Powers & Abilities Sword skill (without haki) is a myth: Haki makes a master swordsman
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So let me ask you. Since skill doesn't change. If Zoro and Mihawk fought right now, with no haki and Zoro using his preskip moves, , then by your logic, Mihawk should still be able to defeat him with a pin knife, right? That's basically what you are saying, because Zoro's "skill" is now only better, because of haki.
That's absurd to think. There is no way Mihawk negs current Zoro with a pin knife if they fought exactly with the same movesets of Baratie.
And, no, Zoro can't defeat Pica without haki, because haki amplifies the power of his attacks. That has nothing to do with his level of skill.
That's absurd to think. There is no way Mihawk negs current Zoro with a pin knife if they fought exactly with the same movesets of Baratie.
And, no, Zoro can't defeat Pica without haki, because haki amplifies the power of his attacks. That has nothing to do with his level of skill.
"Skill" is far too broad of a term, that's the problem here. It's important to breakdown what is included in skill.
Reaction speed, movement speed and attack speed should all be included in "sword skill" as these exist outside of Haki (for the most part). Defense should also be included as it relates to one's ability to parry attacks. Offense is largely Haki-based.
If this is the case, then if current Zoro had his East Blue 'skill' then Toy Knife Mihawk would still bodybag him because Zoro wouldn't be able to land a hit on Mihawk in a million years. He'd be far too slow.
However, I believe Haki is absolutely included in skill. Haki can be trained - that makes it a skill that can be improved. The stronger fighter is not necessarily the more skilled fighter; see boxing - AJ is stronger but Usyk is more skilled so beat him twice.
However, the stronger fighter and the more skilled fighter is undeniably the superior fighter. Mihawk's title tells us that he is the strongest, and now we know that he is also more skilled. If Mihawk and Shanks were to fight, Mihawk would win. It's as simple as that really.
Reaction speed, movement speed and attack speed should all be included in "sword skill" as these exist outside of Haki (for the most part). Defense should also be included as it relates to one's ability to parry attacks. Offense is largely Haki-based.
If this is the case, then if current Zoro had his East Blue 'skill' then Toy Knife Mihawk would still bodybag him because Zoro wouldn't be able to land a hit on Mihawk in a million years. He'd be far too slow.
However, I believe Haki is absolutely included in skill. Haki can be trained - that makes it a skill that can be improved. The stronger fighter is not necessarily the more skilled fighter; see boxing - AJ is stronger but Usyk is more skilled so beat him twice.
However, the stronger fighter and the more skilled fighter is undeniably the superior fighter. Mihawk's title tells us that he is the strongest, and now we know that he is also more skilled. If Mihawk and Shanks were to fight, Mihawk would win. It's as simple as that really.
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I agree. I even put in my original post that to be the Strongest Swordsman you need both high level skill and haki. This guy is trying to tell me the only thing that has changed with Zoro from preskip to post skip, is that he got Haki, and that is him having better skills now. That's why I brought up Pin knife Mihawk vs Zoro, to show him that, that is not haki related, and there is no way current Zoro gets trashed by Mihawk like on Baratie, even without haki.
Oh yeah 100%, current Zoro without Haki performs better than East Blue Zoro with Haki
Oda's not good at highlighting the intricacies of a swordstyle but Zoro has vastly improved his technique for sure. He's had Sanzen Sekai since Baratie, but every time he got a new sword he'd go on and on about how he needs to improve with the sword, become a better swordsman etc... So there's certainly an element of technique involved beyond 'more Haki more strong'
Oda's not good at highlighting the intricacies of a swordstyle but Zoro has vastly improved his technique for sure. He's had Sanzen Sekai since Baratie, but every time he got a new sword he'd go on and on about how he needs to improve with the sword, become a better swordsman etc... So there's certainly an element of technique involved beyond 'more Haki more strong'
But these sword-specific skills are make or break for swordsman though.
The whole reason Mayweather is one of the greatest boxers in history is because of his defense and reactions. They form a huge part of his overall boxing skills. So I don't think you can separate 'sword-specific skills' from generic skills as they're all interlinked
Mihawk having greater sword skills means that he's overall the more skilled fighter. I'm agreed with you, people are just going wild with these semantics to cope with the likelihood of Mihawk simply being the stronger fighter
The whole reason Mayweather is one of the greatest boxers in history is because of his defense and reactions. They form a huge part of his overall boxing skills. So I don't think you can separate 'sword-specific skills' from generic skills as they're all interlinked
Mihawk having greater sword skills means that he's overall the more skilled fighter. I'm agreed with you, people are just going wild with these semantics to cope with the likelihood of Mihawk simply being the stronger fighter
I'll be 100% honest and some people may find this take absurd but yes I think Mihawk can defeat zoro even with a butter knife if both dont use Haki (he won't negg but still win) simply because that their strength difference is still that huge.
As you said in one of your previous post, Mihawk should be able to do a flying slash hundred times bigger than zoro's flying slash (even without haki) but this is not due to skill. Its just that Mihawk is that much stronger than him even now.
Even if you disagree with my take, your argument is a bit flawed. Zoro has obviously grown since pre-ts but not in some traditional sense of skill, he has grown immensely strong physically and is right now developing his Haki to peak levels.
Think back to pre-ts, zoro defeated hachi(6 sword style) ,kaku(4 sword style) with his santoryu which perfectly depicted his skill. But he still fell short to Kuma and Kizaru even with all his skills and that is exactly why he spent TS training haki and getting even stronger physically. All his skill is absolutely useless without those 2 other factors.
And this is my main reasoning that Strength and Haki are the 2 most important factors for victory in a sword fight or generally any fight in One Piece. Skill is minor factor to determine victory in a fight. One piece entire premise is that the person with more will power is the victor and what does will power translate to in one piece? The answer is Haki.
I'll present you a hypothetical situation to prove my point.
Lets equal both zoro and mihawk's skill and both aren't allowed to use haki. Both are allowed their primary weapons. Who do you think wins?
As you said in one of your previous post, Mihawk should be able to do a flying slash hundred times bigger than zoro's flying slash (even without haki) but this is not due to skill. Its just that Mihawk is that much stronger than him even now.
Even if you disagree with my take, your argument is a bit flawed. Zoro has obviously grown since pre-ts but not in some traditional sense of skill, he has grown immensely strong physically and is right now developing his Haki to peak levels.
Think back to pre-ts, zoro defeated hachi(6 sword style) ,kaku(4 sword style) with his santoryu which perfectly depicted his skill. But he still fell short to Kuma and Kizaru even with all his skills and that is exactly why he spent TS training haki and getting even stronger physically. All his skill is absolutely useless without those 2 other factors.
And this is my main reasoning that Strength and Haki are the 2 most important factors for victory in a sword fight or generally any fight in One Piece. Skill is minor factor to determine victory in a fight. One piece entire premise is that the person with more will power is the victor and what does will power translate to in one piece? The answer is Haki.
I'll present you a hypothetical situation to prove my point.
Lets equal both zoro and mihawk's skill and both aren't allowed to use haki. Both are allowed their primary weapons. Who do you think wins?
Haki does make a master swordman. Without haki, a swordsman will simply be ordinary.
By ordinary swordsman, this would mean a swordsman who can't cut metal...eg Zoro pre Alabasta climax.
Sword skill = swordsmanship. Without sword skill/swordsmanship, a character cannot be termed a swordsman.
To have great swordsmanship, you must have great haki. Both are intertwined because having haki = being able to cut metal = being more than an ordinary swordsman. As such, the stronger a swordsman's haki gets, the stronger the swordsmanship will be.
By ordinary swordsman, this would mean a swordsman who can't cut metal...eg Zoro pre Alabasta climax.
Sword skill = swordsmanship. Without sword skill/swordsmanship, a character cannot be termed a swordsman.
To have great swordsmanship, you must have great haki. Both are intertwined because having haki = being able to cut metal = being more than an ordinary swordsman. As such, the stronger a swordsman's haki gets, the stronger the swordsmanship will be.
I disagree personally. I think he's telling us that Mihawk is the more skilled swordsman which encompasses the sum total of all of the generic skills I mentioned earlier. It also includes the techniques you mentioned; overall, Oda is telling us that Mihawk is the more technically gifted fighter.
It's like if I said that in boxing skills, Mayweather is superior to AJ then I'd be absolutely correct. That doesn't mean Mayweather is the stronger boxer, however. Oda chose to highlight Mihawk's sword skills because he doesn't want to say Mihawk is outright stronger than Shanks. Shanks could still be stronger than Mihawk overall due to possessing stronger ACoC or being physically superior, i.e - hitting harder. Skill =/= strength.
However, we also know that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks due to his title so overall, Mihawk is the superior fighter hype/portrayal-wise. Reiterating Mihawk's title as the strongest as well as placing Mihawk above Shanks in a direct skill comparison all but nipped the debate in the bud.
It's like if I said that in boxing skills, Mayweather is superior to AJ then I'd be absolutely correct. That doesn't mean Mayweather is the stronger boxer, however. Oda chose to highlight Mihawk's sword skills because he doesn't want to say Mihawk is outright stronger than Shanks. Shanks could still be stronger than Mihawk overall due to possessing stronger ACoC or being physically superior, i.e - hitting harder. Skill =/= strength.
However, we also know that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks due to his title so overall, Mihawk is the superior fighter hype/portrayal-wise. Reiterating Mihawk's title as the strongest as well as placing Mihawk above Shanks in a direct skill comparison all but nipped the debate in the bud.
I disagree.
Sword skill is swordsmanship.
When Oda states that Mihawk has even greater sword skill than Shanks, it means he has better swordsmanship. And since being a swordsman = using swordsmanship, then it follows logically that the statement means Mihawk is a better swordsman than Shanks.
Skill with the sword cannot be separated from other stats like haki and strength.
To support this, the statement continues with "As the strongest swordsman in the world..."
Sword skill is swordsmanship.
When Oda states that Mihawk has even greater sword skill than Shanks, it means he has better swordsmanship. And since being a swordsman = using swordsmanship, then it follows logically that the statement means Mihawk is a better swordsman than Shanks.
Skill with the sword cannot be separated from other stats like haki and strength.
To support this, the statement continues with "As the strongest swordsman in the world..."
Being a boxer means boxing. To say Mayweather is a more skilled boxer than AJ is absolutely correct. In this case, boxing skills have been separated from overall strength. That's how I see this whole sword skills vs strength debate.
I think Haki should be included in sword skills as well, at least the Haki that can be trained. CoC can't be trained, so Mihawk could be a more skilled swordsman and be weaker overall due to Shanks hitting much harder thanks to being physically stronger or possessing a level of ACoC we haven't seen for example.
Obviously this isn't the case, as Mihawk has been reiterated as the strongest swordsman also. So all of his bases are covered.
Simply put - skill refers to being technically gifted. It doesn't paint the whole picture in regards to overall strength. I'm sure there are thousands of kids more technically gifted than Shaquille O'Neal - but they ain't 7'1. Overall strength includes genetics and attributes that can't be trained.
I think Haki should be included in sword skills as well, at least the Haki that can be trained. CoC can't be trained, so Mihawk could be a more skilled swordsman and be weaker overall due to Shanks hitting much harder thanks to being physically stronger or possessing a level of ACoC we haven't seen for example.
Obviously this isn't the case, as Mihawk has been reiterated as the strongest swordsman also. So all of his bases are covered.
Simply put - skill refers to being technically gifted. It doesn't paint the whole picture in regards to overall strength. I'm sure there are thousands of kids more technically gifted than Shaquille O'Neal - but they ain't 7'1. Overall strength includes genetics and attributes that can't be trained.
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When we say boxing skill, the first things we consider are (I found these just by a quick google search: "boxing skills" lmao) boxer's stance, the jab, the cross, the hook, and the uppercut punches, etc. By skill, we are talking more about techniques than basics like speed, stamina, etc, IMO.
Irl the sword skills means different types of cutting skills, yoko geri, kesi giri, overhead cut, etc. These are very basic in One Piece standard and even fodders in One Piece can do such things. In One Piece verse, I would expect some outrageous shits like flying slash, which are severely lacking. Thats why I wrote this part =>
Its like the difference between slam dunk and kuroko no basket. Slam dunk is realistic, so an elite shooter like Mitsui can make 3 point shots. Making 3 point shots in kuroko will probably not counted even a skill, it will be counted as a basic. In KNB, we have skills like emperor eye, misdirection, invisible pass, etc.
Irl the sword skills means different types of cutting skills, yoko geri, kesi giri, overhead cut, etc. These are very basic in One Piece standard and even fodders in One Piece can do such things. In One Piece verse, I would expect some outrageous shits like flying slash, which are severely lacking. Thats why I wrote this part =>
Its like the difference between slam dunk and kuroko no basket. Slam dunk is realistic, so an elite shooter like Mitsui can make 3 point shots. Making 3 point shots in kuroko will probably not counted even a skill, it will be counted as a basic. In KNB, we have skills like emperor eye, misdirection, invisible pass, etc.
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The boxing analogy does not work because boxing has rules. Swordsman fights do not.
As such saying Mayweather is more skilled boxer, which would mean he is a better boxer would still be regarded as such within the rules of boxing. We can say Mayweather is a stronger boxer as well from the above because the "strength" statement there is in relation to a boxing match/boxing rules.
The above is different from swordsmanship because it is not a match like boxing is, with rules, points, breaks, referees, judges etc.
For the COC, the "can't be trained" statement should be analyzed within the context. The very fact that it grows as individual grows shows it can be trained. Even then, the applications of it, i.e adcoc, is something that requires training.
When it comes to swordsmanship at least in the manga, there is no separation between skill and strength.
As such saying Mayweather is more skilled boxer, which would mean he is a better boxer would still be regarded as such within the rules of boxing. We can say Mayweather is a stronger boxer as well from the above because the "strength" statement there is in relation to a boxing match/boxing rules.
The above is different from swordsmanship because it is not a match like boxing is, with rules, points, breaks, referees, judges etc.
For the COC, the "can't be trained" statement should be analyzed within the context. The very fact that it grows as individual grows shows it can be trained. Even then, the applications of it, i.e adcoc, is something that requires training.
When it comes to swordsmanship at least in the manga, there is no separation between skill and strength.