Chapter Discussion ScumBeard 999: Debunking Whitebeard 999 Apologists
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I’m gonna wait for the official translation, however I think Oda could have handled it better. Removing WB and Ace completely from Wano doesn’t make much sense either since we knew about Ace’s visit to Wano for a pretty long time, that was something that was bound to be brought up.
Anyways, I think part of this is debatable. For example some people pointed out the difference between how characters perceive WB and who WB actually was. Because the perception is that he’d go after and kill whoever killed his crewmates but in actuality we’ve seen him make some exceptions like for Thatch for example. He doesn’t just jump in no matter what and he made an exception for Kaido. So I guess an argument could be made along those lines
True, however once Ace actually left WB was ok with him going after BB:
Anyways, I think part of this is debatable. For example some people pointed out the difference between how characters perceive WB and who WB actually was. Because the perception is that he’d go after and kill whoever killed his crewmates but in actuality we’ve seen him make some exceptions like for Thatch for example. He doesn’t just jump in no matter what and he made an exception for Kaido. So I guess an argument could be made along those lines
True, however once Ace actually left WB was ok with him going after BB:
This is also why Croc calls him out in Marineford for being weak. It was not only about his martial prowess but his softness in regards to his family.
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While people can come up with reasons (some of which are poor, some solid) for why WB decided not to go, one thing that cannot be denied is the fact that Oda wrote himself to a corner with all of this to begin with. This was the primary reason why people had an issue with this. And this goes back 982, where Marco says that he “didn’t know how bad things have gottten”
Yet in 999, he says this:
This is a blatant plot hole cover up attempt that doesn’t even need to spelled out. Oda could not have made them unaware of Wano because that wouldn’t make any sense but at the same time Oda somehow saw it fit for them to be aware to the point where they considered invading the place multiple times. This is the bigger issue imo, WB’s decision not to go is weird and somewhat arguable at best, however Marco going from not knowing how bad things were to being almost fully aware is even weirder than anything else in 999.
Could have been done better- in general I think Oda’s struggled with having everything happen twenty years ago instead of in the least year like we thought it had before time travel was brought into it- absolutely not the big deal that anyone is saying it is.
I cannot see how anyone can argue this “ruins” Whitebeard’s character when we already have him refusing to go after someone far less powerful who murdered one of his sons.
I also wouldn’t put much faith in a statement from Buggy, eight hundred chapters ago. He says at the very same time that nobody fought Roger and lived aside from Whitebeard. In other words, Buggy talks a lot of shit, it‘s kind of his thing. Or maybe it’s more fair to say that Whitebeard had made an image of himself that was a good deterrence. Either way what we see from Whitebeard is what’s important, not what we see from other characters who don’t know him well.
I cannot see how anyone can argue this “ruins” Whitebeard’s character when we already have him refusing to go after someone far less powerful who murdered one of his sons.
I also wouldn’t put much faith in a statement from Buggy, eight hundred chapters ago. He says at the very same time that nobody fought Roger and lived aside from Whitebeard. In other words, Buggy talks a lot of shit, it‘s kind of his thing. Or maybe it’s more fair to say that Whitebeard had made an image of himself that was a good deterrence. Either way what we see from Whitebeard is what’s important, not what we see from other characters who don’t know him well.
At Marineford? Or at Wano?
Marineford yes, they were all blatantly lying to protect the image of the untouchable Whitebeard Pirates, and to save face for Ace. That’s old ground
At Wano it was just a blatant mistake from Oda, because everything implies there that Marco didn’t have a clue that Oden had died.
Marineford yes, they were all blatantly lying to protect the image of the untouchable Whitebeard Pirates, and to save face for Ace. That’s old ground
At Wano it was just a blatant mistake from Oda, because everything implies there that Marco didn’t have a clue that Oden had died.
Reason 1 - the most important one: The story is tailored to the present day for the Strawhat crew.
That by itself stops Whitebeard from doing anything to Wano since the bad state has to be maintained until Strawhats do their magic.
Reason 2 - completely logical: Wano cannot be toppled by Whitebeard Pirates since not even WG can topple it.
And again, stars are aligning for the protagonists so they can topple is, somehow...
Reason 3 - WB acted within the character: The rumor is exaggerated to make people scared of Whitebeard Pirates.
Whitebeard has planned to do nothing about BB killing Thatch, he only acted as if he is doing something about it because Ace went after him on his own against Whitebeard's orders. Whitebeard pretended that it was him who sent Ace after Blackbeard in front of Navy...
That by itself stops Whitebeard from doing anything to Wano since the bad state has to be maintained until Strawhats do their magic.
Reason 2 - completely logical: Wano cannot be toppled by Whitebeard Pirates since not even WG can topple it.
And again, stars are aligning for the protagonists so they can topple is, somehow...
Reason 3 - WB acted within the character: The rumor is exaggerated to make people scared of Whitebeard Pirates.
Whitebeard has planned to do nothing about BB killing Thatch, he only acted as if he is doing something about it because Ace went after him on his own against Whitebeard's orders. Whitebeard pretended that it was him who sent Ace after Blackbeard in front of Navy...
I’m sorry my friend, but your “debunking” missed the goal posts worse than Scotty Norwood in Superbowl 25.
One Piece has baffling and idiotic story developments at times. Simply, this isn’t one of them.
Normally, little’s gained from debating particulars, when guiding universal rules are in conflict. Arriving at consensus, even partial, from conflicting axioms is impossible. I’d rather discuss rubric of analysis, before debating a particular character/event. Which is beyond the scope of this forum, and my energy. I declined participating in my friend’s Royal Rumble event for the same reason. If I address every issue I have with this, it’ll be unfair to him so I’ll try to keep it as short as possible. Hope he’s not miffed at me lol
You're spot on on #4 though. Whitebeard definitely cares for Oden, and in an ideal world things might be different.
One Piece has baffling and idiotic story developments at times. Simply, this isn’t one of them.
Normally, little’s gained from debating particulars, when guiding universal rules are in conflict. Arriving at consensus, even partial, from conflicting axioms is impossible. I’d rather discuss rubric of analysis, before debating a particular character/event. Which is beyond the scope of this forum, and my energy. I declined participating in my friend’s Royal Rumble event for the same reason. If I address every issue I have with this, it’ll be unfair to him so I’ll try to keep it as short as possible. Hope he’s not miffed at me lol
- The premise of your argument seems to confusingly oscillate from “A fictitious pirate should adhere to my moral code” to “Regardless of moral code, this character’s actions are internally contradictory” without rhyme or reason. Also the “MUHHH Prophecy” and "Dying Woman's Rambling" is bizarre. One Piece is a fantastical world. The Will of D is real. Whitebeard, who’s not a cynical One Piece reader, should follow Joy Boy’s absolute prophecy. His dream’s been accomplished. He had a family. One of said family was destined, in his errant belief, to become Joy Boy. That was worth dying for in his final days. As that was the only way Oden’s dream could become true as well. Oden refused Roger’s help for a reason. WB ended the old era to set the stage for Joy Boy’s arrival. A singular thematic thread stringed every scene in 999 togther. Whitebeard, among everyone else related to Wano, are waiting for Joy Boy. “Good” characters in One Piece do “stupid” things. “Luffy freed legendary villains from Impel Down who wreaked havoc” “Dumb Bellemere died and caused her daughters’ suffering. She could’ve just denied they were family “Sanji is so stupid, he’d let his crew die over kicking a woman” “Oden is so gullible believing Orochi” Yes they’re all stupid. Those are their beliefs and flaws and they’d die for them. They’re not morally virtuous characters, and we shouldn’t expect them to be. Oda said he’ll never have Luffy preach Justice as he’d be a hypocritical pirate. Now that’s the main character! Imagine WB!
- Other posters (Boggy, Van, Bounty, etc) here posted on difference between Thatch, Ace and Oden’s situations, exaggerated rumors, etc... Most of what they mentioned is bang on and better than I could put it. Anyone could just as easily say, years after Oden’s death why would he believe any Kozuki has been left unharmed? FI was his declared territory, Wano wasn't. Protecting your Yonko territory against weaklings, isn’t a white knight avenger war against a Yonko (Mind you, unlike MF, Joy Boy wasn't in danger). You bring up his scene with Squard as a show of inconsistency, then say avenging Oden is worth sacrificing his “fodder army”. If you’re asking for consistency based on Squard’s scene, you can’t ask for him to butcher his family in a "moral" war. Whitebeard doesn't see them as fodder, if that's what you're claiming. You claim inconsistency. It’s simply context.
You're spot on on #4 though. Whitebeard definitely cares for Oden, and in an ideal world things might be different.
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Its not out of Whitebeard's character. He also didnt want Ace to go after Thatch's killer.
Oden was not even a WB pirate when he went back to Wano. He refused to take help from his own crew, that is Roger's crew, "Rayleigh, Redtaro, Buggyjuro, I thank you. But this is something we of the Kozuki clan must solve on our own"
But lets all blame only Whitebeard for not taking revenge, smh
Oden was not even a WB pirate when he went back to Wano. He refused to take help from his own crew, that is Roger's crew, "Rayleigh, Redtaro, Buggyjuro, I thank you. But this is something we of the Kozuki clan must solve on our own"
But lets all blame only Whitebeard for not taking revenge, smh
WB and Izo explains that the seat of 2nd division commander has been retired for so long because they only found out about Oden's death ... meaning Oden was still considered as a WB pirate and they all expected for him to come back and go on adventures together like before
It's pretty obvious that the fact that WB refused to go after Kaido doesn't go in line with how Oda portrayed his character at the time of MF but he also didn't depict WB as this mad man who murders anyone who dares to touch his crewmates without thinking about the circumstances. So I think Oda handled it fairly well even though it wasn't done in the most optimal way.
Some people just want to bash on characters and pick on anything.
I don't think Ace knows anything besides whatever Tama told him and what he saw at Amigasa village and I doubt he got to know everything in detail even from them. There are a lot of things that Ace was dark on like SMILE experiments, Udon, Killing and slavery of Kozuki apologists, effects of Orochi's tyranny on the other parts of Wano et cetera.