Controversial The defenitive thread about swordsmanship skills and titles.

[Rekien]

Context matters dude. This is worse than when people read "he blocked the world's greatest slash" As mihawk's ultimate attack when in reality it meant "he blocked the [slash of] the world's greatest".

Yall are always trying to analyze every little bit of dialogue and multiple diferent translations over every single little thing the character say even some huffs and puffs saying the character is tired to the point he is out of breath, soo i am doing the same.

Sanjino aknowledges Mihawk as the worlds strongest man and you cant prove otherwise, live with it.
:cheers:

 

[DiscoZoro20]

Yall are always trying to analyze every little bit of dialogue and multiple diferent translations over every single little thing the character say even some huffs and puffs saying the character is tired to the point he is out of breath, soo i am doing the same.

Sanjino aknowledges Mihawk as the worlds strongest man and you cant prove otherwise, live with it.
:cheers:

Well you can pretend that Sanji would make an uneducated false claim over the logical contextual answer but that doesn't help you. Wrong is wrong no matter what you want to do.

 

[Guiding_Thunder]

The issue here is that swordmanship and haki are being considered as the same thing, when in truth they are not.

Swordsmen use armament haki to cut that which they want to cut, observation haki to sense their opponents better and conquers haki to augment the power behind their attacks.

But haki goes beyond what is mentioned above, for example:
1. In chapter 1055, Shanks sent streams of conquerors haki across a large distance to affect Greenbull specifically, causing him to scream in pain and de-transfrom from his King Baum form. Furthermore he was somehow able to communicate with him.
2. In film Red it is said that Shanks can cancel his opponents' observation haki, which is a big deal considering how his opponents will not be able to forsee his attacks coming.
3. Luffy was able to communicate with Momo using telepathy, similar to what Shanks did with Greenbull.
4. The internal destruction ryou that so far only Luffy and Rayleigh have been shown to use.
5. The suspicious storm that wiped all of Shiki's fleet in his battle with Roger.

None of the above has anything to do with swordsmanship. As such to say Shanks can't do anything with haki outside of swordsmanship, is honestly ignoring elements of the story to fit specific views (which in this case is the argument that Shanks is only limited to swordsmanship).

In Wano, Oda has been laying breadcrumbs of new aspects of haki to be explored later on particularly with Luffy, and I get the feeling many of the Zoro stans will be screaming asspull when it happens.

 

[Shanal]

The issue here is that swordmanship and haki are being considered as the same thing, when in truth they are not.

Swordsmen use armament haki to cut that which they want to cut, observation haki to sense their opponents better and conquers haki to augment the power behind their attacks.

But haki goes beyond what is mentioned above, for example:
1. In chapter 1055, Shanks sent streams of conquerors haki across a large distance to affect Greenbull specifically, causing him to scream in pain and de-transfrom from his King Baum form. Furthermore he was somehow able to communicate with him.
2. In film Red it is said that Shanks can cancel his opponents' observation haki, which is a big deal considering how his opponents will not be able to forsee his attacks coming.
3. Luffy was able to communicate with Momo using telepathy, similar to what Shanks did with Greenbull.
4. The internal destruction ryou that so far only Luffy and Rayleigh have been shown to use.
5. The suspicious storm that wiped all of Shiki's fleet in his battle with Roger.

None of the above has anything to do with swordsmanship. As such to say Shanks can't do anything with haki outside of swordsmanship, is honestly ignoring elements of the story to fit specific views (which in this case is the argument that Shanks is only limited to swordsmanship).

In Wano, Oda has been laying breadcrumbs of new aspects of haki to be explored later on particularly with Luffy, and I get the feeling many of the Zoro stans will be screaming asspull when it happens.

Literally none of the 5 examples you listed have anything to do with actual combat style or direct combat in itself.

Of course, unless you literally think GB was actually in pain and de-transformed due to sheer haki even though nothing implied so and it was just your interpretation of him being shook lol.

Either way, doesn't really matter ultimately. World's Strongest Swordsman is not a title separate from WSM or WSC. It's not a title of who wins in whatever skills or in whatever ways. It's a title for a swordsman who can defeat any other swordsman and not lose to them no matter what.

The arbitrary rules fans come up with to satisfy agenda are never once mentioned or implied in the history of Manga lol.

 

[Gelo]

I also found this that was in another databook

 

[Rootbeer]

l'm willing to give one thing to Zoro though.. Even if it's been confirmed in the last chapter that he's now a Sword Master it might not be an accurate assessment from the Marines since they are not aware of his new KoH mode power or that he unlocked CoC..

So what i'm saying is Zoro could already be on the level of a Sword Grandmaster, Daikengou..

 

[Guiding_Thunder]

Literally none of the 5 examples you listed have anything to do with actual combat style or direct combat in itself.

But it does, if for example Luffy couldn't use Future sight Against Kaido, he would have lost. You can't run away from this fact.

Of course, unless you literally think GB was actually in pain and de-transformed due to sheer haki even though nothing implied so and it was just your interpretation of him being shook lol.

But it was implied to be the case, do you think GB would have screamed if the CoC had no effect on him ??, he obviously screamed because he felt pain. If he suddenly just sensed the CoC he would have just turned around wondering who it was, but that's not what happened.

Either way, doesn't really matter ultimately. World's Strongest Swordsman is not a title separate from WSM or WSC. It's not a title of who wins in whatever skills or in whatever ways. It's a title for a swordsman who can defeat any other swordsman and not lose to them no matter what.

But this narrative was proven to be incorrect in the recent chapter, because it says: Mihawk has greater sword skills than Shanks. So according to Oda, Mihawk's title is referring to only swordsmanship or sword skill, not overall strength.

The WSM title is a vague title since Whitebeard received it before he was even the strongest in the seas, Roger was still around when he got it, also its heavily implied he got it because he had the power to destroy the world.

The arbitrary rules fans come up with to satisfy agenda are never once mentioned or implied in the history of Manga lol.

This is just Zoro stating that he must never lose in a sword duel against a swordsman as per his dream of being the WSS. You are the one distorting the recent chapter's clear and precise message: swordsmanship and sword skills are what makes the WSS. Which is why it's accepted that Roger was stronger than Mihawk, despite Mihawk being the greater swordsman.

 

[ConquistadoR]

But it does, if for example Luffy couldn't use Future sight Against Kaido, he would have lost. You can't run away from this fact.

And why does that come outside of Swordsmanship?
Shanks uses his CoC to make sure his opponents, if they can see the future i,e. , don't have an undue advantage against him in duels.
And didn't the same Film Red say that Shanks had that ability & was known as Observation Killer back when he was duelling Mihawk?

But it was implied to be the case, do you think GB would have screamed if the CoC had no effect on him ??, he obviously screamed because he felt pain. If he suddenly just sensed the CoC he would have just turned around wondering who it was, but that's not what happened.

Didn't Momo feel the same pain when Luffy was communicating with him telepathically?

But this narrative was proven to be incorrect in the recent chapter, because it says: Mihawk has greater sword skills than Shanks. So according to Oda, Mihawk's title is referring to only swordsmanship or sword skill, not overall strength.

Lmao no.
Brannew says Mihawk has better Sword Skills than Shanks in a separate sentence & then goes on to say that he is the Strongest Swordsman in the World in another sentence.
Oda nor the manga has NEVER said that Mihawk's title refers to Swordsmanship/Sword Skill alone & not overall strength.
Besides, ALL of Zoro's improvement in the post TS has been in Haki when going by your logic, it should be in Sword Skill.

You are the one distorting the recent chapter's clear and precise message: swordsmanship and sword skills are what makes the WSS.

Such statements were never said in the manga lol.

 

[Guiding_Thunder]

And why does that come outside of Swordsmanship?
Shanks uses his CoC to make sure his opponents, if they can see the future i,e. , don't have an undue advantage against him in duels.
And didn't the same Film Red say that Shanks had that ability & was known as Observation Killer back when he was duelling Mihawk?

It's not part of swordsmanship because you don't need a sword to do it, anyone with insane CoC mastery can do it. I haven't watched the film so I'm not sure when he was said to be capable of this.

Didn't Momo feel the same pain when Luffy was communicating with him telepathically?

Nope, Momo was shocked as he was hearing voices in his head, it's similar to how it was when he first started conversing with Zunisha.

Lmao no.
Brannew says Mihawk has better Sword Skills than Shanks in a separate sentence & then goes on to say that he is the Strongest Swordsman in the World in another sentence.
Oda nor the manga has NEVER said that Mihawk's title refers to Swordsmanship/Sword Skill alone & not overall strength.
Besides, ALL of Zoro's improvement in the post TS has been in Haki when going by your logic, it should be in Sword Skill.

If that was the case, why even mention sword skills relative to shanks. That was intentional, Oda could've just said a swordsman even stronger than Shanks, but he specifically pointed at sword skills. The mention of skills is an indication of what's required to be WSS.

The concept of haki was mentioned early in Pre- TS ( breathe of all things) where Zoro showcased something he never did again Pre- TS until Post -TS. Even in Wano swordsmen are taught they need Ryou to be swordsmen. So we have always known that haki played a part in swordsmanship.

The issue here is that there are haki aspects outside of swordsmanship, which is why Luffy is a better haki user than Zoro despite not being a swordsman.

Such statements were never said in the manga lol.

Brannew says otherwise

 

[ConquistadoR]

It's not part of swordsmanship because you don't need a sword to do it, anyone with insane CoC mastery can do it.

Same goes for CoO, CoA & CoC and in fact pretty much every haki form... does that change the fact that all these hakis are being used to enhance one's swordsmanship?
Like, Luffy was a df user/brawler both before & after he learnt Haki; Zoro was a swordsman both before & after he learnt Haki; Sanji was a kick-based martial artist both before & after he learnt haki and so on & so forth.
The whole point is that Haki, on it's own, is not a fighting style - it's a power which enhances other fighting styles (what already exists) & that's exactly what FS or CoO-killing CoC or pretty much any haki form for that matter, does.

I haven't watched the film so I'm not sure when he was said to be capable of this.

According to the film, he was known for it back when he was duelling Mihawk itself, so your entire argument of counting this outside of swordsmanship is moot.

Nope, Momo was shocked as he was hearing voices in his head, it's similar to how it was when he first started conversing with Zunisha.

Is Momo in shock here or in pain? Panels from ch. 1014.

Spoiler

If that was the case, why even mention sword skills relative to shanks. That was intentional, Oda could've just said a swordsman even stronger than Shanks, but he specifically pointed at sword skills. The mention of skills is an indication of what's required to be WSS.

Yeah no, that's basically what you're assuming Oda intended to say when the dialogue does not even imply that, when it talks about how Mihawk has better sword skills AND is the STRONGEST Swordsman in the World both at the same time.

Let me remind you of all the narrative surrounding the title that you need to blatantly ignore to harp on to your assumption of what the title entails:
(1) the method for becoming the WSS which is to beat the title holder in a 1v1 duel & not a measure of sword skills (refer Zoro challenging Mihawk for the title in Baratie, or Zoro looking to beat Mihawk post-King fight).
(2) Zoro's own definition of his dream - which is to not lose to any swordsman, not to be the most skilled swordsman.
(3) Zoro's growth in the entirety of post-TS being Haki and not Sword Skills.

If you ignore all of this & re-write the manga, then yes - "sKiLLs" is an indication of what's required to be WSS.

The concept of haki was mentioned early in Pre- TS ( breathe of all things) where Zoro showcased something he never did again Pre- TS until Post -TS. Even in Wano swordsmen are taught they need Ryou to be swordsmen. So we have always known that haki played a part in swordsmanship.

The issue here is that there are haki aspects outside of swordsmanship, which is why Luffy is a better haki user than Zoro despite not being a swordsman.

Read above.

 

[comrade]

So if I understand correctly, pumping his swords full of Haoshoku and becoming the King of Hell classifies you as a swordsmaster. But why was Zoro not recognized as such before, e.g. when he cut Pica, since swordsmanship is "jUsT sKiLl"? Has Zoro's skill improved by accessing Haoshoku?

 

[Guiding_Thunder]

Same goes for CoO, CoA & CoC and in fact pretty much every haki form... does that change the fact that all these hakis are being used to enhance one's swordsmanship?
Like, Luffy was a df user/brawler both before & after he learnt Haki; Zoro was a swordsman both before & after he learnt Haki; Sanji was a kick-based martial artist both before & after he learnt haki and so on & so forth.
The whole point is that Haki, on it's own, is not a fighting style - it's a power which enhances other fighting styles (what already exists) & that's exactly what FS or CoO-killing CoC or pretty much any haki form for that matter, does.

There are aspects of haki that enhance one's swordsmanship, and there are others that have nothing to do with it. For example:

1. Luffy's internal destruction haki can be used to enhance his attacks and destroy from the inside. This aspect of haki can't be used with a sword, since swordsman cut everything and nothing, and is only relevant when one is using their hands I.e Luffy.

2. Similarly using CoC to destroy your surroundings, has nothing to do with swordsmanship since a sword is not required. CoC is only relevant in swordsmanship when it comes to coating your sword with it.

According to the film, he was known for it back when he was duelling Mihawk itself, so your entire argument of counting this outside of swordsmanship is moot.

Just checked, this information is from the One piece volume 4 billion, and it states that Shanks is known as " the murderer of the colour of observation haki". This is his current epithet, and no indication was given on whether he could use it in past when dueling Mihawk. So the argument is still valid my friend.

Yeah no, that's basically what you're assuming Oda intended to say when the dialogue does not even imply that, when it talks about how Mihawk has better sword skills AND is the STRONGEST Swordsman in the World both at the same time.

Let me remind you of all the narrative surrounding the title that you need to blatantly ignore to harp on to your assumption of what the title entails:
(1) the method for becoming the WSS which is to beat the title holder in a 1v1 duel & not a measure of sword skills (refer Zoro challenging Mihawk for the title in Baratie, or Zoro looking to beat Mihawk post-King fight).
(2) Zoro's own definition of his dream - which is to not lose to any swordsman, not to be the most skilled swordsman.
(3) Zoro's growth in the entirety of post-TS being Haki and not Sword Skills.

If you ignore all of this & re-write the manga, then yes - "sKiLLs" is an indication of what's required to be WSS.

The mere mention of sword skills makes them relevant you can't hide from that fact.

To answer you questions:
1. We have no idea how Mihawk became the WSS, and as far as we know the only strong swordsmen from that era where Roger and Shiki, none of whom Mihawk beat. In fact it's highly suggested that the only one that could challenge Mihawk in a sword duel was Shanks prior to losing his arm.
2. This basically means he can't lose in a sword duel, and his dream from the beginning was to find the WSS and beat him.
3. I already answered you, go re-read Alabasta, there are haki aspects that have always been part of swordsmanship I.e. breathe of all things. Zoro only started learning and developing them post- TS.

Skill is what makes Mihawk a better swordsman than Shanks, not haki or strength. This is a fact that was stated. I never said that you only need skill to be the WSS, I even mentioned that haki was introduced back in Alabasta as essential for swordsmanship mastery.

 

[HA001]

There are aspects of haki that enhance one's swordsmanship, and there are others that have nothing to do with it. For example:

1. Luffy's internal destruction haki can be used to enhance his attacks and destroy from the inside. This aspect of haki can't be used with a sword, since swordsman cut everything and nothing, and is only relevant when one is using their hands I.e Luffy.

2. Similarly using CoC to destroy your surroundings, has nothing to do with swordsmanship since a sword is not required. CoC is only relevant in swordsmanship when it comes to coating your sword with it.

Just checked, this information is from the One piece volume 4 billion, and it states that Shanks is known as " the murderer of the colour of observation haki". This is his current epithet, and no indication was given on whether he could use it in past when dueling Mihawk. So the argument is still valid my friend.

The mere mention of sword skills makes them relevant you can't hide from that fact.

To answer you questions:
1. We have no idea how Mihawk became the WSS, and as far as we know the only strong swordsmen from that era where Roger and Shiki, none of whom Mihawk beat. In fact it's highly suggested that the only one that could challenge Mihawk in a sword duel was Shanks prior to losing his arm.
2. This basically means he can't lose in a sword duel, and his dream from the beginning was to find the WSS and beat him.
3. I already answered you, go re-read Alabasta, there are haki aspects that have always been part of swordsmanship I.e. breathe of all things. Zoro only started learning and developing them post- TS.

Skill is what makes Mihawk a better swordsman than Shanks, not haki or strength. This is a fact that was stated. I never said that you only need skill to be the WSS, I even mentioned that haki was introduced back in Alabasta as essential for swordsmanship mastery.

Who wins in a fight a zoro with average skill and acoc
Or a zoro with good skill and no haki ?

 

[Guiding_Thunder]

Who wins in a fight a zoro with average skill and acoc
Or a zoro with good skill and no haki ?

Obviously the one with haki, not really a fair comparison.
How about:
Who wins in a fight between A and B, with A having great sword skills, good ACoC, great CoO and great CoA, and B having good sword skills, great ACoC, great CoO and great CoA

 

[Shanal]

But it does, if for example Luffy couldn't use Future sight Against Kaido, he would have lost. You can't run away from this fact.

But it was implied to be the case, do you think GB would have screamed if the CoC had no effect on him ??, he obviously screamed because he felt pain. If he suddenly just sensed the CoC he would have just turned around wondering who it was, but that's not what happened.

That's like saying CoO is different from swordsmanship. CoO. FS. Counter-FS, swordsmen can use all to fight better with their styles. Zoro uses one. Mihawk is implied to be very good at it, too.

There's nothing haki does which makes a hakiman. Haki is to enhance your combat, not give you a new style.

Even Internal Destruction can be useful to make shockwave swordsmanship attacks like Hawk Wave or Ikkoku far more potent.

Unless Shanks' main fighting style is to fly up and shoot lasers out of his eyes, then use haki aura to create a whole different arm which he will punch with, there's not much argument.

But this narrative was proven to be incorrect in the recent chapter, because it says: Mihawk has greater sword skills than Shanks. So according to Oda, Mihawk's title is referring to only swordsmanship or sword skill, not overall strength.

The WSM title is a vague title since Whitebeard received it before he was even the strongest in the seas, Roger was still around when he got it, also its heavily implied he got it because he had the power to destroy the world.

Lol? Brannew didn't say he's WSS because he surpasses Shanks in swordsmanship. That was a general statement. No one talked about what Mihawk's title means.

We know for a fact that the title is a lot more than just skills, and you seem to agree. It was just a general statement. You can make a thousand assumptions about what Oda might be hinting with it but that's just your personal assumption of someone else's mindset. Oda has always kept thinks vague and fueled fan wars for years even for obvious stuff (just like how he dodged Zoro vs Sanji for longest time and even answered a question in SBS just to dodge it). Imo, he just likes being a dick with these stuff lol

The thing is that it's the STRONGEST swordsman. Strongest. Not most skilled.

WB's title, too. He's strongest man. That's it. Nothing else. He even says he can't be strongest forever after getting sick. It's a comparative title to everyone who falls within certain groups; men , swordsmen.

This is just Zoro stating that he must never lose in a sword duel against a swordsman as per his dream of being the WSS. You are the one distorting the recent chapter's clear and precise message: swordsmanship and sword skills are what makes the WSS.

You're adding words.

Zoro said "I can't lose to anyone who calls themselves a swordsman."

That's literally it. No "in sword fight", no "in skills", none of that. He simply can't lose. If he wants to be WSS, he's gotta become someone strong enough to defeat others who are officially swordsmen.

If there's any swordsman who can defeat him, his title is moot. Imagine being the STRONGEST of all swordsmen but not in reality.

And he said that in a fight where his opponent had been riding a unicycle and spitting fire at him prior.

No matter what you or I think. Zoro's dream is what he just said.

And there's a reason why Zoro's only development postskip has been all about his haki and not about these skills.

Which is why it's accepted that Roger was stronger than Mihawk, despite Mihawk being the greater swordsman.

?

No one in-verse has ever brought up those two in same conversation, much less compare them, because Roger is dead and not part of current swordsmen.

idk why some fans like to bring up him as if is relevant. Roger's swordsmanship could shit all over Mihawk's for what we know.

 

[HA001]

Obviously the one with haki, not really a fair comparison.
How about:
Who wins in a fight between A and B, with A having great sword skills, good ACoC, great CoO and great CoA, and B having good sword skills, great ACoC, great CoO and great CoA

The swordsman with better haki will always win
The skill is irrelevant.
That's why zoro is using the same sword skills from his intro
That's why his 2 teacher taught him haki no skill
That's why he became a master swordsman using acoc

 

[ConquistadoR]

There are aspects of haki that enhance one's swordsmanship, and there are others that have nothing to do with it. For example:

You missed the whole point.
Remove swordsmanship from it and add another fighting style & pretty much nothing changes as to how Haki enhances a certain fighting style.

1. Luffy's internal destruction haki can be used to enhance his attacks and destroy from the inside. This aspect of haki can't be used with a sword, since swordsman cut everything and nothing, and is only relevant when one is using their hands I.e Luffy.

That is as far as we know from the prespective of Zoro.
We don't know how Rayleigh uses that in his sword & he's pretty much the counter example to your point.
The guy who does these:

Spoiler

still relies on his sword & prefers to channel his haki through it to fight opponents of his calibre.

Spoiler

And that's what counts at the end of the day.
You cannot really say IdCoA cannot be applied to swordsmanship at all when we have no proof of that, in-fact the counter example being Rayleigh who uses swords to fight despite knowing that ability.

2. Similarly using CoC to destroy your surroundings, has nothing to do with swordsmanship since a sword is not required. CoC is only relevant in swordsmanship when it comes to coating your sword with it.

Basic CoC bursts which destroy surroundings as shown in the Katakuri vs Luffy clash?
Are you really gonna use something that current Zoro would do effortlessly? Lol.

Just checked, this information is from the One piece volume 4 billion, and it states that Shanks is known as " the murderer of the colour of observation haki". This is his current epithet, and no indication was given on whether he could use it in past when dueling Mihawk. So the argument is still valid my friend.

Aight fair.
Either way, still doesn't change my point - it is just another form of Haki that one complements his swordsmanship with when fighting against FS users.

The mere mention of sword skills makes them relevant you can't hide from that fact.

Skill is what makes Mihawk a better swordsman than Shanks, not haki or strength. This is a fact that was stated.

That wasn't stated though, you're making shit up on your own.
They said "Mihawk's swordsmanship surpasses that of Shanks" and then went on to say that he's the STRONGEST Swordsman in the World, not "most skilled swordsman in the world" lol. They never even talked about whether Mihawk is a "better" swordsman than Shanks, they straight up said he's the STRONGEST Swordsman in the world.

1. We have no idea how Mihawk became the WSS, and as far as we know the only strong swordsmen from that era where Roger and Shiki, none of whom Mihawk beat. In fact it's highly suggested that the only one that could challenge Mihawk in a sword duel was Shanks prior to losing his arm.

We do know that, his own VC states that he fought all swordsmen until there was no one left who could challenge him.
And Zoro's method of achieving his dream also proves the same.

2. This basically means he can't lose in a sword duel, and his dream from the beginning was to find the WSS and beat him.

The manga's basic interpretation of being the WSS is to not lose to any swordsman... so how do you suppose the current title holder would lose to a swordsman? Lol.

3. I already answered you, go re-read Alabasta, there are haki aspects that have always been part of swordsmanship I.e. breathe of all things. Zoro only started learning and developing them post- TS.

So some Haki is part of sword-skills while the others won't count?
So you can conveniently classify any & all haki forms Zoro pick up under "sword skills" and exclude the ones that he doesn't pick up? Lol.

 

[mly90]

There isn't single character in the series that's as obsessed with obtaining strength as Zoro always working out. He spent the entirety of Wano improving his haki just by following his journey it's cear as day you need immense strength haki and amazing swordsmanship skills to compete for the wss title. Latest chapter confirmed Mihawk is not only most skilled but the strongest swordsman in the world that obviously includes top tier haki. How do shanks fan expect him to be on the same level as Mihawk when he is basically one armed the main reason Mihawk lost all interest in dueling Shanks in the first place

 

[zorovsanji]

Oden, a non black blade user, gave kaido a ptsd and could've defeated him. Imagine what a black blade user could do. No wonder he's not interested in shanks coz these yonkos aren't on his level

 

[Rootbeer]

So if I understand correctly, pumping his swords full of Haoshoku and becoming the King of Hell classifies you as a swordsmaster. But why was Zoro not recognized as such before, e.g. when he cut Pica, since swordsmanship is "jUsT sKiLl"? Has Zoro's skill improved by accessing Haoshoku?

He's not pumping his swords full of CoC..