I do! That's why Momo won't leave the country and ignore the snowballing danger to adventure in the seas. That was Oden's true mistake, it wasn't failing to kill Kaido when it was already too late. You might be overexaggerating strength as Momo's true value/potential.
The crew fought against Moria because they wandered into his territory and he stole their shadows. They wanted to help Brook as well, but he's not the reason they got roped into the conflict
Fine by me, if Yamato has a relevant backstory/role/dream shown in the future then ig she could join the crew, though she adds nothing imo. Doesn't change that she ain't killing kaido I'm afraid.
Have we seen any Strawhat kill anyone on screen? We know that Zoro was a bounty hunter who killed pirates because he got lost and needed to avoid starving, but we never actually see him do it.
Robin's in a similar boat as Zoro. We don't see her kill anyone, but it's explicitly confirmed that, yes, she has killed before
And as for Vivi, while they never SAY she killed anyone, she was one of the high-ranking members in a bounty hunter organization.
And also for what it's worth, there was a filler scene where Nami straight up murdered a guy
Don't show me filler please unless it means Zoro vs Dick was canon. But you're right, no one has brutally killed on-screen but if it's going to be someone, it's way more likely to be Zoro than a woman like Robin or Yamato. He's had the most brutal scenes and the reputation most likely to lead to killing on-screen. Plus there's the Ryuma parallels you seem to want to ignore.
You cannot compare the way Yamato and Momo inherited Oden's will to how the other samurai did. In Yamato's and Momo's case, them inheriting Oden's will tied into their identity as people. Their entire lives were built around how they chose to carry Oden's legacy. One of Wano's main themes is identity, and it's arguably best exemplified by Momo and Yamato
By comparison, Zoro's connection with Oden is pretty shallow. He got his sword and that's about it. While it is true that Zoro was given a lot of focus in Act 1 and 2, in Onigashima he's gotten significantly less focus than Momo and Yamato have. There's a reason they're the ones watching Luffy defeat Kaido, after all
Momo sure, he's had a ton of character spotlight in both important and subtle moments, but Yamato hasn't got even close to as much as Zoro. She's been shown as a fanatic a lot and she did smaller contributions earlier in the raid but few of them (if any at all) really rubbed our faces in how her character dictates she takes Kaido's life. Like I said, Momo could have some claim if he wasn't mentally a child and it was shown as his role in this arc.
If Zoro's going to make Enma black in its relevant arc of Wano, he'll be able to surpass Oden in what he couldn't do physically which would be killing Kaido. There are plenty of aspects of Oden and the samurai/people of Wano as a whole to go around.
Promised a ZKK thread on Sunday. Delivered on Saturday.
I find it ironic that people who pretend to know what "peak fiction" is are autistically screeching at every mention of ZKK while it might be closer to peak fiction, for OP standards, than they realize. At the same time, those "experts" have very weak or no valid argument why ZKK shouldn't happen.
I would describe the OP fandom as blind, unaware of anything that hasn't been spoonfed to them or specifically shown, if possible in the very last chapter. That is why we have them laughing at the idea of Zoro joining the fight against 2 Emperors in ch.999 while in the very next chapter 1000, they are tasting the salt of their own tears... Anyway, I digress, let's get back to the greatest ZKK thread you have ever seen!
Zoro killing Kaido, better known as ZKK, simply put, is a story about the failure of the once mighty and feared samurai.
We are here to understand the why, when, how and the who of it. Let us start with the who.
Who is it exactly that is writing this story? Who is that man and what are his wishes? For starters, Eiichiro Oda is a Japanese mangaka born and raised in a culture closer to samurai than any other. The story of One Piece is a testament to his research and knowledge about the culture of samurai and their beliefs as well as various mythologies from all across the globe. What was Eiichiro Oda's wish when he started as a mangaka, why did he draw one of his earliest works Monsters? Take a look for yourself:
"I simply wanted to draw something like a dragon being slain in a double-page spread." We all know it too well by now.
That is how he started but let us see what he did ~10 years ago:
Another dragon was slain by a samurai... Coincidence? Maybe. What happened a couple of months ago?
Another dragon was chopped up by a samurai... Can we say that we now have a pretty good idea of the who and that the man in question is not done with samurai slaying dragons?
Let us move on to the why. Why should ZKK happen?
A quick and shallow explanation, which works regardless, could be because it is necessary to put an effective end to Kaido.
However, there is a much bigger story that lays beneath it, a story of the failure of the samurai.
In all the earlier instances I mentioned above, the samurai ends up victorious over the mighty dragon but in the case of Kaido, the mightiest dragon of them all, the samurai have failed over and over again. This is a story about 20 years long failure of the samurai to slay the dragon.
This is a story about one samurai taking all burdens and hopes of the fallen samurai and delivering what no other could deliver.
The mighty samurai Ryuma and his legends have kept Wano safe for centuries, that's how powerful the fear of samurai is.
Even today, the Fleet Admiral of the greatest organization in the world treads lightly when Wano is in question all because of samurai legends.
The mightiest samurai the world has seen in recent years was Oden, a samurai who failed to slay the dragon Kaido.
His failure has started it all, the beginning of the long winter that descended on Wano Kuni...
While Kaido came closest to dying that day, ultimately Oden failed and realized that he had no strength to do what it takes and shifted from "the only thing I want is to cut your scaly neck" to "leave Wano and never come back". In his strongest strike, Oden realized his weakness.
Shortly after Oden's failure to slay the dragon, the Daimyo of all regions take up arms and challenge the dragon once again.
They too end up failing just like Oden and region after region falls under enemy control...
2 years later, Daimyo of Ringo, a samurai who in his youth was spitting image of Roronoa Zoro, tries to do the same.
He and his 2 companions try to slay the dragon and their efforts end up in a failure as well.
8 years after that or 10 years ago, impatient samurai who cant wait for the promised day in the future unsheath their swords once again.
Ashura Doji begs them to stop and come back. They don't listen. They have gone to slay the dragon and they all died.
The present arrived, the samurai who believed in the promised day have risen again and banded together with pirates to try once more that which has escaped the grasp of so many before them... On the night of the Fire Festival, when the dead are mourned and wishes sent into the skies, the samurai are raiding the Oni island to strike the dragon down for good!
And what happened? The dragon has mercilessly crushed the samurai once again!
The dragon who likes the way of samurai has started to mock them, because they lack strength.
Instead of calling them strong, he calls them stubborn weaklings with excuses who have accepted defeat into their hearts.
How long will this cocky dragon mock the samurai?
Who is the monster samurai of his dreams that shall grant him what he desires and which he cannot achieve by himself?
The stage takes the New Generation that is overthrowing the old. Five mighty pirates that have muscled their way into the New World, just like Oden said they would, point their weapons at the dragon that cannot die. Only one of those five is raised in Wano culture, only one of those five knows the way of the sword. Only one among them is a samurai!
While ignoring the other Emperor that is keeps the dragon's back safe, the mighty five focus on Kaido. Each of them wants a piece of the World's Strongest. And once again, the mighty dragon is triumphant, despite their best efforts, one after another falls or leaves the battle against the dragon without achieving anything... Only the samurai among them has managed to leave a permanent mark on the dragon's body, achieving the same that mighty samurai Oden had achieved before him. Even the mighty samurai of the New Generation has failed to slay the dragon. Is that where the tale of samurai and dragons ends? Some say that's it.
We found out who keeps putting the samurai and dragons against each other as well as why the samurai needs to slay the dragon.
Now, we get to how and when. How can Kaido be killed and when will it happen?
Zoro and Kaido are on a collision course a long time before they were even aware of each other, simply because they are a samurai and a dragon.
There is more to their conflict than just that but that is the main reason, aside from all the inherited will that I will not touch upon because plenty of others before me have done more than enough on that topic, several threads from @Cinera and at least one from @KiriNigiri on that topic if you are interested.
Another important reason for their clash is each of them is a representative of Yin and Yang, a tiger and a dragon.
Another reason is present and that is Kaido being the World's Strongest, something that Zoro is after, a thorn in his eye.
Ultimately, all inherited will aside, the main reason is that Zoro is a samurai who carried a lot of weight on his shoulders and only he is the one who can restore the glory of samurai and slay the dragon that nobody else could kill.
Known as the strongest creature alive, Kaido rules on land, sea or air. The mighty samurai who welcomes the suffering on the path of carnage(and boy, has he suffered in this arc more than ever before...) while representing the 3 strongest animals in each domain has also conquered the representatives of those domains individually and all that is left is to conquer the one who represents all 3 domains at the same time.
It is well known that Zoro represents a shark(sea), less known is Zoro represents a tiger(land) and completely unknown that Zoro also represents a dragon(air).
Zoro and dragons are a story that begins in East Blue when Zoro summoned the first spirit animal ever - a dragon!
When Zoro met the corpse of the legendary samurai who has slain a dragon he mentions that he doesnt even know if dragons really existed...
The same is confirmed when Zoro encounters the dragon face to face.
And you can see that Zoro's companions are all stunned by the dragon's presence while the samurai among them has already grabbed his sword and is ready to let the dragon taste his blade.
When they go at each other, Zoro summons the tiger as a spiritual animal, the dragon's nemesis!
The desire of a samurai to slay the dragon cannot be missed back then as well.
Due to the choices he made, Zoro is destined to become the name that shakes the world itself!
On the chosen path, fate itself also got its fingers involved as well. Both fate and destiny are at work here!
His desire to be the strongest in the world has set him on a path that was destined to eventually bring him in front of Kaido.
On that path, fate has given him Shusui, blade of the Sword God whose robbery from Wano signifies the descent of the long winter and whose return to Wano, by Zoro's hands, signals the end of that long winter. Zoro told King that his crew ruled Wano long enough and that it is time to go!
Speaking of King, what does it mean to the King?
Kaido's(World's Strongest) words towards 16-year-old Alber(Lunarian) - You are too STRONG for a regular name, call yourself King!
From that line, we know that STRENGTH gives you the name King. There are more of those who gained the name King due to strength.
In Ryuma's era he was named King due to being the strongest in the world.
Alber was named King because he was too strong for a regular name even as a kid.
Zoro promised he would become a King as well, the King of Hell.
And we have Roger's right hand, the Dark King.
The story is set up for the samurai to slay the dragon, for the new World's Strongest to slay the old World's Strongest.
Whether you believe Zoro is strong enough to do it or not, there is one thing you know deep down, even if you dont admit it.
You were blown away by what Zoro has done on the rooftop, you were speechless at his display of overwhelming strength.
And conveniently, Zoro is the only one who Oda chose to actually face against both of the Emperors at the same time.
If Zoro left you speechless once, he can do it again.
If Luffy can reach his peak in Wano, who says that Zoro cant reach his peak as well?
And considering that Luffy's peak came first, not too hard to understand that the main event is Zoro's peak.
Zoro is here to dethrone Kaido as World's Strongest and he has been set up towards it with countless hints.
The post-TS starts with Zoro wanting to go fishing. The man who never fished before wants to go fishing. Makes no sense.
Until, many years later, we found out that the name of Kaido's dragon fruit is actually a Fish-Fish fruit.
We also have a hint of Zoro eating out of a bowl that has a blue dragon on it...
Or perhaps when the alliance is formed to take down one of the 4 Emperors(Kaido), Zoro likes the idea!
We also have Zoro fully aware of Kaido targetting them.
Another hint that Kaido has to go is Kaido's own words - The world doesn't need two dragons!
The reason why the present is a generation where miracles happen is because those who could not be put together before are coming together and joining hands. Momonosuke is literally Kaido's dragon and he is the first dragon ever who is on the same side as the samurai instead of against him. We have several examples of samurai and dragon being friendly with each other, Zoro and Momonosuke:
Back on the topic of what it means to be the King...
Wano is referred to as hell many times and its current king is Kaido himself while Zoro promised to be the King of Hell...
The old king needs to go because the new king is coming. To become King of Hell, Zoro has to kill Kaido.
The king is dead, long live the king!
The name of the attack that ended the first encounter of the samurai Zoro and dragon Kaido is Dead Man's Game.
This could also refer to Kaido as the Dead Man who is playing his last game while at the same time could mean that this game belongs to the Dead Man(Zoro)...
The story of samurai and dragons doesnt end with Zoro and Kaido.
In the world of One Piece, dragons come in many shapes and forms.
They have their devil fruits named Dragon-Dragon fruit or they are the current "gods" of the world - the Celestial Dragons!
Fate has already crossed their paths once and they will soon cross again.
But forget that part for now, this is a story of ZKK...
In the latest chapter, we found out the name of Kaido's attack referring to the one who has defeated God of Death(Enma).
It refers to Kaido defeating the previous owner of Enma, Oden because Kaido has never defeated the new owner.
Zoro and Enma are an old story, beginning during Skypiea when the chapter is named Robin vs Yama(another name for Enma) while Zoro is sitting at a shrine which we can assume to be Enma shrine due to Yama in the chapter's name... That's how it began and it moved on to Zoro reaching the Enma shrine in Wano many years later... We also have Zoro's current situation, the Grim Reaper has claimed his soul and it went to be judged by the God of Death, Enma.
Becoming King of Hell has many meanings. Kaido's words "Death completes a person" came true and we have seen it through Luffy and it will come true for Zoro as well. He will become complete and reach his peak when this ordeal with God of Death is finished.
Soon, instead of this
we will have this
The anime has already spoiled Kaido burning the capital with Borobreath and that is when the mighty samurai needs to step up.
It will happen very soon, the best bet is chapter 1056 which signals 400 chapters after the dragon-slaying on Punk Hazard and 400 years after Ryuma.
Before it happens, Zoro might wake up and take a swing at the dragon's scaly neck and we would have the dragon's life flashing before his eyes until 1056.
The how is a little problematic to figure out due to many things thematically making sense but if we think about what actually makes sense, only one option remains. Remember this?
The good old promise of rounding up the samurai that never came true... Because it wasn't supposed to! Not yet.
The samurai following Zoro's lead was never supposed to happen in Wano, it is reserved for after Wano when samurai face celestial dragons.
Zoro never proved himself to the samurai of Wano, they never witnessed his greatness.
They still think of Oden as the greatest samurai, even Kinemon who saw a display of Zoro's strength in Dressrosa...
For them, Oden Nitoryu is still the greatest style there is.
The samurai of Wano need to witness that Nitoryu is not the greatest style there is. Thus the how needs to happen with Santoryu or with the Kyutoryu which is an extension of Santoryu while at the same time it shows them a new Sword God. Some practitioners of Wano's Nitoryu have already realized the inevitable and switched to the supreme sword style.
We have reached the end of today's tale.
If you made it this far, you now understand the story behind ZKK a little bit better.
Only one question is left to answer - Is Kitetsu-dono preaching or is all of this just a fiction of a mad man?
No sake or regular meat today, the only thing left is dragon barbeque!
Now that this shit is over, let me tell you something: you don’t know much about “samurais”.
Samurais aren’t people acting like a retard with a sword, them having a sword isn’t even mandatory.
Someone like Akainu, what you define as “textbook psychopath” according to modern psychology, in a time where samurais/knights don’t even exist anymore, with his loyalty, misplaced as it may be, to the WG, and his decisions to badmouth them when they do something stupid but still follow through out of a code of honor, is a samurai, Zoro is not, he’s not even from Wano to begin with, so he’s by technicality a weeb who likes to use katanas.
Not that it matters, this was never “samurai and dragons” or Akainu, the moment Luffy got his df retconned into a Diespiter archetype, Oda re-enacted Zeus vs Typhon, complete with Oda lazily copypasting Typhon dying on a volcano.
Why did you care more about Zoro killing Kaidou, than Zoro’s conversation with Luffy regarding Sanji? Oda didn’t even care to have Zoro have a gag with Luffy regarding Big Mom coming to Wano AND allying with Kaidou, all thanks to Sanji. He transformed Zoro into a hollow plot device, just like he did with the Minks at the beginning of Zou, who preferred having their entire secluded race die out, rather than handing a stranger to Jack, Kidd who didn’t have a grudge with BM unlike Kaidou, and Law, always willing to play the little bitch of Luffy and crying about his low (read:infinite) stamina, Zoro has become just like them, a cardboard character, only to serve as a plot device for Nika, ahem, Luffy to reach his destiny. Hell Kaidou fans should be glad Kaidou died,the way it was going with this Joyboy shit (the core reason this manga has gone to shit, transforming One Piece from an adventure manga, to retards spamming theories for every single fucking thing, accompanied to a prophecy linked to the dumbest name Oda could come up with) he was spared the humiliation of being killed by Luffy’s number one slut, or worse, joining the ever-growing list of Luffy’s cocksuckers.
To be a Zoro fan and Luffy hater is nonsensical, Zoro is nothing more than an extension of Luffy at this point, and don’t give me the muh hardwork excuse in a setting where haki exists, and stuff like CoC is hereditary so people like Yamato at 8YO fantasizing about being someone else has it, maybe Oda won’t offpanel Zoro vs Mihawk and give it 1-2 chapters, after Mihawk asks permission to fight to Buggy of all people because Oda thinks it’s funny, it’s time you stop avoiding the inevitable with Zoro, and pick a real choice: wank someone you KNOW, won’t suck Luffy’s cock off, become a Luffy cocksucker yourself, or altogether stop reading this manga. Being a fan of Zoro is more hollow than his character after the timeskip.
So you are willing to ignore the facts about samurai and dragons that I summed up in this thread just because ZKK didnt happen?
Why am I even asking, of course you will ignore them...
So you are willing to ignore the facts about samurai and dragons that I summed up in this thread just because ZKK didnt happen?
Why am I even asking, of course you will ignore them...
Ironic, because you stopped at that, and ignored the rest.
That is inconsequential, as I already stated, Zoro is not a samurai.
Whether the aspects you interpreted are true, and Oda just missed out upon, or the rambling of a zorofan isn’t even the point.
Zoro is not a samurai, and whatever “facts” you saw are incomplete, because they are born out of your headcanons on what a samurai is, rather than what they were.
Have you ever heard of the term Kirisute-gomen? Because that’s exactly what Akainu did against Koby on Marineford.
A samurai isn’t someone with an easily nicked katana that does crazy slashes, so that someone says “n-nani? What happened”? Only to have them being cut in half seconds later.
A samurai is, if we go by this forum’s “naming conventions” a dignified government dog, who’s goal is to keep the stability of their lord’s reign, and direct them, if the situation requires it. Zoro isn’t that, Zoro is the mindless tool of a psychotic and chaotic chosen one who’s only guided by instinct and fickleness, and that’s me being generous and ignoring zoans having a will of their own, though, an argument could be made that Luffy, technically is more of a samurai than Zoro because he’s a (in my opinion corrupted) Diespiter archetype, who embodies order in fiction/religions and helped Momo stabilize Wano and gave him courage to lead when he instructed him to bite Kaidou through it.
Also yeah, the same goes for that shitty CDPR game image you posted, I can cut them some slack though, considering that at the time the Cyberpunk genre was popular, Japanese had the economy burst, and was scaring Western Countries, so, evil corporations, a key role in that genre almost always were Zaibatsus, kinda like right now, you’d find Russian or Chinese mainly being villains. So they took “samurai” as a cool word connected to the genre’s roots, rather than what it was, but here’s the thing, Oda is japanese unlike CDPR, so his knowledge should be above regarding it.
That's where you fail.
Do your research on why Zoro IS a samurai and then we can move on to other stuff.
Do you remember where Zoro grew up? In which culture?
Whose combat style he was taught? On whose combat style he built upon his own?
Whose dreams he carries in his teeth? Who was called Bushido?
Now that this shit is over, let me tell you something: you don’t know much about “samurais”.
Samurais aren’t people acting like a retard with a sword, them having a sword isn’t even mandatory.
Someone like Akainu, what you define as “textbook psychopath” according to modern psychology, in a time where samurais/knights don’t even exist anymore, with his loyalty, misplaced as it may be, to the WG, and his decisions to badmouth them when they do something stupid but still follow through out of a code of honor, is a samurai, Zoro is not, he’s not even from Wano to begin with, so he’s by technicality a weeb who likes to use katanas.
Not that it matters, this was never “samurai and dragons” or Akainu, the moment Luffy got his df retconned into a Diespiter archetype, Oda re-enacted Zeus vs Typhon, complete with Oda lazily copypasting Typhon dying on a volcano.
Why did you care more about Zoro killing Kaidou, than Zoro’s conversation with Luffy regarding Sanji? Oda didn’t even care to have Zoro have a gag with Luffy regarding Big Mom coming to Wano AND allying with Kaidou, all thanks to Sanji. He transformed Zoro into a hollow plot device, just like he did with the Minks at the beginning of Zou, who preferred having their entire secluded race die out, rather than handing a stranger to Jack, Kidd who didn’t have a grudge with BM unlike Kaidou, and Law, always willing to play the little bitch of Luffy and crying about his low (read:infinite) stamina, Zoro has become just like them, a cardboard character, only to serve as a plot device for Nika, ahem, Luffy to reach his destiny. Hell Kaidou fans should be glad Kaidou died,the way it was going with this Joyboy shit (the core reason this manga has gone to shit, transforming One Piece from an adventure manga, to retards spamming theories for every single fucking thing, accompanied to a prophecy linked to the dumbest name Oda could come up with) he was spared the humiliation of being killed by Luffy’s number one slut, or worse, joining the ever-growing list of Luffy’s cocksuckers.
To be a Zoro fan and Luffy hater is nonsensical, Zoro is nothing more than an extension of Luffy at this point, and don’t give me the muh hardwork excuse in a setting where haki exists, and stuff like CoC is hereditary so people like Yamato at 8YO fantasizing about being someone else has it, maybe Oda won’t offpanel Zoro vs Mihawk and give it 1-2 chapters, after Mihawk asks permission to fight to Buggy of all people because Oda thinks it’s funny, it’s time you stop avoiding the inevitable with Zoro, and pick a real choice: wank someone you KNOW, won’t suck Luffy’s cock off, become a Luffy cocksucker yourself, or altogether stop reading this manga. Being a fan of Zoro is more hollow than his character after the timeskip.
Hmm i don't know where you got this notion of Zoro not a Samurai or even if Oda didn't show Zoro as such. Throughout the story we can see the culture of the Samurai throu Zoro's actions. And all the flashback and all the interactions we got of Zoro during Wano all leads to Zoro's following the same culture of those in Wano but influenced by the outside world more but his moral code is that of a Samurai except his beliefs which is the huge difference between him and Kineamon and all of Wano.
Is his origins of Wano? We don't know. Does it matter? No because a Samurai is a title given to those who follows the way of the warrior aka Bushido.
Is his birth place and his environment tied to Wano? Yes
Is his moral code and his actions speaks Samurai? Yes
Is his beliefs is the same as what Wano beliefs "Gods etc"? No
If you think Oda didn't care then i will give you 2 details. A minor one and a hidden one.
1- Zoro buried Yubashiri the same way the people of Ringo do. - tiny detail -
2- The Attack he beat King with can be translated to "High Class Samurai" a double meaning by Oda. - hidden detail -
Just because ZKK didn't happen it does not mean there was no Story for Zoro in Wano. It was there but Oda chose to keep it hidden after Zoro left the rooftop. Oda did say that Zoro's story won't be a major one in Wano but the fact he acknowledged that there is a Story debunks anyone saying there isn't.
"Zoro is nothing more than an extension of Luffy"
That is exactly what happened during the rooftop Zoro came up there not for Luffy but for Wano since it was his motivation but nothing comes 1st for Zoro other than Luffy. Oda showed us that Zoro cares more for Luffy than his Revenge for Wano and that ended his story with the defeat of King. Doing it for Luffy to ascend to PK not for Wano because that role he left for Luffy.
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And as for Vivi, while they never SAY she killed anyone, she was one of the high-ranking members in a bounty hunter organization.
