequences Luffy never gets when he gets random PUs and jumps tiers.

 

[Indigo]

Do you guys have any recommendations for a shounen where most of the powerups come from training? and the fights have good coreography and use of strategy?

Besides things like HxH and Naruto.

I miss reading / watching something like that. Most of the manga i follow right now are not very good at this.

 

[LogicoftheVI]

Tell me of a single power up in Naruto that came out of nowhere in Naruto like Diable Jambe and Asura, go for it

I don't even know why you are asking me to do this. We all know that Naruto had horrible power creep and unexplained abelites/power ups. But in no particular order:

• The Indra and Asura power ups that Naruto and Sasuke received from Hagoromo during the battle with Kaguya.
• A Naruto clone fighting on par with a resurrected Sandaime Raikage (Clone as strong as the original when original is nowhere near).
• Reverse Harem Jutsu (though funny as hell it came out of nowhere).
• Naruto spends two years with Jiraiya barely gets any stronger, yet in few weeks after returning from the time skip he's capable of making craters the size of a moon (this is power creep).
• Even before the time skip Naruto vs Neji.
• And any speed feat as shown in this video

WhAT arE you TAlkinG abOut therE waS advENturE 88 chapTers agO noT 100 chApteRs! AlSo thErE waSn'T 70 chaPteRS oF nOn-StoP fiGHts beCauSe LufFY waS runnInG uP thE staiRs foR aT leaSt 10 chaPterS, sO yoU sEe yoU arE WronG.

Luffy running to the main enemy happens in literally every arc, what are you on about? You cannot back up anything you are saying with anything of substance.

Overall his PU still had the consequence of killing him for using it. Something Luffy doesnt and will never have. This then elevates tension and rises the stakes.

But we know that Luffy's power ups come at a cost. Gear 2 has shortened his life, just because we do not know the exact amount doesn't negate the fact it is a major draw back that we know of. Gear 3 Luffy became chibi which made him vulnerable, in Gear 4 Luffy loses haki and basically could not move for 10 minutes, and now with this new power up we have another draw back of him using it again. Regardless of how the authors clean it up we know the MC's aren't dying so the stakes and tension are there for both regardless. You just like how one was handled better but the tension and stakes are the same.

Besides things like HxH and Naruto.

Original Naruto had that Shippuden shit on it. I heard that Hitman Reborn has good power scaling but I have not read/watched it myself.

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2022

So I must mention other series whenever I talk about One Piece writing or else I'm singling OP out....

People will assume just like I did, I guess that is my bad. For the rest we can just agree to disagree. I do not read OP for the battles, it is more than that and the way Oda handles his battles is fine with me as is the way Togashi used to handle his when he actually wrote.

 

[IsaziSempi]

ODA IS BAD AT FIGHTS. I mean preskip his fights had charm I feel like he put amazing effort into making them dynamic but last 12 years have been shit shows.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

Lets just compare this to WCI

In WCI, it took Luffy the course of the entire battle against kata to develop efficient FS and even then, Kata still had better observation haki. Luffy needed to get a speed advantage via snakeman to beat him.

In wano, Luffy just becomes a CoC master. Luffy gets KO'd in chapter 1013 and then when he returns in 1026, he can magically just split the sky. Where is the growth? How did Luffy gain the ability to do that when he just unlocked ACoC 20 chapters ago and was subsequently KO'd only three chapters after unlocking it?

Again Luffy trained to learn advanced Ryou. He already had the entire concept down. He also had already unlocked and mastered the basics of CoC. He just didn't know you could combine the two, until he realized that was what Kaido was doing. So he took the two concepts that he was already familiar with, and put them together. It's not like Luffy just got hit with AdCoC and was like..... "Oh, Kaido must be flowing his CoC into his attack" without ever knowing what the principal behind flowing haki is. That is what you are acting like happened. Luffy had no clue about flowing haki, no clue about CoC, and then BAM mastered both on the spot because he got KOed.

And I'm not really following your logic on some "Sky splitting" powerup. Luffy and Kaido have clashed dozens of times since Luffy realized AdCoC, and only have split the sky once. That's just a matter of how much CoC they were outputting during that one clash. It's not some brand new powerup that is different from other AdCoC attacks.

 

[Chrono]

I

Luffy running to the main enemy happens in literally every arc, what are you on about? You cannot back up anything you are saying with anything of substance.
But we know that Luffy's power ups come at a cost. Gear 2 has shortened his life, just because we do not know the exact amount doesn't negate the fact it is a major draw back that we know of. Gear 3 Luffy became chibi which made him vulnerable, in Gear 4 Luffy loses haki and basically could not move for 10 minutes, and now with this new power up we have another draw back of him using it again. Regardless of how the authors clean it up we know the MC's aren't dying so the stakes and tension are there for both regardless. You just like how one was handled better but the tension and stakes are the same.

Luffy's cost are nonexistent. Who tf cares what age he will die. For all we know he might still die at 80 because he already had a giant lifespan. G3 has lost its drawback. Anways your missing the point. My issue isnt the PUs hes trained for but the shit that hes pulled outta his ass. Like FS, AdvCoC, and Nika form. They have zero drawbacks and theyve made him jump several tiers. Whilst Gon's drawback is literal death and losing his powers.

 

[Monkey D Theories]

ODA IS BAD AT FIGHTS. I mean preskip his fights had charm I feel like he put amazing effort into making them dynamic but last 12 years have been shit shows.

Oda has decent fights with other characters, but Luffy's fights are specifically bad because in recent times, he's needed to concoct more and more BS for Luffy to win.
The rest of the wano fights weren't that bad. Even the big mom fight, which I shit on a lot, is only bad because Oda rushed it. Linlin was a major antagonist and we didn't even get to see her use an ACoC attacks on panel.

But I think Linlin was defeated in a much more logical way than Kaido is. Especially if the anime shows that she was in fact using ACoC.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

So how do you explain Zoro learning Adv. CoC?

Zoro already knew about flowing haki. He unlocked CoC and was using it unconsciously with Ryou. He still doesn't know he has it.

 

[Monkey D Theories]

And I'm not really following your logic on some "Sky splitting" powerup. Luffy and Kaido have clashed dozens of times since Luffy realized AdCoC, and only have split the sky once. That's just a matter of how much CoC they were outputting during that one clash. It's not some brand new powerup that is different from other AdCoC attacks.

After 1010., Kaido said Luffy's CoC mastery was bad and he was easily defeated in 1013. In 1026, Luffy splits the sky and his CoC is portrayed to be close in strength to kaido's(as evident in the later chapters detailing their fight).

Luffy got a haki power up out of thin air.

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2022

Again Luffy trained to learn advanced Ryou. He already had the entire concept down. He also had already unlocked and mastered the basics of CoC. He just didn't know you could combine the two, until he realized that was what Kaido was doing. So he took the two concepts that he was already familiar with, and put them together. It's not like Luffy just got hit with AdCoC and was like..... "Oh, Kaido must be flowing his CoC into his attack" without ever knowing what the principal behind flowing haki is. That is what you are acting like happened. Luffy had no clue about flowing haki, no clue about CoC, and then BAM mastered both on the spot because he got KOed.

If it was this easy to use ACoC, then why is it so exclusive? Why didn't Rayleigh teach Luffy ryuo and tell him how ACoC works? Why didn't Chinjao, Doffy, Kata, or Kid ever learn ACoA if this power seemingly makes you an instant low top tier and even people like kinemon can use it?

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

After 1010., Kaido said Luffy's CoC mastery was bad and he was easily defeated in 1013. In 1026, Luffy splits the sky and his CoC is portrayed to be close in strength to kaido's(as evident in the later chapters detailing their fight).

Luffy got a haki power up out of thin air.

That's because he literally just started using it. He infrequently used FS is the Katakuri fight as well, and the more he used it, the better he got with it, to the point where he was on par with Katakuri by the end of the fight. That's how it works.

 

[Monkey D Theories]

Oda basically pulled ACoC out of his ass. CoC is about conquering wills, CoA is an invisible armor. How does ACoC make your attacks stronger? Oda didn't even develop this power before giving it to Luffy via asspull.

And I might have been okay with it if this was the only major power up Luffy got against kaido. But not only did he awaken and then master ACoC, Luffy awakened his DF on top of this? Jesus christ Oda didn't even explain how awakening works before giving it to Luffy.

@Celestial D. Dragon do you really not see anything wrong with Oda spamming so many power ups for Luffy? Especially when he only got 1-2 power ups pre-skip(the gears) and those were something Luffy created out of his own ingenuity.

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2022

That's because he literally just started using it. He infrequently used FS is the Katakuri fight as well, and the more he used it, the better he got with it, to the point where he was on par with Katakuri by the end of the fight. That's how it works.

This isn't even a fair comparison. Luffy's CoO wasn't equal to Kata's, that's why he could barely hit him until he went snakeman(and even then, kata was dodging some of his blows).