Controversial RELIGIONS & SPIRITUALITIES : Conversations

other than that, i dont think science over religion needs to be the case. religion offers alot to people that they wont just find in science, and thats fine. there are also plenty irreligious people who dont value science or care about it.
I agree.. I think a bit of discussion is cool and that why I'm replying sometimes. But If I listened to myself, I would launch pages upon pages of existentialist and cosmological rethoric explaining why God is not needed in the reflexion.

But I don't want to pollute that space too much.
 
he just wanted to preach nothing else
What? Did you even read my post fully? I was explaining why circumcision in Judaism and why it isn't in Christianism.
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then we get to basically the same issue @Logiko brought up with his question of who created god.

because that supernatural entity that defies time and space is more complex than the universe you claim has to have an intelligence orchestrating it.
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interesting because people here insinuated i was a materialist lul
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same with the supposed argument about earth on life only being possible due to factors like the right distance to the sun and so on.

and how it cant be that random chance brought us on this planet. whereas its actually quite obvious that life only arises where the circumstances that make it possible are present.
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it depends on the muslim really. some are just fine with knowing about their own scriptures and history, some dont even know that.
In Christian theology, God is timeless(atemporal and infinite). He has no beginning or ending. God IS. In Christian belief, God isn't caused by anything, but is the cause of everything. A God cannot have a beginning or cause ,because this would contradict what being a God means.
“The evidence is in, and the consensus of cosmologists is that the universe didn’t used to be here.”
Interesting reading,:
https://renew.org/where-did-god-come-from/
Muslims make a similar argument it seems:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument#:~:text=The most prominent form of,the universe has a cause.
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well people can choose to believe on bad/no evidence, but they better not expect me to join in.

other than that, i dont think science over religion needs to be the case. religion offers alot to people that they wont just find in science, and thats fine. there are also plenty irreligious people who dont value science or care about it.
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emphasis on "could".
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:kayneshrug:he just posted some bible quotes on circumcision though
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@NAMELESS i have heard about one of the apocryphal gospels having jesus rejecting circumcision on the premise that humans are created in the image of god. i dont quite remember which one though. have you heard about this?
Jesus did say that circumcision or uncircumcision didn't mean anything. "Circumcise your heart".
Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, remove the foreskins of your hearts, O men of Judah and people of Jerusalem. Otherwise, My wrath will break out like fire and burn with no one to extinguish it, because of your evil deeds."
Jeremiah 9:25 "Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will punish all who are circumcised yet uncircumcised:
Romans 2:26 If a man who is not circumcised keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical.
Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise does not come from men, but from God.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love
Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands.
Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commandments is what matters.
Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and stiffen your necks no more.
Deuteronomy 30:6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, and you will love Him with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live.
 
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In Christian theology, God is timeless(atemporal and infinite). He has no beginning or ending. God IS. In Christian belief, God isn't caused by anything, but is the cause of everything. A God cannot have a beginning or cause ,because this would contradict what being a God means.
im well aware, just pointing out an issue with that and your previous claim that the universe needs an intelligence behind it because its complex.

either that is true (and then it must be true for god as well), or it isnt and the universe can be a thing without any intelligence behind it.

“The evidence is in, and the consensus of cosmologists is that the universe didn’t used to be here.”
Interesting reading,:
https://renew.org/where-did-god-come-from/
Muslims make a similar argument it seems:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument#:~:text=The most prominent form of,the universe has a cause.
i would need some source about the bolded part.

because as far as i am aware, that premise of the kalam isnt justfied

and yeah, its used by muslims and christians, which also sets off an alarm with me, because it then doesnt point to any particular god. could as well be some entity that kickstarted everything and didnt do shit since then.
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Jesus did say that circumcision or uncircumcision didn't mean anything. "Circumcise your heart".
Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, remove the foreskins of your hearts, O men of Judah and people of Jerusalem. Otherwise, My wrath will break out like fire and burn with no one to extinguish it, because of your evil deeds."
Jeremiah 9:25 "Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will punish all who are circumcised yet uncircumcised:
Romans 2:26 If a man who is not circumcised keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical.
Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise does not come from men, but from God.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love
Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands.
Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commandments is what matters.
Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and stiffen your necks no more.
Deuteronomy 30:6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, and you will love Him with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live.
i take this as a no.

eventually i wanna read the apocryphal gospels in the future though.
 
I can understand how what I say can sound weird for those are not used to the materialist approach but that funny.. because what I say in reality, is really not the next level.

I'm usually saying mostly basic leftist stuff from a materialist, progressist and anti-capitalist point of view...


Don't be so sure.

Let's tale a metaphore. Let's say that you have a magic bow that can shot 1000 arrows at once.

When you are shooting those arrows toward a target, they will scatter. And the probability to hit the center of the target will be very high.

In fact with some theories, ( @Reborn might explain that better than me), it's a multiverse that was created at the beginning. This means that the existence launch a infinite number of possibilities with an infinite number of universal constant...

... and we just happen to be the one universe (or one of those) who can remain sightly stable because our Universe just happens to have the right balance.

This does not explain the presence of nothing instead of nothing tho.. but it shows that we might just be very lucky.
I heard that argument before somewhere. I agree with it. Still, how come can something be generated out of nothing. God cannot have a beginning or else that would create a infinite loop of cause and effect. If god has a cause,that cause itself has a beginning of it owns and this would repeat infinitely and we now that isn't possible because our Universe is finite,therefore God isn't caused by anything,but is the cause of everything.
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im well aware, just pointing out an issue with that and your previous claim that the universe needs an intelligence behind it because its complex.

either that is true (and then it must be true for god as well), or it isnt and the universe can be a thing without any intelligence behind it.


i would need some source about the bolded part.

because as far as i am aware, that premise of the kalam isnt justfied

and yeah, its used by muslims and christians, which also sets off an alarm with me, because it then doesnt point to any particular god. could as well be some entity that kickstarted everything and didnt do shit since then.
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i take this as a no.

eventually i wanna read the apocryphal gospels in the future though.
As i just said to Logiko, God isn't subjected to the laws of our universe. If God had a beginning,that would create an infinite loop,because whatever originated God would certainly have an origin of its own and this would perpetuate forever,which is not possible since our universe is finite.
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im well aware, just pointing out an issue with that and your previous claim that the universe needs an intelligence behind it because its complex.

either that is true (and then it must be true for god as well), or it isnt and the universe can be a thing without any intelligence behind it.


i would need some source about the bolded part.

because as far as i am aware, that premise of the kalam isnt justfied

and yeah, its used by muslims and christians, which also sets off an alarm with me, because it then doesnt point to any particular god. could as well be some entity that kickstarted everything and didnt do shit since then.
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i take this as a no.

eventually i wanna read the apocryphal gospels in the future though.
I don't think a have a link for that, i took that from that text. Its right in the middle of it.
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either that is true (and then it must be true for god as well), or it isnt and the universe can be a thing without any intelligence behind it.
If this was the case,we would have an infinite loop. A Paradox basically. You see why God cannot have a cause now?
 
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As i just said to Logiko, God isn't subjected to the laws of our universe.
so special pleading as i predicted.

that isn't possible because our Universe is finite
baseless
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If this was the case,we would have an infinite loop. A Paradox basically. You see why God cannot have a cause now?
so the universe doesnt need an intelligence deity behind it because of its complexity.
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Still, how come can something be generated out of nothing
while i also think this is likely to be the case, we dont have, and never had, this supposed "nothing" to conclusively know whether anything can come from it
 
so special pleading as i predicted.


baseless
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so the universe doesnt need an intelligence deity behind it because of its complexity.
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while i also think this is likely to be the case, we dont have, and never had, this supposed "nothing" to conclusively know whether anything can come from it
Look ,we don't have a good explanation for the origin of God. We go by what we got in the Bible. God presents himself and the one who "IS".
so the universe doesn't need an intelligence deity behind it because of its complexity.
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What do you mean?
 
so special pleading as i predicted.


baseless
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so the universe doesnt need an intelligence deity behind it because of its complexity.
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while i also think this is likely to be the case, we dont have, and never had, this supposed "nothing" to conclusively know whether anything can come from it
To be frank,i don't think God is something we can prove with our logical capability.
 
It makes no sense for the complexity that is the universe to be the result of a random event. An intelligence orchestrating it makes much more sense.
im referring to this post, where you say the complexity of the universe points to an intelligence orchestrating it.

but the same isnt true for god, despite gods complexity. so the first claim doesnt apply.
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To be frank,i don't think God is something we can prove with our logical capability.
i agree. and its a bummer that i will be tortured for eternity because im just not convinced :josad:
 
im referring to this post, where you say the complexity of the universe points to an intelligence orchestrating it.

but the same isnt true for god, despite gods complexity. so the first claim doesnt apply.
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i agree. and its a bummer that i will be tortured for eternity because im just not convinced :josad:
Not really, if we go by the logic of the universe,sure. But a God isn't subjected to the laws of its creation, just like an author isn't subjected to the laws of his writings. Did i explain this better now?
 
Not really, if we go by the logic of the universe,sure. But a God isn't subjected to the laws of its creation, just like an author isn't subjected to the laws of his writings. Did i explain this better now?
i understood the first time.

And who created god ?
[Insert special pleading argument]
I love this question because literally the only actual answer you'll ever hear is "We don't know./He just exists" which is hilarious
And i like this response, i will then in turn just claim the same about the universe
:willight:
 
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