I agree I would hate for Shiryu to be Zoro's endgame fight, Mihawk has been hyped the entire series, he has to be the one to fight Zoro for the world strongest swordsman title.
Also I don't see anything that Shanks is doing that would make him an enemy of Luffy, besides having some connection with the WG.
Luffy might fight him just to prove he's become a great pirate and then return the strawhat before departing for the final island where he fights Blackbeard who has killed Shanks on his way there.
Also I don't see anything that Shanks is doing that would make him an enemy of Luffy, besides having some connection with the WG.
Luffy might fight him just to prove he's become a great pirate and then return the strawhat before departing for the final island where he fights Blackbeard who has killed Shanks on his way there.
When it comes to who is more important to the main story-line it would be Shanks and Blackbeard, Kaido and Big Mom are only important during this Yonko Saga but after that they aren't going to be important anymore unless Big Mom somehow does get a third arc.
Big Mom is not the Buggy of the Yonko's, if that was the case then she would be a complete gag character but she isn't. Oda is trying to balance Big Mom as being both a serious character but also a wacky character, but imo he's not doing a really good job with it.
Queen is a good example of a character who has a good balance of being both serious and also wacky, also the main problem isn't Big Mom but it's Oda and his problems with writing female characters.
Also Big Mom isn't past her prime but at the same time I would say she isn't in her prime either, I think she's almost past her prime.
Big Mom is not the Buggy of the Yonko's, if that was the case then she would be a complete gag character but she isn't. Oda is trying to balance Big Mom as being both a serious character but also a wacky character, but imo he's not doing a really good job with it.
Queen is a good example of a character who has a good balance of being both serious and also wacky, also the main problem isn't Big Mom but it's Oda and his problems with writing female characters.
Also Big Mom isn't past her prime but at the same time I would say she isn't in her prime either, I think she's almost past her prime.
There's just a weird expectation being set that he needs to die at all from Blackbeard even after meeting Luffy lol. There are a lot of things going on with Shanks that makes it very clear to me he's way more complicated than being yet another death to pile on the Blackbeard hate for Luffy.
- His cleary undefined goals as a pirate. He has a hidden motive as pointed out by Oden, since he cried over something once Roger came back from Laugh Tale after asking him a question. Same motive is pointed out by the fact that he has no idea where Laugh Tale actually is (destroying the gatekeeper theory), plus the fact that he openly talks to genocidal Gorosei about pirates. Also, said "pirate" was kept vague on purpose, so I wouldn't assume it's Blackbeard at all
- The above already entirely points Shanks to being in the "grey" when it comes to being a major faction in this story. If said "pirate" was a threat, you would say that Whitebeard wouldn't go and have conversations with the Gorosei specifically about this. Why didn't Shanks go back to Sengoku, who clearly has his respect? Akainu? Why go to the 5 men who have actively hid a 100 years of history from the world and openly execute populations for knowing its secrets?
- Then there is the pure fact that Luffy wants to fight Shanks, and through all of Shanks' "wild" faces when Luffy is talked about, you can see he wants to do the same. This isnt some friendly Davy back fight forshadowing, this is literally two men willing to beat the shit out of each other for whatever reasons they expect to do so. Luffy thinks Shanks is aiming to become PK, but I think Shanks motive lies WAY deeper than that.
- There is something seriously big behind the mystery of his character. His origins, unclear motive as mentioned before, unwavering belief in Luffy to do something, all while still having a level of personal contradiction (talking to the Gorosei, killing pirates in cold blood, scarring the fuck out of Kid worse than he got it) that shows us that Shanks isn't "all good" as people probably initially thought for the first half of the story.
- Then you just get to the concept of fights and who is likely meant to be fought and when. Take for example Zoro's opponents. Maybe he fights King this arc. Maybe he fights Fuji. Maybe he fights the Monk Gorosei with Shodai. Do you expect any of them to be his final fights? Most importantly, do you expect Shiryu to be his final fight? Most people say no, because after 1000 chapters, we expect Mihawk to be right? Well, consider the fact that Mihawk has now lost his title and does not have autonomy anymore. Consider that the final war is coming and Mihawk probably will be allied with some group or faction. Consider that Mihawk pretty much only has a known association with Shanks. I think its extremely likely he allies with Shanks in the coming war, giving him a place to fight Zoro if Luffy and Shanks collide at the EoS. If you believe these things, it becomes easier to see why Shanks might also be the endgame antagonist.
- Finally, consider Oda's words about knowing the ending to his series since the beginning. Chapter 1 and its two previous versions (Romance Dawn v1 and V2; Chapter 1 is technically Version 3) all involve the Strawhat. Version 1 has Shanks. Version 2 has Luffys Grandfather giving him the hat (not Garp at the time), but this was stated about V2 when published in the compilation book "Wanted!":
"Luffy's grandfather exists simply to keep the readers from discovering Shanks; Oda intended to surprise the viewers with the final story"
Compare this to the fact that Blackbeard has had zero indication of being planned before the series beginning (plus the fact that he wasn't teased until like 140 chapters in, and just not shown until 240 chapters in) Shanks is far, FAR more important to the end than people realize. I would not doubt that he and the strawhat are actually central to the ending of the series and provide full loop in terms of narrative closure. There's actually a ton more here that I could talk about but these are pretty much some of the bigger points.
I entirely believe Blackbeard is not the final antagonist, but simply the penultimate one during the final conflict. Blackbeard, Im, Akainu, or Rocks, whilst all candidates for series ending conflicts with Luffy, I dont believe serve to actually end the series with them.
Shanks provides the emotional depth of the conflict to end the series on. Luffy's secondary goal beyond PK has always been to live up to Shanks' expectations, and I think learning Shanks' true motive (which may be entirely compelling btw) will make the fight between Luffy's role model and him a that much more emotional and worth it. Plus returning the hat or potentially Luffy even dying or even both dying, may provide way more emotional weight on the series ending then him fighting Blackbeard, considering Blackbeards goals have been known for 500+ chapters, nor has Luffy looked up to Blackbeard. Then you just have Zoro fighting Mihawk potentially at this time or Usopp getting full closure with his father.
I just think we are in for a wild ride tbh.
- His cleary undefined goals as a pirate. He has a hidden motive as pointed out by Oden, since he cried over something once Roger came back from Laugh Tale after asking him a question. Same motive is pointed out by the fact that he has no idea where Laugh Tale actually is (destroying the gatekeeper theory), plus the fact that he openly talks to genocidal Gorosei about pirates. Also, said "pirate" was kept vague on purpose, so I wouldn't assume it's Blackbeard at all
- The above already entirely points Shanks to being in the "grey" when it comes to being a major faction in this story. If said "pirate" was a threat, you would say that Whitebeard wouldn't go and have conversations with the Gorosei specifically about this. Why didn't Shanks go back to Sengoku, who clearly has his respect? Akainu? Why go to the 5 men who have actively hid a 100 years of history from the world and openly execute populations for knowing its secrets?
- Then there is the pure fact that Luffy wants to fight Shanks, and through all of Shanks' "wild" faces when Luffy is talked about, you can see he wants to do the same. This isnt some friendly Davy back fight forshadowing, this is literally two men willing to beat the shit out of each other for whatever reasons they expect to do so. Luffy thinks Shanks is aiming to become PK, but I think Shanks motive lies WAY deeper than that.
- There is something seriously big behind the mystery of his character. His origins, unclear motive as mentioned before, unwavering belief in Luffy to do something, all while still having a level of personal contradiction (talking to the Gorosei, killing pirates in cold blood, scarring the fuck out of Kid worse than he got it) that shows us that Shanks isn't "all good" as people probably initially thought for the first half of the story.
- Then you just get to the concept of fights and who is likely meant to be fought and when. Take for example Zoro's opponents. Maybe he fights King this arc. Maybe he fights Fuji. Maybe he fights the Monk Gorosei with Shodai. Do you expect any of them to be his final fights? Most importantly, do you expect Shiryu to be his final fight? Most people say no, because after 1000 chapters, we expect Mihawk to be right? Well, consider the fact that Mihawk has now lost his title and does not have autonomy anymore. Consider that the final war is coming and Mihawk probably will be allied with some group or faction. Consider that Mihawk pretty much only has a known association with Shanks. I think its extremely likely he allies with Shanks in the coming war, giving him a place to fight Zoro if Luffy and Shanks collide at the EoS. If you believe these things, it becomes easier to see why Shanks might also be the endgame antagonist.
- Finally, consider Oda's words about knowing the ending to his series since the beginning. Chapter 1 and its two previous versions (Romance Dawn v1 and V2; Chapter 1 is technically Version 3) all involve the Strawhat. Version 1 has Shanks. Version 2 has Luffys Grandfather giving him the hat (not Garp at the time), but this was stated about V2 when published in the compilation book "Wanted!":
"Luffy's grandfather exists simply to keep the readers from discovering Shanks; Oda intended to surprise the viewers with the final story"
Compare this to the fact that Blackbeard has had zero indication of being planned before the series beginning (plus the fact that he wasn't teased until like 140 chapters in, and just not shown until 240 chapters in) Shanks is far, FAR more important to the end than people realize. I would not doubt that he and the strawhat are actually central to the ending of the series and provide full loop in terms of narrative closure. There's actually a ton more here that I could talk about but these are pretty much some of the bigger points.
I entirely believe Blackbeard is not the final antagonist, but simply the penultimate one during the final conflict. Blackbeard, Im, Akainu, or Rocks, whilst all candidates for series ending conflicts with Luffy, I dont believe serve to actually end the series with them.
Shanks provides the emotional depth of the conflict to end the series on. Luffy's secondary goal beyond PK has always been to live up to Shanks' expectations, and I think learning Shanks' true motive (which may be entirely compelling btw) will make the fight between Luffy's role model and him a that much more emotional and worth it. Plus returning the hat or potentially Luffy even dying or even both dying, may provide way more emotional weight on the series ending then him fighting Blackbeard, considering Blackbeards goals have been known for 500+ chapters, nor has Luffy looked up to Blackbeard. Then you just have Zoro fighting Mihawk potentially at this time or Usopp getting full closure with his father.
I just think we are in for a wild ride tbh.
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I don't think Shanks makes sense as a final antagonist. It is possible he could serve as an obstacle along the Strawhats way but I don't see any relevance for the Red Hair pirates after Luffy becomes Pirate King.
At this point I think there are only a limited number of ways it could play out:
1) The most popular idea is that the RHP are defeated by the Blackbeard pirates offscreen. If Mihawk allies with the RHPs then that means he goes down to Shiryu too. Conflict between them was set up in Marineford and BB's words indicate an eventual conflict when they are actually ready.
I have some issues with this one though because I believe that Luffy & Shanks have to meet, so all the trolling about Shanks being offscreened aside I don't think it works for the story especially since it would also mean we either won't get to see the RHP in action or if we get to see a fight we would see too much of the BB pirates fighting before facing the Strawhats. It would also mean we won't get a lot of Mihawk if he goes down with the RHPs.
2) The Strawhats meet the RHP shortly after Wano and fight then. It could simply be a friendly bout or it could be a serious showdown where Shanks' secret intentions are revealed.
In this scenario we get to see the RHP pirates in action and resolution for things like Usopp & Yassop and potentially Zoro & Mihawk. It would also mean that the RHPs would be left in a weakened state after the Strawhats win, making it easier for the BB pirates to take them out.
This would mean that Luffy gets to meet Shanks which scenario #1 doesn't allow for. It could also end with Luffy returning the strawhat, BB defeating Shanks and showing up to Raftel with strawhat in hand to deepen the conflict or Shanks telling Luffy to keep the Strawhat but at which point his role in the story would be over, so BB pirates subsequently taking him out would make sense.
It would also allow us to see the RHP in full without revealing the BB pirates fighting secrets until they actually face the Strawhats. That would make the "offscreening" of the RHPs to make sense, giving a logical reason why they lost and after we've already seen what they can do while still keeping the BB Pirates a mystery for the Raftel showdown.
It would also make sense if the final Red Poneglyph was tied to the Red Hair pirates so 3 Yonkou besides the final one would be out of the picture before the battle for the Pirate King.
The major issue I have with this one is Zoro becoming WSS before facing Shiryu.
3) The Strawhats don't encounter the RHP until after Luffy becomes Pirate King and the BB pirates have likely been defeated. This one doesn't make much sense because there's no use for a Yonkou after someone is already Pirate King. There wouldn't be any bigger stakes for the Pirate King's crew to face a mere Yonkou crew. If Mihawk allied with them then it would also mean Luffy achieved his goal before Zoro which kills any hype for that.
4) The RHPs somehow take over the World Government and become the antagonists of the Final War. This has similar problems to the prior one. Unless some serious shenanigans along the lines of theories that Shanks is secretly a Celestial (something already done with Doflamingo) and the heir to the throne or such, it wouldn't make sense for him to be present in that conflict. There's no reason for the WG's forces to bow to pirates. There's no sense in the Strawhats' final battles being carbon copies of the one they would have already had to become the Pirate King crew. There's no reason for Mihawk to be a party to such a plan either. Shanks' prior actions wouldn't make sense in that context either.
5) The Strawhats face the RHPs after the final war with the WG. At this point there's simply no gravitas to it. Any conflict after the greatest war in the world would be empty and lackluster. It would mean that Zoro becomes the WSS as basically an afterthought and there's no point for a Yonkou to still be present after the Yonkou saga and resolution of all the major secrets of the story. This is the option that makes the least sense to me.
Regardless of what option it ends up being I believe several things have to occur in the narrative:
- Luffy & Shanks have to meet
- The RHP & BB pirates should have a showdown
- Zoro should become WSS before or at Raftel
- No Yonkou should remain after Luffy becomes Pirate King.
- The final antagonist must seat on the Empty Throne. The King of the World, whether the position is usurped or not must be the last to go down.
At this point I think there are only a limited number of ways it could play out:
1) The most popular idea is that the RHP are defeated by the Blackbeard pirates offscreen. If Mihawk allies with the RHPs then that means he goes down to Shiryu too. Conflict between them was set up in Marineford and BB's words indicate an eventual conflict when they are actually ready.
I have some issues with this one though because I believe that Luffy & Shanks have to meet, so all the trolling about Shanks being offscreened aside I don't think it works for the story especially since it would also mean we either won't get to see the RHP in action or if we get to see a fight we would see too much of the BB pirates fighting before facing the Strawhats. It would also mean we won't get a lot of Mihawk if he goes down with the RHPs.
2) The Strawhats meet the RHP shortly after Wano and fight then. It could simply be a friendly bout or it could be a serious showdown where Shanks' secret intentions are revealed.
In this scenario we get to see the RHP pirates in action and resolution for things like Usopp & Yassop and potentially Zoro & Mihawk. It would also mean that the RHPs would be left in a weakened state after the Strawhats win, making it easier for the BB pirates to take them out.
This would mean that Luffy gets to meet Shanks which scenario #1 doesn't allow for. It could also end with Luffy returning the strawhat, BB defeating Shanks and showing up to Raftel with strawhat in hand to deepen the conflict or Shanks telling Luffy to keep the Strawhat but at which point his role in the story would be over, so BB pirates subsequently taking him out would make sense.
It would also allow us to see the RHP in full without revealing the BB pirates fighting secrets until they actually face the Strawhats. That would make the "offscreening" of the RHPs to make sense, giving a logical reason why they lost and after we've already seen what they can do while still keeping the BB Pirates a mystery for the Raftel showdown.
It would also make sense if the final Red Poneglyph was tied to the Red Hair pirates so 3 Yonkou besides the final one would be out of the picture before the battle for the Pirate King.
The major issue I have with this one is Zoro becoming WSS before facing Shiryu.
3) The Strawhats don't encounter the RHP until after Luffy becomes Pirate King and the BB pirates have likely been defeated. This one doesn't make much sense because there's no use for a Yonkou after someone is already Pirate King. There wouldn't be any bigger stakes for the Pirate King's crew to face a mere Yonkou crew. If Mihawk allied with them then it would also mean Luffy achieved his goal before Zoro which kills any hype for that.
4) The RHPs somehow take over the World Government and become the antagonists of the Final War. This has similar problems to the prior one. Unless some serious shenanigans along the lines of theories that Shanks is secretly a Celestial (something already done with Doflamingo) and the heir to the throne or such, it wouldn't make sense for him to be present in that conflict. There's no reason for the WG's forces to bow to pirates. There's no sense in the Strawhats' final battles being carbon copies of the one they would have already had to become the Pirate King crew. There's no reason for Mihawk to be a party to such a plan either. Shanks' prior actions wouldn't make sense in that context either.
5) The Strawhats face the RHPs after the final war with the WG. At this point there's simply no gravitas to it. Any conflict after the greatest war in the world would be empty and lackluster. It would mean that Zoro becomes the WSS as basically an afterthought and there's no point for a Yonkou to still be present after the Yonkou saga and resolution of all the major secrets of the story. This is the option that makes the least sense to me.
Regardless of what option it ends up being I believe several things have to occur in the narrative:
- Luffy & Shanks have to meet
- The RHP & BB pirates should have a showdown
- Zoro should become WSS before or at Raftel
- No Yonkou should remain after Luffy becomes Pirate King.
- The final antagonist must seat on the Empty Throne. The King of the World, whether the position is usurped or not must be the last to go down.
Pretty much your last point (number 5) is actually what I think is happening. The "lack" of gravitas is personal opinion. I've always stated that Blackbeard is the "epic" final villain, while Shanks is the more personal final antagonist. Theres a huge difference and one is way more emotional than the other because the story has truly always been centered on Luffy and Shanks. There is a reason Shanks is always on the opening character pages each volume. Oda wants to remind the reader that he's just as important as the characters that exist on those pages at any one point.
I highly doubt he's going anywhere until literally the last volume of the series because of this
The problem with your opinion on this is we still have no idea what Shanks is aiming for. Who knows what his true goals are. They could even be larger than the final war. They could play a huge part in it too. Potentially he could be the conclusion of it. I also entirely believe Luffy becomes PK before then, not after.
Edit: and if you want to get really deep into this, I truly believe Shanks is the true leader of the Underworld, especially due to his direct Yakuza references and how unlikely it is that the Undeworld is not controlled by someone more powerful than the 6 Emperors from WCI. I would NOT be surprised if this is how he's able to sneak into Mariejois and have a connection to them as well. He also just makes the most sense considering how unclear his "influential" network is defined unlike the rest of the Yonko. The rest have allied pirates, groups, major territories and armies, Shanks literally only seems to have his crew. But Yonko have been defined to essentially be "massive" Yakuza like families with spheres of influence somewhere. We know the WG, Big Mom and Kaido use the Underworld, but don't truly control it. It makes sense if it was him.
Akagami (Shanks' epithet) doesn't just have to mean "Red Haired", you can also substitute the Kanji and Akagami can also mean "Dirty God". Oda being the pun centric man he is, I totally believe there is WAY more going on here than people think.
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That idea is interesting but I don't think it makes sense in light of the story. Unless we get into the realm of the truly ridiculous I don't see how any conflict could surpass overthrowing the WG that has ruled for 800 years. That is also tied to the very identity of the One Piece itself, all the secrets of the Poneglyphs and a global conflict.
Shanks & the Red Hair pirates simply don't live up to such a thing. Underworld connections or whatever don't make up for that or come anywhere close to the power of the WG. That is especially considering one of the major underworld figures is already tied to CP0 and you have the likes of Morgans & co.
I do believe that Shanks' intentions aren't straight forward, but I also believe that whatever it is will be revealed and resolved before Luffy becomes the PK or the Yonkou saga truly won't end. Every other one of the original Yonkou were tied to a Red Poneglyph in some way and I don't think Shanks will be an exception. Whether it's Elbaf, Sphinx Island or some other unknown location I believe it will be tied to the RHPs and be another step in concluding the Yonkou saga.
Oda's words kind of hint at that too since it is likely Shanks is already making his move. He's going to be relevant next and it would be far too long to wait to the end of the story for that.
I simply don't see it being option 5 without something ridiculous like Shanks wanting to become the God of the world when the conflict with the King of the World is already over. There's nowhere else to go from being King of the World that doesn't end up in something so outlandish, and neither do I see any such thing being of interest to Luffy whose destiny lies with the One Piece.
Shanks & the Red Hair pirates simply don't live up to such a thing. Underworld connections or whatever don't make up for that or come anywhere close to the power of the WG. That is especially considering one of the major underworld figures is already tied to CP0 and you have the likes of Morgans & co.
I do believe that Shanks' intentions aren't straight forward, but I also believe that whatever it is will be revealed and resolved before Luffy becomes the PK or the Yonkou saga truly won't end. Every other one of the original Yonkou were tied to a Red Poneglyph in some way and I don't think Shanks will be an exception. Whether it's Elbaf, Sphinx Island or some other unknown location I believe it will be tied to the RHPs and be another step in concluding the Yonkou saga.
Oda's words kind of hint at that too since it is likely Shanks is already making his move. He's going to be relevant next and it would be far too long to wait to the end of the story for that.
I simply don't see it being option 5 without something ridiculous like Shanks wanting to become the God of the world when the conflict with the King of the World is already over. There's nowhere else to go from being King of the World that doesn't end up in something so outlandish, and neither do I see any such thing being of interest to Luffy whose destiny lies with the One Piece.
Can't sleep well anymore after reading your thoughts. I hate it because i know, even if it's only a feeling, that there's something strange and unpredictable is going to occur during the Shanks-BB plot, where Oda intends to change how Shanks' character is perceived.
I read your old thread on Shanks' motivations before, just want to let you know that i'm one of those who agreed with it so that you remember when the time comes and it turns into reality, that's coming from someone who loathed Shanks on sight.
I read your old thread on Shanks' motivations before, just want to let you know that i'm one of those who agreed with it so that you remember when the time comes and it turns into reality, that's coming from someone who loathed Shanks on sight.
Lol don't sweat it, I can very likely also be wrong, it's largely dependent on one's interpretations anyway at this time.
What I am confident on 100% and what I think at this point it's pretty much guaranteed that Shanks is at least not exactly what people expect him to be (in terms of what he's been to Luffy for 1000 chapters). There is something going on considering the purposeful mystery behind what he does. Those few chapters in the early 900's definitely were central to that idea. However the level of "change" to his character is going to be the ultimate question. Is the perceived Gorosei meeting a red herring for something else? Is he straight up maniacal and playing Luffy? Clearly 2 things I don't believe in at all (you know my views) but I'm always open to all possibilities.
Regardless, whether Vegapunk/Elbaf or anything else is next, we know the Blackbeard/Shanks stuff is coming soon since they will (and should) be the only 2 relevant Yonko left anyway. I do 100% expect to know those motivations soon. If Oda says he's teasing that he's at least making his move this year, it may provide more hints/context/resolution on who we should believe he actually is as a person before the final war, not that I expect Shanks' plot to at all be resolved before then
What I am confident on 100% and what I think at this point it's pretty much guaranteed that Shanks is at least not exactly what people expect him to be (in terms of what he's been to Luffy for 1000 chapters). There is something going on considering the purposeful mystery behind what he does. Those few chapters in the early 900's definitely were central to that idea. However the level of "change" to his character is going to be the ultimate question. Is the perceived Gorosei meeting a red herring for something else? Is he straight up maniacal and playing Luffy? Clearly 2 things I don't believe in at all (you know my views) but I'm always open to all possibilities.
Regardless, whether Vegapunk/Elbaf or anything else is next, we know the Blackbeard/Shanks stuff is coming soon since they will (and should) be the only 2 relevant Yonko left anyway. I do 100% expect to know those motivations soon. If Oda says he's teasing that he's at least making his move this year, it may provide more hints/context/resolution on who we should believe he actually is as a person before the final war, not that I expect Shanks' plot to at all be resolved before then
You think they can both coexist as WSS? I have some trouble with that, but at the same time this is technically not impossible even if we consider the title like a gospel, since perhaps the other is also WSS but wasn't introduced as such (I find it abysmal odds wise however) unless WSS wasn't as relevant as preemptivated and I also doubt about this too for the reason not even WSC features in the databooks, but hey WSS does, it may be special, likely.