Chapter Discussion ScumBeard 999: Debunking Whitebeard 999 Apologists

Do you think Oda should have left Whitebeard and Ace out of Wano?

  • Yes

  • No

  • He could have handled them better.


Results are only viewable after voting.
#1
Wano has been an absolute clusterfuck of retcons, overambitious cameos, shameless name-dropping and overcomplicated plotlines. The most egregious example however has to be chapter 999, in which it was revealed that Whitebeard was indeed aware of the dire situation in Wano, but simply chose not to act on it. Some have argued that this was perfectly in-character for Whitebeard, that his decision made sense or more amusingly, that his conflict with Oden somehow equates to telling an entire country to get fucked. Today, I will be debunking some common arguments I've seen from those who tried to defend Whitebeard's betrayal of his own values in chapter 999.

Argument 1: Oden was already dead.
Apparently, all that matters is that Oden died some time ago and this means that Wano is no longer of any concern to Whitebeard, or at least not worth investing his precious fodder army. Fuck Izo's sister Kiku whose death has not been confirmed, fuck Momo and Hiyori who were literally born on the Moby Dick, fuck all of those guys because MUHHH prophecy. Even if they had all died, however, this should not have made any difference to Whitebeard!



Regardless of whether or not Ace was alive, his capture and imprisonment was enough for Whitebeard to send his entire allied force into what was very clearly a deathtrap; an enclosed bay area requiring the pirates to storm through siege walls and an open space lined with artillery is nothing short of a suicidal bumrush, even for a yonko crew. In this case, Kaido had captured or possibly murdered two young children in cold blood, children that had been born on Whitebeard's very ship. If Momo and Hiyori are not family, then who is? Hiyori grew up watching her caretaker starve and ended up raised by a gangster as a prostitute in Wano, but fuck her I guess, no need to confirm her safety or anything because the unhinged ramblings of a dying woman will take care of everything amirite?

I've seen people compare Oden's situation to Thatch's murder, with Whitebeard choosing to let it go. All I have to say is, if you cannot see the difference between the death of a pirate and the potential murder and enslavement of two orphaned children, please consider taking up an ethics class or two.

Argument 2: Whitebeard believed that Oden could take care of Wano
This argument is beyond stupid. Ace clearly saw that Wano had become a lawless zone with poisoned land, starving people and children being kidnapped. Whatever Oden was doing was not working out. Yes, Whitebeard. Let the people suffer and starve just like your hometown for 20 years because MUHHH prophecy amirite? Anyone who dies within that twenty year time period was just weak or a worthy sacrifice for the greater good... whatever that is.


Argument 3: Fighting Kaido would be a bad idea
You know what else is a bad idea? Throwing your entire fleet into battle against the Marines and Shichibukai on their own turf, but I digress. If WB truly meant to fight Kaido, doing so while he was weaker would have made the most sense. We know that Kaido has fought Whitebeard in the past, and that his deal with Doflamingo and Caesar is a relatively recent affair.

Whitebeard should have been aware of Kaido's strength and the fact that he is indeed vulnerable. Actually, fuck that shit, give the dude 20 years to build up his strength while Whitebeard himself wastes away from illness, that ought to do it. 10/10 strategic thinking, dumbasses.

Because sending the WB pirates into battle against Babanuki and Holdem has the potential for too many casualties, but let's go ahead and throw them into the meat grinder that is Akainu and Mihawk because reasons. Then again, I am not surprised that people think this considering that there are those who believe that the admirals are commander level or below.

Argument 4: Whitebeard argued with oden (And???)
Of all the arguments defending 999 Whitebeard, this has to be the dumbest. So Whitebeard's beef with Oden was so serious that this meant telling Kiku, Momo, Hiyori and the entire country of Wano to go fuck itself? Do people arguing this even realise that this makes Whitebeard look even more like a petty scumbag? Furthermore, this goes against Whitebeard's entire character; the scene where Whitebeard forgives Squard shows that he is magnanimous and loyal, not some dimwit who would hold a stupid grudge for decades.


In short, the flimsy excuses offered by Oda and the fandom simply do not hold up with what we know of Whitebeard's character. If anything, the man who treasured family more than anything else should have tried to save or avenge Momo and Hiyori. There were other options open to him, like contacting Shanks and Rayleigh to march on Onigashima and demand the whereabouts of the children. How he could ever justify leaving an 8 and a 6 year old in a lawless zone is beyond me. The only explanation is that Oda's attempts to name-drop have gone the way of Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter. It's unnecessary, it doesn't make sense and if anything, it only ruins the established characters whose arcs were perfect as they were.

 
#3
Brilliant thread, but this part especially was pure gold:
Whitebeard should have been aware of Kaido's strength and the fact that he is indeed vulnerable. Actually, fuck that shit, give the dude 20 years to build up his strength while Whitebeard himself wastes away from illness, that ought to do it. 10/10 strategic thinking, dumbasses.

Because sending the WB pirates into battle against Babanuki and Holdem has the potential for too many casualties, but let's go ahead and throw them into the meat grinder that is Akainu and Mihawk because reasons. Then again, I am not surprised that people think this considering that there are those who believe that the admirals are commander level or below.
 
#4
Long written thread with combination of all certain 'flimsy' comments that oppose Whitebeard apologists won't debunk things just because you have written a long essay. The moment when you said Thatch is just a pirate shows that how clumsy your arguments are. Thatch is just a pirate for you but not for Whitebeard. And Whitebeard came to wano that Oden dead after a long time. Whitebeard IQ is certainly higher that he could connect the dots and come to conclusion that his off spring could also have dead. There are graves in Wano afterall. Everyone except Orochi believed they were dead. Don't impose your own morals on pirates. Oden was no longer the member of WBP so why should he personally go at a war for a dead person and stake the lives of his living family. Ace is still alive and has a chance.
 
#5
Oden humiliated Whitebeard by leaving his crew and joining his rival's crew, imagine Zoro or Nami leaving Luffy to join Kid's crew:whitepress:. Oden wasn't blackmailed, he joined Roger cause...:kayneshrug:

So why tf will Whitebeard even care about Oden and his family and let alone his country's people. Whitebeard is a pirate, his crew pillages towns lol he ain't a saint. He is no hero. If he was then he would have maybe allied with Dragon and The Revolutionary to topple World Government for abandoning his country which made him an orphan, he lost his family and country due to World Government not supporting his country but he never tried to avenge his family or country by directly challenging world government.

So a dude who didn't tried to avenge his own family or country will for some absurd reason will come to attack Wano because the motherfucker's, who humiliated him by joining his rival's crew, daughter has to be a prostitute:gokulaugh:

As for Ace it was a rescue mission (also yk Ace is a plot device) it wasn't to defeat World Government, Whitebeard came to rescue Ace not to avenge his capture and Whitebeard also wanted to die there. Basically get Ace then retreat....after Ace was rescued Whitebeard told his crew to go back to New World without him cuz he wanted to die there and it was that until Ace had to take the bait from Papazuki and get fisted to be a donut...

Nothing about Whitebeard's character is retconned, For Me atleast. And Wano is an enjoyable arc minus the Udon and some parts of Oden's flashback
 
F

Fallen Prince

#6
I need decent explanation with flashback unless whitebeard was aware about a person who will open wano border then he may have respected oden's wish .

I am pissed of with flashback as well it doesnt match wb's character at all but i remember his convo with roger was probably important.

Also we know there is something about Toki waiting for a person maybe she probably tolld crucial info about the upcoming war when Joyboy appears.
 
#7
Its not out of Whitebeard's character. He also didnt want Ace to go after Thatch's killer.

Oden was not even a WB pirate when he went back to Wano. He refused to take help from his own crew, that is Roger's crew, "Rayleigh, Redtaro, Buggyjuro, I thank you. But this is something we of the Kozuki clan must solve on our own"

But lets all blame only Whitebeard for not taking revenge, smh
 
F

Fallen Prince

#8
Oden humiliated Whitebeard by leaving his crew and joining his rival's crew, imagine Zoro or Nami leaving Luffy to join Kid's crew:whitepress:. Oden wasn't blackmailed, he joined Roger cause...:kayneshrug:

So why tf will Whitebeard even care about Oden and his family and let alone his country's people. Whitebeard is a pirate, his crew pillages towns lol he ain't a saint. He is no hero. If he was then he would have maybe allied with Dragon and The Revolutionary to topple World Government for abandoning his country which made him an orphan, he lost his family and country due to World Government not supporting his country but he never tried to avenge his family or country by directly challenging world government.

So a dude who didn't tried to avenge his own family or country will for some absurd reason will come to attack Wano because the motherfucker's, who humiliated him by joining his rival's crew, daughter has to be a prostitute:gokulaugh:

As for Ace it was a rescue mission (also yk Ace is a plot device) it wasn't to defeat World Government, Whitebeard came to rescue Ace not to avenge his capture and Whitebeard also wanted to die there. Basically get Ace then retreat....after Ace was rescued Whitebeard told his crew to go back to New World without him cuz he wanted to die there and it was that until Ace had to take the bait from Papazuki and get fisted to be a donut...

Nothing about Whitebeard's character is retconned, For Me atleast. And Wano is an enjoyable arc minus the Udon and some parts of Oden's flashback
What i dont understand why didnt wb reveal about will of D to Ace. Oden , wb, roger knew there would be a person who will open wano borders.
 
F

Fallen Prince

#10
Its not out of Whitebeard's character. He also didnt want Ace to go after Thatch's killer.

Oden was not even a WB pirate when he went back to Wano. He refused to take help from his own crew, that is Roger's crew, "Rayleigh, Redtaro, Buggyjuro, I thank you. But this is something we of the Kozuki clan must solve on our own"

But lets all blame only Whitebeard for not taking revenge, smh
Its a plot device though how much we look at it. Whitebeard probably hated wano but what about marco, izo who were close to oden?

That being said its more of manga fax , only thing that holds up is wb was patient person he knew something about wano and oda is yet to reveal.
 

Jew D. Boy

I Can Go Lower
#11
Wano has been an absolute clusterfuck of retcons, overambitious cameos, shameless name-dropping and overcomplicated plotlines. The most egregious example however has to be chapter 999, in which it was revealed that Whitebeard was indeed aware of the dire situation in Wano, but simply chose not to act on it. Some have argued that this was perfectly in-character for Whitebeard, that his decision made sense or more amusingly, that his conflict with Oden somehow equates to telling an entire country to get fucked. Today, I will be debunking some common arguments I've seen from those who tried to defend Whitebeard's betrayal of his own values in chapter 999.

Argument 1: Oden was already dead.
Apparently, all that matters is that Oden died some time ago and this means that Wano is no longer of any concern to Whitebeard, or at least not worth investing his precious fodder army. Fuck Izo's sister Kiku whose death has not been confirmed, fuck Momo and Hiyori who were literally born on the Moby Dick, fuck all of those guys because MUHHH prophecy. Even if they had all died, however, this should not have made any difference to Whitebeard!



Regardless of whether or not Ace was alive, his capture and imprisonment was enough for Whitebeard to send his entire allied force into what was very clearly a deathtrap; an enclosed bay area requiring the pirates to storm through siege walls and an open space lined with artillery is nothing short of a suicidal bumrush, even for a yonko crew. In this case, Kaido had captured or possibly murdered two young children in cold blood, children that had been born on Whitebeard's very ship. If Momo and Hiyori are not family, then who is? Hiyori grew up watching her caretaker starve and ended up raised by a gangster as a prostitute in Wano, but fuck her I guess, no need to confirm her safety or anything because the unhinged ramblings of a dying woman will take care of everything amirite?

I've seen people compare Oden's situation to Thatch's murder, with Whitebeard choosing to let it go. All I have to say is, if you cannot see the difference between the death of a pirate and the potential murder and enslavement of two orphaned children, please consider taking up an ethics class or two.

Argument 2: Whitebeard believed that Oden could take care of Wano
This argument is beyond stupid. Ace clearly saw that Wano had become a lawless zone with poisoned land, starving people and children being kidnapped. Whatever Oden was doing was not working out. Yes, Whitebeard. Let the people suffer and starve just like your hometown for 20 years because MUHHH prophecy amirite? Anyone who dies within that twenty year time period was just weak or a worthy sacrifice for the greater good... whatever that is.


Argument 3: Fighting Kaido would be a bad idea
You know what else is a bad idea? Throwing your entire fleet into battle against the Marines and Shichibukai on their own turf, but I digress. If WB truly meant to fight Kaido, doing so while he was weaker would have made the most sense. We know that Kaido has fought Whitebeard in the past, and that his deal with Doflamingo and Caesar is a relatively recent affair.

Whitebeard should have been aware of Kaido's strength and the fact that he is indeed vulnerable. Actually, fuck that shit, give the dude 20 years to build up his strength while Whitebeard himself wastes away from illness, that ought to do it. 10/10 strategic thinking, dumbasses.

Because sending the WB pirates into battle against Babanuki and Holdem has the potential for too many casualties, but let's go ahead and throw them into the meat grinder that is Akainu and Mihawk because reasons. Then again, I am not surprised that people think this considering that there are those who believe that the admirals are commander level or below.

Argument 4: Whitebeard argued with oden (And???)
Of all the arguments defending 999 Whitebeard, this has to be the dumbest. So Whitebeard's beef with Oden was so serious that this meant telling Kiku, Momo, Hiyori and the entire country of Wano to go fuck itself? Do people arguing this even realise that this makes Whitebeard look even more like a petty scumbag? Furthermore, this goes against Whitebeard's entire character; the scene where Whitebeard forgives Squard shows that he is magnanimous and loyal, not some dimwit who would hold a stupid grudge for decades.


In short, the flimsy excuses offered by Oda and the fandom simply do not hold up with what we know of Whitebeard's character. If anything, the man who treasured family more than anything else should have tried to save or avenge Momo and Hiyori. There were other options open to him, like contacting Shanks and Rayleigh to march on Onigashima and demand the whereabouts of the children. How he could ever justify leaving an 8 and a 6 year old in a lawless zone is beyond me. The only explanation is that Oda's attempts to name-drop have gone the way of Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter. It's unnecessary, it doesn't make sense and if anything, it only ruins the established characters whose arcs were perfect as they were.

This is all perfectly spot on, and I don’t understand why so many people here can’t see why this chapter is a total desecration of Whitebeard’s character. If he saw Oden as family, there’s no justifying why he would let the Kozuki homeland fall into complete disrepair or not come to Momo/Hiyori’s rescue. Casualties be damned; he and his crew were willing to die in Marineford, and he actually did! That was a perfectly acceptable thing to do for Ace, his biggest rival’s kid, but not for the guy who he came to see as a brother by the time he left Newgate for Roger? Nothing about the way he’s been portrayed - until the last chapter before the series hits the big 1000 - would indicate that he’d decline to do fucking ANYTHING to Kaido.
 
#12
Oden humiliated Whitebeard by leaving his crew and joining his rival's crew, imagine Zoro or Nami leaving Luffy to join Kid's crew:whitepress:. Oden wasn't blackmailed, he joined Roger cause...:kayneshrug:

So why tf will Whitebeard even care about Oden and his family and let alone his country's people. Whitebeard is a pirate, his crew pillages towns lol he ain't a saint. He is no hero. If he was then he would have maybe allied with Dragon and The Revolutionary to topple World Government for abandoning his country which made him an orphan, he lost his family and country due to World Government not supporting his country but he never tried to avenge his family or country by directly challenging world government.

So a dude who didn't tried to avenge his own family or country will for some absurd reason will come to attack Wano because the motherfucker's, who humiliated him by joining his rival's crew, daughter has to be a prostitute:gokulaugh:

As for Ace it was a rescue mission (also yk Ace is a plot device) it wasn't to defeat World Government, Whitebeard came to rescue Ace not to avenge his capture and Whitebeard also wanted to die there. Basically get Ace then retreat....after Ace was rescued Whitebeard told his crew to go back to New World without him cuz he wanted to die there and it was that until Ace had to take the bait from Papazuki and get fisted to be a donut...

Nothing about Whitebeard's character is retconned, For Me atleast. And Wano is an enjoyable arc minus the Udon and some parts of Oden's flashback
Roger had the courtesy to ask WB for permission for Oden to accompany him and even left him a lot of treasure in exchange ...
It is more humiliating to take all your children on a suicide mission to the navy headquarters to rescue the son of your rival lmao
Even from the beginning he had planned to kill many of his pirates with a damn tsunami and those who rescued Ace were Galdino and Luffy who were not from his crew ...
 
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#13
This just reeks of pretentiousness.

Do you really mean to tell me that the whole Kozuki clan was burnt down to the ground, there were graves of all their family members and yet the only word that goes out to WB out of this mess is solely about Odens death.

You conveniently omit the possibility of him having received the news of his family's demise yet you use assumptions of your own about his offsprings being alive for the counter arguments. The fact that you don't want to even account for that possibility makes it clear that this is meant to criticize the story just for the sake of it.

Your Thatch argument is horrible, first you question Whitebeard's morals when it comes to saving his own "family", yet again you want to conveniently let the fact of Thatch virtually being his "son" slide away to belittle his death just because he was a pirate.

It's evident in this series that the reputation is more straightforward than the nuances of reality. This is a series where people thought of Luffy as some 9 foot guy. So all the arguments of his character being rUiNEd because WB turned out to be a flawed character in comparison to what his legend says otherwise are weak.

And again comparing this with the Ace situation is being horribly disingenuous and an evident attempt to pounce upon anything just because you've taken a critical stance with the series or this sub plot before

Before any of these ethics classes I would say at least I'm happy that WB is sagacious enough to not launch an all out war for the sake of revenge, putting the lives of Wano's populace in jeopardy in the process, ironically the same reason why you people are deriding WB for not going moral policing around the whole world
 
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Uncle Van

Taxes Are a Sickness
#15
Kill his men and WB will hunt you down without question but we learned in MF that are a few exceptions to this. Blackbeard committed the biggest taboo under WB which is killing a crew member and WB held off going after him because he got a bad feeling, despite making it clear to Shanks that he does intend to punish BB in due time. It was heavily implied that it was his knowledge of the Void Century/Will of D that convinced WB to hold off on going after BB.

Oden was very clear about dealing with Wano alone and WB knew everything about the Void Century, Will of D and JoyBoy cause Roger told him(and that would include Wano's significance). It makes perfect sense that he would hold off thanks to the prophecy like how the Scabbards who stayed behind held off for 20 years. It was Marco's reasoning that there would be lots of casualties, not WB.
 
#16
We know like half of wano story. Other half is yet to be revealed. Two crews were connected to Oden. May be the revenge/retaliation will come from Roger group?

It makes sense if second crew does something big. Too much emphasis on inherited will and stuff. Only problem is, it will end up as unnecessary hype if none of it happens. I still believe Shanks and Buggy(unintentional) played their own role in saving Ace.
 
#17
Soo much over reaction.

WB knew that someday someone would come and open Wano and lead the world into the Dawn, seems that he even believe that Ace was this person, but this would be only the right time, Roger tell him of this things.


WB was Oden friend, but he is a pirate, not a hero who save everyone who have a shit live in the world, if Kaido try to take over one of the Islands under his protection for sure he would defend it, but Wano was not one if this, why create a huge war and put his sons lifes in the line for some random citizens of Wano when Oden was already dead, by the choices that Oden himself made.
 
H

Haoshoku

#19
I’m gonna wait for the official translation, however I think Oda could have handled it better. Removing WB and Ace completely from Wano doesn’t make much sense either since we knew about Ace’s visit to Wano for a pretty long time, that was something that was bound to be brought up.

Anyways, I think part of this is debatable. For example some people pointed out the difference between how characters perceive WB and who WB actually was. Because the perception is that he’d go after and kill whoever killed his crewmates but in actuality we’ve seen him make some exceptions like for Thatch for example. He doesn’t just jump in no matter what and he made an exception for Kaido. So I guess an argument could be made along those lines :kayneshrug:

Its not out of Whitebeard's character. He also didnt want Ace to go after Thatch's killer.
True, however once Ace actually left WB was ok with him going after BB:
 
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