General & Others The Two Years of Illusion - Time Skip Difference

[Geo]

Idk. I think he's just shit if he's bleeding from pre-skip Luffy attacks.

Garp and Blackbeard bled to even weaker attacks from preskip Luffy.
Did Magellan even bleed?
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Oars is still that strong, Zoro and Sanji cannot stop his attacks in their tracks now either,

What are you talking about.
Zoro stopped an island busting attack in it's tracks.

 

[Kenshiro11]

Yeah, he got magically stronger because you want it so?

So bb without gura gura is as strong as bb with it? Funny

 

[garciajulieen]

Let's start with something that you wont believe - Luffy and Zoro were far stronger in pre-TS than people realize.
They were made to look weak against a Pacifista, who is heavily modified and tough, which doesnt apply to others.
If I had to guess where pre-TS Luffy and Zoro stand, I would say that Luffy is at the top of so-called veteran tier while Zoro is in YC tier.
Sounds crazy? I know but go with it, for now. That automatically raises the level of all the pre-TS people they fought, where it should be.

Crocodile wasnt outclassed, he killed Luffy 2 times, had his DF made useless because he could no longer turn into sand. Gomu no Storm is very powerful, gears or no gears. Of course, plot helped that Luffy wins but that is common for Luffy... That same Crocodile is showing his true performance in Marineford, looks much better because he isnt facing the MC against who he has to lose.

Enel's firepower was simply countered naturally, Luffy did nothing for it, he just happened to have the right DF. He could react to Luffy but he was stunned that his powers arent working and due to shock his Observation went poof... The golden arm is more powerful than G3 and it pressed Enel against the golden bell into a sandwich. Despite all of that, Enel was still on his legs and went to the moon.

Cp9 members are stronger than the current Toppi Robbo that we are seeing. Lucci for sure is stronger than WsW and I would definitely include post-DF Kaku as well. Both of them are in YC tier, WG's best assassins arent fodder, simple as that. Now it makes more sense that Luffy is among best Veterans and Zoro in the YC tier, after you realize that CP9 were also YCs...

Oars is still that strong, Zoro and Sanji cannot stop his attacks in their tracks now either, they can only deflect them, which is what they did in pre-TS too. Only Nightmare Luffy can stop attacks from Oars because NML is physically the strongest character by FAR.

Pacifista looked tough but Luffy and Zoro would have defeated it, each, eventually. Other characters dont have the same reinforcements as Pacifistas. Chinjao isnt fodder tho, he is a leader of Happo Navy for who prime Garp had to train to beat him and falls somewhere in high YC tier in his prime, low YC tier in his old age. His Dragon Drill still shines.

No, F6 get destroyed by those pre-TS villains, the strength relation between WsW and Lucci is confirmation for that, Lucci is the stronger of the two and he was defeated by G2 Luffy which means that WsW would have been defeated by G2 Luffy as well.
However, it is very bad to observe things based on Luffy, he is an anomaly. The plot turns heaven and earth so people lose against him.

And Crocodile were hyped by Doflamingo twice.

 

[MarineHQ]

I think both Blackbeard and Akainu are more or less the same they were in pre-TS.
What could have Akainu gained from beating Aokiji? His haki bloomed? He already had all the haki he will ever have...

Yes, his Haki bloomed most likely. We don't know his Haki game because we've never seen it. It's reasonable to assume it got stronger as their DF abilities were equal which means that the one with the superior Haki/Physical stats pulled through.

You think Current BB is pretty much ~ Yami Teach ?

 

[Shanal]

Garp and Blackbeard bled to even weaker attacks from preskip Luffy.
Did Magellan even bleed?
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What are you talking about.
Zoro stopped an island busting attack in it's tracks.

Forced to his knees*, mb. Which is actually much worse.

BB entire thing is taking fuckton of pain and damage before nullifying it.

And big difference between hitting a Garp who isn't retaliating or defending and forcing an opponent who isn't holding back to his knees.

 

[nik87]

What are you talking about.
Zoro stopped an island busting attack in it's tracks.

It is different. Hakai is energy blast that technically weights nothing but still creates large force.
Oars is heavy and boosted by Gomu no shadow imitation. Also, Zoro stopped Hakai with Haki barrier.
I meant stopping Oars just physically is not doable, for any character. Haki barrier would do the work true.

So bb without gura gura is as strong as bb with it? Funny

And what stats has BB improved by eating Gura? All of them? Or just one?

And Crocodile were hyped by Doflamingo twice.

Exactly and Croc implied that he is superior compared to Doffy.

Yes, his Haki bloomed most likely. We don't know his Haki game because we've never seen it. It's reasonable to assume it got stronger as their DF abilities were equal which means that the one with the superior Haki/Physical stats pulled through.

You think Current BB is pretty much ~ Yami Teach ?

Well, they eventually reach their ceilings and no improvements can be obtained, no haki bloom to offer something new because they already got everything. I think Akainu won because of willpower, he is more ruthless and relentless than Aokiji.

Pretty much, with significantly high destructive Capacity due to Gura no Mi.
All of his others stats were not improved by eating Gura because Gura doesnt do that...

 

[Finalbeta]

It's vastly unclear whether or not Akainu and Aokiji or at least one of the two improved during that fight. Speculation wise I would tend to believe that they possibly did at least slightly, it would explain how Akainu would turn into a more entrancing opponent at EoS. But still this is not necessarily the case if he was already good enough to be as much as needed that wise.

Still I think the experience of a combat of that entity to the last blood probably added something to their experience repertoire... so that wise I would be more confident.

 

[MarineHQ]

Well, they eventually reach their ceilings and no improvements can be obtained, no haki bloom to offer something new because they already got everything. I think Akainu won because of willpower, he is more ruthless and relentless than Aokiji.

This isn't the case for their battle though. Admiral vs Admiral was unheard of in the history of the Marines, that's something going beyond what Marine training could bring you. Logically speaking both Akainu and Aokiji were trained to their highest capacity but their fight is like the ultimate training. As Rayleigh said Haki blooms in extreme situations and I doubt Akainu experienced something more extreme in his life.

Pretty much, with significantly high destructive Capacity due to Gura no Mi.
All of his others stats were not improved by eating Gura because Gura doesnt do that...

This is what becoming stronger means though. You're downplaying the insane strength that the Gura Gura gives you.

 

[nik87]

This isn't the case for their battle though. Admiral vs Admiral was unheard of in the history of the Marines, that's something going beyond what Marine training could bring you. Logically speaking both Akainu and Aokiji were trained to their highest capacity but their fight is like the ultimate training. As Rayleigh said Haki blooms in extreme situations and I doubt Akainu experienced something more extreme in his life.

You may be right but story needs to confirm it otherwise there is no change.
This fight right now is the most extreme Kaido and Big Mom will ever experience. Will they bloom and improve?

This is what becoming stronger means though. You're downplaying the insane strength that the Gura Gura gives you.

I am not downplaying it. Give Gura to Zoro. What changes? Nothing...
He already has means to destroy shit, getting different means to do the same doesnt change his strength.
Blackbeard already could nullify attacks through Black Vortex, he doesnt need Gura to do it.

He already could swallow entire towns and demolish them through Liberation, he doesnt need Gura for it...
His DC increased, all nice and good but usually useless on 2m rubber Jesus in front of him.
Destroying islands far away isnt affecting the MC that stands in front of him. Eating Gura doesnt improve his other stats.

 

[Geo]

Forced to his knees*, mb. Which is actually much worse.

BB entire thing is taking fuckton of pain and damage before nullifying it.

And big difference between hitting a Garp who isn't retaliating or defending and forcing an opponent who isn't holding back to his knees.

So he didn't bleed. You have no point.

BB who defeated Ace was sent flying..that has nothing to do with his fruit liability.

Magellan wasn't defending either. Poor argument.
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It is different. Hakai is energy blast that technically weights nothing but still creates large force.
Oars is heavy and boosted by Gomu no shadow imitation. Also, Zoro stopped Hakai with Haki barrier.
I meant stopping Oars just physically is not doable, for any character. Haki barrier would do the work true.

It isn't.
Just because it is an enemy blast doesn't mean it is weightless.
It is an island busting force. If it was only because of haki barrier, Zoro wouldn't have been leaning into the attack adding his own strength.

This is a non argument. A punch from Oars can be physically stopped by Zoro...a certified mountain buster

 

[nik87]

t isn't.
Just because it is an enemy blast doesn't mean it is weightless.
It is an island busting force. If it was only because of haki barrier, Zoro wouldn't have been leaning into the attack adding his own strength.

This is a non argument. A punch from Oars can be physically stopped by Zoro...a certified mountain buster

I did say it still creates force but I also mentioned that it is stopped in a different way - haki barrier. True, physical power also plays a role.
Can Zoro stop a punch from Oars without help of Haki barrier? Unlikely, very unlikely.
Can Zoro grab Oars by the hair and toss his left and right like NML did? No freaking way, nobody in the world can do that.

 

[Geo]

I did say it still creates force but I also mentioned that it is stopped in a different way - haki barrier. True, physical power also plays a role.
Can Zoro stop a punch from Oars without help of Haki barrier? Unlikely, very unlikely.
Can Zoro grab Oars by the hair and toss his left and right like NML did? No freaking way, nobody in the world can do that.

Of course Zoro can stop it without haki barrier. The reason Zoro needed haki barrier against Hakai was to stop it from spilling over..the rest was all his strength.

The numbers are about the size of Oars yet Zoro easily cut a full swing from one of them. Are you claiming swordless Zoro wouldn't be able to toss a number? Bruh..

 

[nik87]

Of course Zoro can stop it without haki barrier. The reason Zoro needed haki barrier against Hakai was to stop it from spilling over..the rest was all his strength.

The numbers are about the size of Oars yet Zoro easily cut a full swing from one of them. Are you claiming swordless Zoro wouldn't be able to toss a number? Bruh..

How did base Luffy stop club swing from hybrid Kaido? Through his strength or through haki barrier?
However, you may be soemwhat right since Zoro did stop the giant dragon's charge, back in PH without haki barrier...

Cutting their club has nothing to do with tossing them around, one is display of cutting power, the other is display of raw strength.
As I have mentioned, two physical monsters like Monster Chopper and LinLin have put their back into tossing Zoan Queen around.
Numbers and Oars are towering above Queen by quite a distance, they are much bigger and heavier. I dont think anyone can toss them.

 

[Shanal]

So he didn't bleed. You have no point.

BB who defeated Ace was sent flying..that has nothing to do with his fruit liability.

Magellan wasn't defending either. Poor argument.
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He actually did bleed. G2/G3 Luffy punched him in the stomach, sent him to the knees, and made him cough blood.

And idk why you're spam bringing up BB. His entire gimmick is taking a lot of damage- hell, even normal hits hurt him that much more due to how abnormally his logia powers work.

And Magellan was his actual enemy. Unless you're trying to tell him he held back incredibly like Garp did for whatever reason- Luffy, fair and square, fucked him up quite decently with his physical strength alone there.

Idk what your meaning of underrated is, but if some dude in a serious fight ends up coughing blood and on his knees against pre-skip IE, roughed up Luffy, he's far from shiniest star.

Or what, are we going to ignore damage done just because it doesn't fit headcanons and personal narratives? Is Zoro's Tatsumaki bleeding Kaido also w/e and not impactful because Ace or Luffy hurt BB some?

 

[nik87]

He actually did bleed. G2/G3 Luffy punched him in the stomach, sent him to the knees, and made him cough blood.

Every top tier with normal body would bleed from same attack - Shanks, Mihawk, Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru if you remove their intangibility.
You name it. Magellan, Garp and Blackbeard were top tiers who cannot avoid the hit thanks to intangibility, that's the only difference.
The only exceptions are those with abnormal bodies and toughness.

 

[Iaarm]

Finally someone with logic. People dont realise that the SH pirates( especially Luffy and Zoro ) were always strong. They only lacked haki.
I mean look at an exhausted Zoros performance against Kuma, one of the stronger warlords.

 

[Geo]

How did base Luffy stop club swing from hybrid Kaido? Through his strength or through haki barrier?
However, you may be soemwhat right since Zoro did stop the giant dragon's charge, back in PH without haki barrier...

Cutting their club has nothing to do with tossing them around, one is display of cutting power, the other is display of raw strength.
As I have mentioned, two physical monsters like Monster Chopper and LinLin have put their back into tossing Zoan Queen around.
Numbers and Oars are towering above Queen by quite a distance, they are much bigger and heavier. I dont think anyone can toss them.

What does Base Luffy v Kaido have to do with Zoro tossing a number?

The dragon from PH is even larger than Oars

He'd have to at least match their strength for him to cut the club being swung. Cutting power ties to physical strength

What? You insinuating that Linlin somehow needed her best to toss Queen?
So you even think Kaido can't toss a number?
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He actually did bleed. G2/G3 Luffy punched him in the stomach, sent him to the knees, and made him cough blood.

And idk why you're spam bringing up BB. His entire gimmick is taking a lot of damage- hell, even normal hits hurt him that much more due to how abnormally his logia powers work.

And Magellan was his actual enemy. Unless you're trying to tell him he held back incredibly like Garp did for whatever reason- Luffy, fair and square, fucked him up quite decently with his physical strength alone there.

Idk what your meaning of underrated is, but if some dude in a serious fight ends up coughing blood and on his knees against pre-skip IE, roughed up Luffy, he's far from shiniest star.

Or what, are we going to ignore damage done just because it doesn't fit headcanons and personal narratives? Is Zoro's Tatsumaki bleeding Kaido also w/e and not impactful because Ace or Luffy hurt BB some?

Ok he bled still better than BB and Garp

Because it renders your point useless. That's not his gimmick. He feels more pain...has nothing to do with him getting sent flying by a far weaker attack

What does being his enemy have to do with the fact that he wasn't defending . It is literally in the panel you posted.

So either extend your claim to BB and Garp or concede that your point is plain wrong

 

[nik87]

What does Base Luffy v Kaido have to do with Zoro tossing a number?

The dragon from PH is even larger than Oars

He'd have to at least match their strength for him to cut the club being swung. Cutting power ties to physical strength

What? You insinuating that Linlin somehow needed her best to toss Queen?
So you even think Kaido can't toss a number?

Nothing but it has to do with Zoro stopping Hakai. Luffy did it entirely thanks to haki barrier, no strength involved.
Well the dragon has big belly and long neck and tail which are rather excelling in length than width but ok, let's say they are comparable.
Dragon's charge probably doesnt generate the same force Oars' rifle got from imitation of tensile force of Gomu no Mi...

I dont know about that, I dont think it is necessary. One Number can hold another Number above his head. Do you think LinLin, Kaido and Zoro can do the same? Seems very unlikely to me. LinLin certainly looked like she was trying very hard to toss Queen around.
I think neither of them can toss a Number, not Zoro, not LinLin, not Kaido. That's why Nightmare Luffy is that ridiculous.

Spoiler

 

[Geo]

Nothing but it has to do with Zoro stopping Hakai. Luffy did it entirely thanks to haki barrier, no strength involved.
Well the dragon has big belly and long neck and tail which are rather excelling in length than width but ok, let's say they are comparable.
Dragon's charge probably doesnt generate the same force Oars' rifle got from imitation of tensile force of Gomu no Mi...

I dont know about that, I dont think it is necessary. One Number can hold another Number above his head. Do you think LinLin, Kaido and Zoro can do the same? Seems very unlikely to me. LinLin certainly looked like she was trying very hard to toss Queen around.
I think neither of them can toss a Number, not Zoro, not LinLin, not Kaido. That's why Nightmare Luffy is that ridiculous.

Spoiler

Hakai is an island level attack. You can't compare it to Kaido's casual swings
It wasn't just slightly bigger, it's size is several times bigger from the office is sizes which got released.
How would you know how much force it generates though.

Yes I think they can replicate it. You are heavily underestimating their physical strength

 

[nik87]

Hakai is an island level attack. You can't compare it to Kaido's casual swings
It wasn't just slightly bigger, it's size is several times bigger from the office is sizes which got released.
How would you know how much force it generates though.

Yes I think they can replicate it. You are heavily underestimating their physical strength

My point is, haki barrier might be largely responsible for it instead of physical strength.
We certainly know that base Luffy cannot match hybrid Kaido in physical strength and yet, due to haki barrier, he did.
I dont know, I am guessing, tensile force looks more impressive.
Well, if they can replicate it they certainly havent tried so far and the closest feat is tossing Queen which looks like quite a task...