Chapter Discussion ScumBeard 999: Debunking Whitebeard 999 Apologists
- Thread starter Den_Den_Mushi
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Wano has been an absolute clusterfuck of retcons, overambitious cameos, shameless name-dropping and overcomplicated plotlines. The most egregious example however has to be chapter 999, in which it was revealed that Whitebeard was indeed aware of the dire situation in Wano, but simply chose not to act on it. Some have argued that this was perfectly in-character for Whitebeard, that his decision made sense or more amusingly, that his conflict with Oden somehow equates to telling an entire country to get fucked. Today, I will be debunking some common arguments I've seen from those who tried to defend Whitebeard's betrayal of his own values in chapter 999.
Argument 1: Oden was already dead.
Apparently, all that matters is that Oden died some time ago and this means that Wano is no longer of any concern to Whitebeard, or at least not worth investing his precious fodder army. Fuck Izo's sister Kiku whose death has not been confirmed, fuck Momo and Hiyori who were literally born on the Moby Dick, fuck all of those guys because MUHHH prophecy. Even if they had all died, however, this should not have made any difference to Whitebeard!
Regardless of whether or not Ace was alive, his capture and imprisonment was enough for Whitebeard to send his entire allied force into what was very clearly a deathtrap; an enclosed bay area requiring the pirates to storm through siege walls and an open space lined with artillery is nothing short of a suicidal bumrush, even for a yonko crew. In this case, Kaido had captured or possibly murdered two young children in cold blood, children that had been born on Whitebeard's very ship. If Momo and Hiyori are not family, then who is? Hiyori grew up watching her caretaker starve and ended up raised by a gangster as a prostitute in Wano, but fuck her I guess, no need to confirm her safety or anything because the unhinged ramblings of a dying woman will take care of everything amirite?
I've seen people compare Oden's situation to Thatch's murder, with Whitebeard choosing to let it go. All I have to say is, if you cannot see the difference between the death of a pirate and the potential murder and enslavement of two orphaned children, please consider taking up an ethics class or two.
Argument 2: Whitebeard believed that Oden could take care of Wano
This argument is beyond stupid. Ace clearly saw that Wano had become a lawless zone with poisoned land, starving people and children being kidnapped. Whatever Oden was doing was not working out. Yes, Whitebeard. Let the people suffer and starve just like your hometown for 20 years because MUHHH prophecy amirite? Anyone who dies within that twenty year time period was just weak or a worthy sacrifice for the greater good... whatever that is.
Argument 3: Fighting Kaido would be a bad idea
You know what else is a bad idea? Throwing your entire fleet into battle against the Marines and Shichibukai on their own turf, but I digress. If WB truly meant to fight Kaido, doing so while he was weaker would have made the most sense. We know that Kaido has fought Whitebeard in the past, and that his deal with Doflamingo and Caesar is a relatively recent affair.
Whitebeard should have been aware of Kaido's strength and the fact that he is indeed vulnerable. Actually, fuck that shit, give the dude 20 years to build up his strength while Whitebeard himself wastes away from illness, that ought to do it. 10/10 strategic thinking, dumbasses.
Because sending the WB pirates into battle against Babanuki and Holdem has the potential for too many casualties, but let's go ahead and throw them into the meat grinder that is Akainu and Mihawk because reasons. Then again, I am not surprised that people think this considering that there are those who believe that the admirals are commander level or below.
Argument 4: Whitebeard argued with oden (And???)
Of all the arguments defending 999 Whitebeard, this has to be the dumbest. So Whitebeard's beef with Oden was so serious that this meant telling Kiku, Momo, Hiyori and the entire country of Wano to go fuck itself? Do people arguing this even realise that this makes Whitebeard look even more like a petty scumbag? Furthermore, this goes against Whitebeard's entire character; the scene where Whitebeard forgives Squard shows that he is magnanimous and loyal, not some dimwit who would hold a stupid grudge for decades.
In short, the flimsy excuses offered by Oda and the fandom simply do not hold up with what we know of Whitebeard's character. If anything, the man who treasured family more than anything else should have tried to save or avenge Momo and Hiyori. There were other options open to him, like contacting Shanks and Rayleigh to march on Onigashima and demand the whereabouts of the children. How he could ever justify leaving an 8 and a 6 year old in a lawless zone is beyond me. The only explanation is that Oda's attempts to name-drop have gone the way of Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter. It's unnecessary, it doesn't make sense and if anything, it only ruins the established characters whose arcs were perfect as they were.
Argument 1: Oden was already dead.
Apparently, all that matters is that Oden died some time ago and this means that Wano is no longer of any concern to Whitebeard, or at least not worth investing his precious fodder army. Fuck Izo's sister Kiku whose death has not been confirmed, fuck Momo and Hiyori who were literally born on the Moby Dick, fuck all of those guys because MUHHH prophecy. Even if they had all died, however, this should not have made any difference to Whitebeard!
Regardless of whether or not Ace was alive, his capture and imprisonment was enough for Whitebeard to send his entire allied force into what was very clearly a deathtrap; an enclosed bay area requiring the pirates to storm through siege walls and an open space lined with artillery is nothing short of a suicidal bumrush, even for a yonko crew. In this case, Kaido had captured or possibly murdered two young children in cold blood, children that had been born on Whitebeard's very ship. If Momo and Hiyori are not family, then who is? Hiyori grew up watching her caretaker starve and ended up raised by a gangster as a prostitute in Wano, but fuck her I guess, no need to confirm her safety or anything because the unhinged ramblings of a dying woman will take care of everything amirite?
I've seen people compare Oden's situation to Thatch's murder, with Whitebeard choosing to let it go. All I have to say is, if you cannot see the difference between the death of a pirate and the potential murder and enslavement of two orphaned children, please consider taking up an ethics class or two.
Argument 2: Whitebeard believed that Oden could take care of Wano
This argument is beyond stupid. Ace clearly saw that Wano had become a lawless zone with poisoned land, starving people and children being kidnapped. Whatever Oden was doing was not working out. Yes, Whitebeard. Let the people suffer and starve just like your hometown for 20 years because MUHHH prophecy amirite? Anyone who dies within that twenty year time period was just weak or a worthy sacrifice for the greater good... whatever that is.
Argument 3: Fighting Kaido would be a bad idea
You know what else is a bad idea? Throwing your entire fleet into battle against the Marines and Shichibukai on their own turf, but I digress. If WB truly meant to fight Kaido, doing so while he was weaker would have made the most sense. We know that Kaido has fought Whitebeard in the past, and that his deal with Doflamingo and Caesar is a relatively recent affair.
Whitebeard should have been aware of Kaido's strength and the fact that he is indeed vulnerable. Actually, fuck that shit, give the dude 20 years to build up his strength while Whitebeard himself wastes away from illness, that ought to do it. 10/10 strategic thinking, dumbasses.
Because sending the WB pirates into battle against Babanuki and Holdem has the potential for too many casualties, but let's go ahead and throw them into the meat grinder that is Akainu and Mihawk because reasons. Then again, I am not surprised that people think this considering that there are those who believe that the admirals are commander level or below.
Argument 4: Whitebeard argued with oden (And???)
Of all the arguments defending 999 Whitebeard, this has to be the dumbest. So Whitebeard's beef with Oden was so serious that this meant telling Kiku, Momo, Hiyori and the entire country of Wano to go fuck itself? Do people arguing this even realise that this makes Whitebeard look even more like a petty scumbag? Furthermore, this goes against Whitebeard's entire character; the scene where Whitebeard forgives Squard shows that he is magnanimous and loyal, not some dimwit who would hold a stupid grudge for decades.
In short, the flimsy excuses offered by Oda and the fandom simply do not hold up with what we know of Whitebeard's character. If anything, the man who treasured family more than anything else should have tried to save or avenge Momo and Hiyori. There were other options open to him, like contacting Shanks and Rayleigh to march on Onigashima and demand the whereabouts of the children. How he could ever justify leaving an 8 and a 6 year old in a lawless zone is beyond me. The only explanation is that Oda's attempts to name-drop have gone the way of Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter. It's unnecessary, it doesn't make sense and if anything, it only ruins the established characters whose arcs were perfect as they were.
If I could like this post a thousand times, I definitely would.
I swear to god, I'm sick and tired of seeing peeps here defend the outright stupid decisions Oda made with Whitebeard in ch 999... Do people really not understand jack shit about WB?? Wtf...
And you've displayed those arguments in ways better than I possibly could.
Like, the dude literally turned WB into a full time cuck, and it was a disgrace.
This wasn't what WB was renowned and feared around the world for... the admirals at MF literally feared and anticipated what WB was gonna do when Ace was handed to them... and WB did just that... Buggy even outright says what he knew about WB... And all this, for what?
Oden's children were born on WB's ship, and they were as much a family to WB as Marco, Jozu, Izo etc... yet WB thought it was a good idea to leave these helpless children to their misery? What the flying fuck?
But apparently, Oda thought this was a good fucking idea.
Like, I swear to God, you know writing is this trash and when you have people trying to find lame flimsy excuses to justify this shit and throw random paint in the wall in the hopes that everything works...
No, it fucking doesn't.
Hell, this was even a contradiction for crying out loud...
Marco literally said they didn't know anything about it 20 or so chapters ago.. so what is this shit?
H
While people can come up with reasons (some of which are poor, some solid) for why WB decided not to go, one thing that cannot be denied is the fact that Oda wrote himself to a corner with all of this to begin with. This was the primary reason why people had an issue with this. And this goes back 982, where Marco says that he “didn’t know how bad things have gottten”
Yet in 999, he says this:
This is a blatant plot hole cover up attempt that doesn’t even need to spelled out. Oda could not have made them unaware of Wano because that wouldn’t make any sense but at the same time Oda somehow saw it fit for them to be aware to the point where they considered invading the place multiple times. This is the bigger issue imo, WB’s decision not to go is weird and somewhat arguable at best, however Marco going from not knowing how bad things were to being almost fully aware is even weirder than anything else in 999.
F
What do you guys think about convo WB and Roger had ? Is it possible whitebeard was awaiting for the will of D to open wano border ?
@Den_Den_Mushi @Haoshoku
@Den_Den_Mushi @Haoshoku
There is nothing out of line with Whitebeard's character here. He was never once portrayed as a vengeful person, who would hunt you down to the end of the earth if you killed one of his own. In fact, he was portrayed as the exact opposite as that, as shown when it came to Thatch. Did he want to kill Blackbeard for it? Of course, as by his own admission he was going to make it his last act, before his own death. But never once did he go out of his way to try and enact revenge. That was not the type of person he was portrayed to be.
There is a lot of misconception surrounding his character due to statements that "Whitebeard doesn't forgive anyone who messes with one of his own." People take that as he's some kind of psychopath who won't stop until the blood of his enemies turn oceans red. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Just because he doesn't forgive those who mess with one of his sons, it doesn't mean he will make it a personal mission to seek to take revenge on someone who does.
This stems from people having a gross misunderstanding about Whitebeard's objective during Marineford. You guys believe he went to war with the World Government, because they "messed with Ace." That is NOT the reason why Whitebeard went to War with the Marines. He went to war with them to save Ace, because Ace still had a fighting chance at life. Saving Ace from being killed was worth Whitebeard, and everyone else risking their lives over. There was a justifiable payoff at the end, that rationalized them willing to put their own lives on the line.
When it came to Oden, there was none of that. Whitebeard had learned of Oden's death years after it had happened. A death brought upon Oden, from a battle of his own choosing. What is the rationale for going to war with Kaido over that? They show up on Wano, countless people die, they might win or they might lose, but in the end, what did they gain? Absolutely nothing. Satisfaction that they avenged Oden? What about those who died in the process? Is "satisfaction" enough of a reason to justify their deaths? Of course not.
And then what about Orochi? Were the Whitebeard Pirates supposed to kill him too? Are the citizens going to accept a Pirate crew coming into their country and killing their Shogun? Does it open the Borders? No, because that was Oden's dream that was lost with his death. A dream that wouldn't be revived until Kinemon and Co showed up years later in the future. The only thing it would have accomplished, was further increasing animosity from the citizens of Wano towards outsiders.
At then end of the day there is a multitude of reasoning behind why Whitebeard made the correct decision on not going to war with Kaido, and the only reasoning I see that argues against it is because of a skewed understanding of Whitebeards character.
There is a lot of misconception surrounding his character due to statements that "Whitebeard doesn't forgive anyone who messes with one of his own." People take that as he's some kind of psychopath who won't stop until the blood of his enemies turn oceans red. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Just because he doesn't forgive those who mess with one of his sons, it doesn't mean he will make it a personal mission to seek to take revenge on someone who does.
This stems from people having a gross misunderstanding about Whitebeard's objective during Marineford. You guys believe he went to war with the World Government, because they "messed with Ace." That is NOT the reason why Whitebeard went to War with the Marines. He went to war with them to save Ace, because Ace still had a fighting chance at life. Saving Ace from being killed was worth Whitebeard, and everyone else risking their lives over. There was a justifiable payoff at the end, that rationalized them willing to put their own lives on the line.
When it came to Oden, there was none of that. Whitebeard had learned of Oden's death years after it had happened. A death brought upon Oden, from a battle of his own choosing. What is the rationale for going to war with Kaido over that? They show up on Wano, countless people die, they might win or they might lose, but in the end, what did they gain? Absolutely nothing. Satisfaction that they avenged Oden? What about those who died in the process? Is "satisfaction" enough of a reason to justify their deaths? Of course not.
And then what about Orochi? Were the Whitebeard Pirates supposed to kill him too? Are the citizens going to accept a Pirate crew coming into their country and killing their Shogun? Does it open the Borders? No, because that was Oden's dream that was lost with his death. A dream that wouldn't be revived until Kinemon and Co showed up years later in the future. The only thing it would have accomplished, was further increasing animosity from the citizens of Wano towards outsiders.
At then end of the day there is a multitude of reasoning behind why Whitebeard made the correct decision on not going to war with Kaido, and the only reasoning I see that argues against it is because of a skewed understanding of Whitebeards character.
I have no idea why people are putting their 'misplaced criticism' on things that doesn't deserve criticism. I swear, the so called 'pretentious critics' will 'criticize' everything just for the sake of it. When someone offers counter arguments, they name call bootlickers as such while pretending 'I am open to reasonable arguments'.
