Controversial The GOAT of Kingdom

[Topi Jerami]

This man is not a general like the likes of Renpa, Riboku, Ouki, Ousen or Kou En. But this man needs a honorable mention:
CHANCELLOR RYO FUI

So after this fucking epic entrance the man goes right head to flex his power on Ei Sei's faction by saying flat out admitting he sent the assassins, but Ei Sei is forced to essentially take it as a joke, despite knowing he's telling the truth.

 

[Cichy]

Renpa admited he was geting rekt by Hakuki who I consider inferior to current Riboku and Ousen. Renpa's performance in Sanyou was also kinda meh if you think about it.

People also shouldn't take Riboku's statement about Renpa too seriously as it was from 10 years ago and only about direct clash.

 

[God Buggy]

Renpa's performance in Sanyou was also kinda meh if you think about it.

How was Renpa's performance meh? Hara showcased a great deal of Renpa's repertoire: his grand plan and facets of warfare, him reading Ousen's movements against Kyouen, deciphering Mougou's fortress in a way no one else could have replicated, subsequently crushing Mougou's HQ. He ended up checkmated because of Shin's victory over Rinko and Ousen but we understood how terrifying he is. Him taking the L while facing Mogou's army comprised of two Qin Six level talents and factors like Shin really ain't an issue.

I don't disagree with having Riboku, Ousen and Hakuki individually over him. But not many fellas are capable of straight up defeating Renpa in a battle imo.

 

[Rumble]

Ou Ki.

 

[Cichy]

his grand plan and facets of warfare,

His grand plan was pretty much as standard as it gets with the only more sofisticated move being his battle of minds with Ousen that still didn't work as he wanted.

The biggest problem tho is that after Genpou died he left Kanki completely unchecked and instead made a decision to go after Mougou which didn't do him any good. Mougou on paper shouldn't pose a big threat as he's a passive general in the first place. Which makes me think that leaving him alone in order to take care of much more dangerous adversary in Kanki would benefit him in the long run. If I recall Kanki capturing Wei HQ resulted in their soldiers having no place to rally and essancially being the final nail in their coffin.

him reading Ousen's movements against Kyouen,

With apparently Ousen reading into him to even bigger extent.

deciphering Mougou's fortress in a way no one else could have replicated, subsequently crushing Mougou's HQ. He ended up checkmated because of Shin's victory over Rinko and Ousen but we understood how terrifying he is.

Yeah, overcoming the fort was a good feat for his instinct, but like I said, I question whether or not the decision to go after Mougou was the right call to begin with. In order to do that Renpa had to sacrefice his personal cavalry and even if Mougou would die it still likely wouldn't end the battle since Ousen and Kanki were far from finished.

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

The two coalition leaders are top 2

Shin, Ousen will surpass them though imo

 

[Mr.Baj1o]

Bajio is the Goat end of discussion.

 

[Blackbeard]

This thread should be inducted into WG's thread hall of fame.

 

[SakazOuki]

This thread should be inducted into WG's thread hall of fame.

@Elder Lee Hung favorite thread

 

[Extravlad]

Riboku is literally stated to be stronger than Renpa by Gyoun and Ouki

He defeated Ouki so he's also above him

He negged Gekkishin in spite of him being said to be able to reproduce Gakuki's warfare

He killed Kanki and Duke Hyou as well

And what cements his position as goat for me is the fact that

Spoiler: history spoilers

He will never be defeated and will hand multiple Ls to Ousen and Qin for the rest of the series in spite of a fucking earthquake and famine nerfing his state. He will go out as a general that has never been surpassed as his death has nothing to do with warfare

 

[SakazOuki]

Riboku is literally stated to be stronger than Renpa by Gyoun and Ouki

Riboku admitted he’d lose to Renpa in a head on clash, as he would lose to Ouki
Riboku’s intel warfare is something revolutionary in the new era, and it certainly made him an enemy of unprecedented level as Ouki remarked, but that doesn’t necessarily translate in a head on clash. As chief of military affairs, Riboku is crazy smart, but on the actual battlefield there are far more qualities you look for in a general, and Renpa mastered all plain and simple.

He negged Gekkishin in spite of him being said to be able to reproduce Gakuki's warfare

Don’t be like that, Riboku had Houken with him lol
Same case with Duke Hyou

As for Kanki, Riboku’s trap was great and well thought, but he did get checkmated by Kanki and miraculously escaped death for 6 straight chapters lol

Li Mu historically has far better portrayal than manga Riboku
Whatever Riboku does now is but a compensation to the fat L he took in the Gyou campaign
And if you wanna know the real historical goat then read about Hakuki (aka Bai Qi)

 

[Cichy]

Riboku was also stated to be Qin's most dangerous enemy they faced so far by the narrator of the manga.

And the narrator is suposed to tell the story from the objective standpoint, so you can't make it more canon then this.

Riboku > Renpa is a fact at this point.

 

[Extravlad]

Riboku admitted he’d lose to Renpa in a head on clash, as he would lose to Ouki

Being better in a head on clash doesn't translate to being a better general.
Gyoun who has reasons to be biased in favour of Rinshoujo (a peer of Renpa and Ouki) called Riboku the strongest of the 3GHs in all of history

Riboku’s intel warfare is something revolutionary in the new era, and it certainly made him an enemy of unprecedented level as Ouki remarked, but that doesn’t necessarily translate in a head on clash.

Sure they have different strengths. But at the end of the day Riboku is stronger as the whole package.

As chief of military affairs, Riboku is crazy smart, but on the actual battlefield there are far more qualities you look for in a general, and Renpa mastered all plain and simple.

Renpa is better in a head on clash. Riboku is better at prep, micromanagement and see the bigger picture.

Don’t be like that, Riboku had Houken with him lol
Same case with Duke Hyou

Riboku was credited for beating Gekkishin plenty of times though. Characters within the verse stated it proves his greatness so Hara considere it Riboku's dub
Houken is nothing but a weapon. He can take the martial credit for those Ws but Riboku handed him every guy he's killed on a plate.
Same for Duke Hyou if he was put in that situation in the first place it's because Riboku fooled the whole Coalition and Qin with his plan

As for Kanki, Riboku’s trap was great and well thought, but he did get checkmated by Kanki and miraculously escaped death for 6 straight chapters lol

Yea I'd say Kanki had more plot armor going for him than Riboku in that arc lol. But Kanki is the biggest counter to Riboku in term of style anyway

 

[SakazOuki]

Riboku was also stated to be Qin's most dangerous enemy they faced so far by the narrator of the manga.

And the narrator is suposed to tell the story from the objective standpoint, so you can't make it more canon then this.

Riboku > Renpa is a fact at this point.

Sorry but that is as naive as it gets. Using Riboku's portrayal as the biggest obstacle to unification, and the most dangerous man in China as an argument really undermines what his character is about, and what makes him a unique general. I'm not saying this portrayal should be disregarded, as it is only possible to achieve this status with genius intellect. However, it doesn't really translate directly on the field.

Let's start with a simple question, in Riboku's eyes, who is the most dangerous man in China?
The answer is El Sei, obviously not because Sei possesses some military genius, but due to his ambition of unifying the lands

Now what makes Riboku the biggest obstacle to Qin, and the most dangerous man in China? The fact that he is a genius of man, a jack of all trades. Riboku is someone who possesses military genius on the level of Ousen, political awareness comparable with Saitaku, and as chief of military affairs he has the power and ability to draw grand strategems comparable, maybe even surpassing, that of Shouheikun.

That is not all, Riboku's unique point, and what separates him from every other antagonist in Kingdom, is how hellbent he is on denying Qin their dream of unification. He dedicated every fiber in his body to sabotage Qin at every turn in the manga. His genius, charisma and power allowed him to slowly but surely establish a framework for a coalition with the sole purpose of eradicating Qin.
Absolutely no one in the manga will have these qualities, he is a complete antagonist whether it's on the battelfield or in the royal courts
An enemy of unprecedented level.

This really shows how Riboku is one of the best generals, statesmen and chiefs of military.
It was never supposed to prove how Riboku is definitively stronger than X or Y, especially in a head on clash.

@Owl Ki @Elder Lee Hung @MarineHQ @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea this is a quality topic I'd like y'all to join

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Sorry but that is as naive as it gets. Using Riboku's portrayal as the biggest obstacle to unification, and the most dangerous man in China as an argument really undermines what his character is about, and what makes him a unique general. I'm not saying this portrayal should be disregarded, as it is only possible to achieve this status with genius intellect. However, it doesn't really translate directly on the field.

Let's start with a simple question, in Riboku's eyes, who is the most dangerous man in China?
The answer is El Sei, obviously not because Sei possesses some military genius, but due to his ambition of unifying the lands

Now what makes Riboku the biggest obstacle to Qin, and the most dangerous man in China? The fact that he is a genius of man, a jack of all trades. Riboku is someone who possesses military genius on the level of Ousen, political awareness comparable with Saitaku, and as chief of military affairs he has the power and ability to draw grand strategems comparable, maybe even surpassing, that of Shouheikun.

That is not all, Riboku's unique point, and what separates him from every other antagonist in Kingdom, is how hellbent he is on denying Qin their dream of unification. He dedicated every fiber in his body to sabotage Qin at every turn in the manga. His genius, charisma and power allowed him to slowly but surely establish a framework for a coalition with the sole purpose of eradicating Qin.
Absolutely no one in the manga will have these qualities, he is a complete antagonist whether it's on the battelfield or in the royal courts
An enemy of unprecedented level.

This really shows how Riboku is one of the best generals, statesmen and chiefs of military.
It was never supposed to prove how Riboku is definitively stronger than X or Y, especially in a head on clash.

@Owl Ki @Elder Lee Hung @MarineHQ @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea this is a quality topic I'd like y'all to join

Not sure where the disagreement is, but Ouki called Riboku “A commander of an unprecedented level” and Gyou’Un called him “the strongest 3GH in history”, overall he is meant to be viewed as the strongest commander of all time.

That doesn’t mean he could beat Renpa in a headon fight, it just means he is overall stronger. Being stronger head on =/= being stronger overall. Renpa > Riboku head on.

 

[MarineHQ]

Renpa > Riboku head on.

Oh you beauty

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Oh you beauty

This was always my take lmfao. Really no clue how I got labeled as a Renpa hater because I always had him as pecimistically a top 5 GG of all time. And in a headon clash I had him as literally the best General we’ve ever seen. Head on he beats Moubu, Ouki, Kanmei, he beats everybody.

It’s y’all mfs who wanked his personal martial might to oblivion lmfao

 

[SakazOuki]

“A commander of an unprecedented level”

This is the exact wording

“the strongest 3GH in history”

If I could choose 1 GH it's gonna be Riboku for sure

That doesn’t mean he could beat Renpa in a headon fight, it just means he is overall stronger. Being stronger head on =/= being stronger overall. Renpa > Riboku head on.

That's what I'm after. Riboku is the most impressive military man due to his political power and multiple talents
If I'm gonna choose the best general, as in the strongest general on the field, it's definitely not going to be Riboku
Renpa is a complete general on the field, where it actually matters. He is a martial monster, great strategist, can become an instinctual general when needed, the best at raising moral, has unique photographic memory etc.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Riboku is the most impressive military man due to his political power and multiple talents

He is the strongest for his “long-range” war. He is the strongest because he plans big climactic victories long in advance in a way really no other commander but maybe Ousen can match. Riboku didn’t kill Kanki through muscle, he killed Kanki but slowly fragmenting the Qin army until Kanki was isolated, then secretly rallied 300k men and baited Kanki into a near checkmate while keeping that army secret.

Riboku didn’t beat Ouki through muscle, he beat Ouki but luring Ouki into a death trap after planning the battle out long-beforehand.

That’s Riboku. He makes giant plans, conceals his plans from everyone else, and wins using trickery and deception. He ain’t “honest” like Renpa who will fight you head on, Riboku will fight you by lying to you and keeping you from seeing what his actual plan is.

If I'm gonna choose the best general, as in the strongest general on the field, it's definitely not going to be Riboku

If Riboku were the strongest 3GH on the field, there would be absolutely no point in having Shibashou face Ousen at Hango. Riboku would just do it himself lol. But no, because on the field, in “close range” warfare, head on warfare, “open war”, whatever you want to call it, Riboku is at the lower end of the top tier range. GG level but beneath other GGs who specialize in headon warfare like Moubu or Shibashou. Or Renpa, lol.

So yeah. That’s how it is.

 

[Cichy]

It was never supposed to prove how Riboku is definitively stronger than X or Y, especially in a head on clash.

People are too hellbent on this whole "direct clash" thing probably due to something I call battledome mentality.

"Place character X against character Y under specific circumstances and tell me who wins" sort of thing. The problem is that this is not how wars in kingdom work and characters within the story can influence circumstances surrounding the clash itself. Riboku and Ousen are two biggest examples of this as they often prepare their hand in advance.

There's also the issue of Riboku's "direct clash" statement being said over 10 years ago when many prominent figures of current era where still behind in experience.

This is the exact wording

.

I don't think this really matters. Ouki made this conclusion simply based on Riboku's ability to strategize and manipulate information. He had no idea about Riboku's other qualities such as skills in politics, his will to stop unification at all cost etc. The context clearly suggests this is about Riboku as a commander.