Questions & Mysteries What exactly is the difference between Advanced Coa and Advanced Coc

Geo · Jul 18, 2021

As with most things CoA related, it’s not been well developed or explained.

I think what the problem is that our first explanation came from Hyo. And Hyo, being from Wano, doesn’t actually know what Haki is, he calls both CoA and CoC Ryou.

So here

He’s actually describing both CoA and CoC. He says “All I can teach you… is that which covers the outside.”

So Hyo, despite being a mighty blade in the past, and knowing how to use Ryou, can’t teach the second step, because it’s actually CoC, not CoA. Hyo doesn’t have CoC, he can’t use it. But because he’s from Wano, and doesn’t actually know what CoC is, or Haki, it’s just called Ryou.

But we can see that Luffy can do the second step, but only unconsciously, because it’s CoC, which Luffy has and can use.

Then it’s not until here that Luffy actually pieces together what Hyo was trying to teach him

And that the second step is actually CoC, not CoA as he’s been assuming.

That’s the only thing that makes sense to me anyway.

So how it goes is

Step Zero- bog standard CoA

Step One- CoA Ryou. The thing that Hyogoro can teach, Armament Haki that has the sort of forcefield look. Also used by Sentomaru

Step Two- CoC Ryou. Hyogoro couldn’t teach it, because it was CoC, Luffy was using it accidentally, not really knowing what he was doing until the fight on the roof. Zoro also seems to have used it, again accidentally, when he scarred Kaido.

Post automatically merged: Jul 18, 2021

That’s what I think, anyway, it’s still pretty messy

That is a good explanation and quite plausible.

Only issue is the panel where Luffy removes Yamato's cuffs with penetrating haki. The panel indicated that Luffy did it consciously. So if it was COC he would've known before the Kaido fight

Formerly Seth · Jul 18, 2021

It's hard to talk about something that wasn't explained properly and chances are it won't be anytime soon judging Oda's lackluster story with explaining powers.

I have 2 theories about this:

1. AdvCoC is just a boost that stacks with AdvCoA/normal CoA attacks. ( Don't mistake with #2 ).

2. AdvCoC is another layer of coating.

Fn Lucci · Jul 18, 2021

Seth said:

If people are saying shit like "ryou" then it's just as much about fumbling the little you have as it is about not having enough.

Formerly Seth · Jul 18, 2021

Fn Lucci said:

I don't care about that term.

Ryuo is just how Wano people call one variant of AdvCoA.

Minatoze Narutomaki · Jul 18, 2021

@Lightbolt
Advance CoA: an invisible armor when attacked with gets past Physical body
Advance CoC: superior invisible armor
CoA weaker Armor
CoC stronger Armor
Armor : CoA < CoC
Offense: CoC < CoA
CoA/CoC << CoA+CoC
:smart:

Fn Lucci · Jul 18, 2021

Seth said:

No, it's what they call Haki

Formerly Seth · Jul 18, 2021

Fn Lucci said:

Whatever then. Fuck them.

Wano was only pogg when Ryuma was alive.

Chiji_ · Jul 18, 2021

From how I interpret it adcoc is an extra layer of damage exclusive to ppl that have coc, probably increases knockout potential as well more so than base coc (thinking of the Luffy one shot). Adcoa allows any user to have barrier to attack and defend against things without touching( contact will be made w the force field before it even comes close to you like an extra layer of force), also an extra rare skill that allows your attacks to bypass an enemies or an object’s defense to harm them internally.

Garp the Fist · Jul 18, 2021

ShinmenTakezo said:

Geo said:

So I think that with this next step of Ryou, advanced CoC, whatever it wants to be called, that Luffy was still operating on instinct for a lot of what he was doing, up until the roof, where it was pieced together.

So this is the scene

Luffy there is certainly taking off the manacles deliberately. We also see he’s needing to focus, closing the eyes, deep breaths, quite like when he was trying to learn how to use Future Sight at first. Usual sort of mystical, meditative state.

I also find it quite interesting that he isn’t using Hardening there, unlike the other times, but that might be something that’s changed in the volume release, so I won’t entirely focus on it.

So I think what’s happening there is that Luffy does know what he wants to do, but he doesn’t know how he’s doing it. He thinks it‘s CoA, he is probably using CoA (wastefully), but it’s actually CoC that’s doing the . He just doesn‘t know it. We question how Luffy can use CoC deliberately without knowining what he’s doing, but we don’t know- what does using CoC feel like? What does using CoA feel like? Does it feel different when using CoC to overpower wills than it does to infuse attacks with it? Does it make the body part tingle, or feel cold, or on fire, or anything like that? Zoro uses CoC and doesn’t have a clue, he needs Kaido to actually tell him what has happened. I don’t think it’s as simple as Luffy using it and goes “oh, this is what CoC feels like, not CoA, that must be what I’m doing.”

I think it’s meant to be a sort of primal, instinctive force that is only truly understood in the heat of battle. Luffy needed to be on the receiving end of Ragnarok to work out what was happening. Zoro could only tap into to it accidentally when he was on his last legs and trying to give out every ounce of his power. It’s not meant to be easily understood by the characters (which is fine), and it’s certainly not well explained to the readers (which is more annoying).

Difference in visuals, well, that’s just Oda and Haki really. Black lightning bolts flying around everywhere with nary an explanation, Hardening only existing post-skip…

I think I can sepeate the cases into it looking different when trying hit hit someone and when letting it flow into an object (the three exploding handcuffs). Zoro’s one we only see after the impact, and from behind as well.

Lightbolt said:

So, Hyogoro can use CoA. On Wano, that is part of a thing called Ryou.

But CoC is also a part of Ryou.

But he cannot destroy a thing from the inside. That’s the application of Ryou that uses CoC.

That’s why he can’t take his own exploding collar off. He says that is beyond him

He knows it can be done, but he can’t do it himself. And he can’t teach it, despite the fact he was a great swordsman himself, because destroying something from the inside can only be done using CoC, which he doesn’t have.

Geo · Jul 18, 2021

Garp the Fist said:

The issue is we know Luffy can sense COC. He knew Kaido was hitting him with COC so if he was channeling COC into the cuffs, he should feel that it is COC and not COA.

Similarly we also have Kaido who can sense COC in attacks as shown when he was cut with Asura.

In Zoro's case, I think since he hadn't used COC before , he wouldn't actually know unlike Luffy and Kaido.

So I viewed it as penetrating haki is COA being placed into the opponent. However, it is not limited to only COA. COC which can also work as coating can be added to COA to increase the penetrating power. This in my view is what causes the black lightning streak visible before an attack utilizing COC coating

Finalbeta · Jul 18, 2021

A difference that can be spot quite easily is efficiency.

G3 Red Roc didn't look so much proficient compared to simple Base CoC punches. So I would suggest that CoC is in all likelihood the more high-performative power.

Master OF Haki · Jul 18, 2021

Garp the Fist said:

Then, does that mean that Kaido can use advanced CoA as well?
:choppawhat:

Lightbolt said:

The problem is, is that we first need to understand/find out whether CoC is a different class of haki on its own–like CoO or CoA–or it's a complementary type of ability that is meant to work with CoA and CoO to strengthen them, and cannot be used separately.

Side note: Oda's entire marketing strategy is to never reveal any mystery, otherwise the audience will lose the interest. Oda goes out of his way to DELIBERATELY make things confusing even after revealing it in the story in order to keep the mysteries alive. Oda will never truly reveal anything in one piece, he's too INSECURE to do that, even at the end of one piece I don't think Oda will give any explanation about haki.

Garp the Fist · Jul 18, 2021

Geo said:

We don’t actually know that Luffy can sense CoC.

Luffy says he only figured out what was happening after he was hit by Ragnarok. Not at any point before it. And he doesn’t say that he “sensed” that CoC was being used, but only that he “figured out” what was happening.

There’s too many assumptions being made here about what Luffy can and can’t do, and whether it’s easy to tell the difference between CoA and CoC being used. All we know for a fact is that Luffy was hit by Ragnarok, made a realisation that CoC could be used in attacks, and explicitly tied that back to Hyogoro’s explanation of a level of Ryou that Hyogoro himself could not use.

Geo said:

Yeah, but Kaido is in a very different position to Luffy and Zoro. He has prior knowledge about CoC being used in a fight, they don’t.

He is very experienced and knew for a fact when CoC was being used and how it was being used, while Luffy and Zoro are scrambling to find the answers themselves.

On the other hand, he seems to know very little about CoA Ryou, as it’s used by the swordsmen of Wano, given his confusion about how Luffy and the Scabbards could actually harm him. Because there’s no real reason for him to know it- he’s not a swordsman. Luffy only knows it because Hyogoro trained him in it.

Master OF Haki said:

Maybe, maybe not.

The way that Luffy learned how to clad attacks in CoC was the method the samurai of Wano learn

He had normal CoA to start with

He learned the Mighty Blade level of CoA that Hyogoro can do

And from there he eventually picked up the CoC use, that Hyogoro, despite being a Mighty Blade, could not do.

But we don’t know if that’s the only way to learn how to do it.. That’s the way the people of Wano learn it, but they know very little about Haki in the way the rest of the world understands it. Maybe when Kaido learned it he skipped right past the CoA use and went straight to CoC. His confusion about the Scabbards hurting him suggests this.

Kaido seems not to know very much about the Mighty Blade Ryou CoA use. He was very confused when the Scabbards and Zoro cut him, and when Luffy hurt him with a punch.

The problem with all this information is that it’s coming from three sources, none of whom fully understand everything they are talking about, and Oda isn’t providing much in the way of answers either.

Hyogoro calls it Ryou and the people of Wano don’t really know what Haki is (like Ashura calling basic CoC “Oden’s special trick”)
Kaido does know about imbuing attack with CoC but is baffled by Ryou
Luffy is piecing things together through Hyogoro’s teachings and his experiences

Fn Lucci · Jul 18, 2021

Luffy can sense CoC. Anyone who is familiar with it can tell when it's used, actually.

Zoro's just a different story for a number of reasons

Master OF Haki · Jul 18, 2021

Garp the Fist said:

But we don’t know if that’s the only way to learn how to do it.. That’s the way the people of Wano learn it, but they know very little about Haki in the way the rest of the world understands it. Maybe when Kaido learned it he skipped right past the CoA use and went straight to CoC. His confusion about the Scabbards hurting him suggests this.

Kaido seems not to know very much about the Mighty Blade Ryou CoA use. He was very confused when the Scabbards and Zoro cut him, and when Luffy hurt him with a punch.

The problem with all this information is that it’s coming from three sources, none of whom fully understand everything they are talking about, and Oda isn’t providing much in the way of answers either.

Hyogoro calls it Ryou and the people of Wano don’t really know what Haki is (like Ashura calling basic CoC “Oden’s special trick”)
Kaido does know about imbuing attack with CoC but is baffled by Ryou
Luffy is piecing things together through Hyogoro’s teachings and his experiences[/QUOThE]
It goes to my point that Oda makes everything deliberately confusing in order to keep the mysteries alive.

kom5 · Jul 18, 2021

Lightbolt said:

The difference is the second coat and range

Adv COA has a short medium its one or two cm after your fist

Adv COA is the second layer to adv coa it increases the range and you can hit/bypass the defensive of your opponent without touching it the inner gets more damage while the range is bigger

It's far more powerful than adv.coa who barely can reach inside

It's range and attack power are far greater than adv.coa

PurpleSwordsman · Jul 18, 2021

-The boost in AP, CoC gives much more.
-CoC seems to be more brute strength, while CoA is much more of a skill (since it can go within the "object" and destroy it from inside).
-CoC range is a bit greater, some centimeters more. The "bubble" between the impact and the fist/kick of the user is greater with CoC.

Charlotte Horchata · Jul 18, 2021

Garp the Fist said:

As with most things CoA related, it’s not been well developed or explained.

I think what the problem is that our first explanation came from Hyo. And Hyo, being from Wano, doesn’t actually know what Haki is, he calls both CoA and CoC Ryou.

So here

He’s actually describing both CoA and CoC. He says “All I can teach you… is that which covers the outside.”

So Hyo, despite being a mighty blade in the past, and knowing how to use Ryou, can’t teach the second step, because it’s actually CoC, not CoA. Hyo doesn’t have CoC, he can’t use it. But because he’s from Wano, and doesn’t actually know what CoC is, or Haki, it’s just called Ryou.

But we can see that Luffy can do the second step, but only unconsciously, because it’s CoC, which Luffy has and can use.

Then it’s not until here that Luffy actually pieces together what Hyo was trying to teach him

And that the second step is actually CoC, not CoA as he’s been assuming.

That’s the only thing that makes sense to me anyway.

So how it goes is

Step Zero- bog standard CoA

Step One- CoA Ryou. The thing that Hyogoro can teach, Armament Haki that has the sort of forcefield look. Also used by Sentomaru

Step Two- CoC Ryou. Hyogoro couldn’t teach it, because it was CoC, Luffy was using it accidentally, not really knowing what he was doing until the fight on the roof. Zoro also seems to have used it, again accidentally, when he scarred Kaido.

Post automatically merged: Jul 18, 2021

That’s what I think, anyway, it’s still pretty messy

The problem here is Red Roc: why exactly are Zoro and company surprised at the haki it is infused with? Considering that Luffy wanted to learn Hyo's armament in order to destroy Kaido's scales and that Zoro can do that to begin with, then what's so strange for him? What is Luffy consciously using between Zoro's "advanced armament" and Kaido's "advanced conqueror's" if hurting from the inside is the latter?

Sword God Ryuma · Jul 18, 2021

Garp the Fist said:

As with most things CoA related, it’s not been well developed or explained.

I think what the problem is that our first explanation came from Hyo. And Hyo, being from Wano, doesn’t actually know what Haki is, he calls both CoA and CoC Ryou.

So here

He’s actually describing both CoA and CoC. He says “All I can teach you… is that which covers the outside.”

So Hyo, despite being a mighty blade in the past, and knowing how to use Ryou, can’t teach the second step, because it’s actually CoC, not CoA. Hyo doesn’t have CoC, he can’t use it. But because he’s from Wano, and doesn’t actually know what CoC is, or Haki, it’s just called Ryou.

But we can see that Luffy can do the second step, but only unconsciously, because it’s CoC, which Luffy has and can use.

Then it’s not until here that Luffy actually pieces together what Hyo was trying to teach him

And that the second step is actually CoC, not CoA as he’s been assuming.

That’s the only thing that makes sense to me anyway.

So how it goes is

Step Zero- bog standard CoA

Step One- CoA Ryou. The thing that Hyogoro can teach, Armament Haki that has the sort of forcefield look. Also used by Sentomaru

Step Two- CoC Ryou. Hyogoro couldn’t teach it, because it was CoC, Luffy was using it accidentally, not really knowing what he was doing until the fight on the roof. Zoro also seems to have used it, again accidentally, when he scarred Kaido.

Post automatically merged: Jul 18, 2021

That’s what I think, anyway, it’s still pretty messy

This actually makes perfect sense

Garp the Fist · Jul 18, 2021

Charlotte Horchata said:

The only especially relevant person there is Zoro, Kid and Killer don’t have a clue what is going on and Law doesn’t comment either way.

All Zoro says is this

Which really only tells us one thing- that off-screen Luffy told Zoro he learned a form of Haki from an old man that he planned to use on Kaido. We don‘t know how much Luffy actually told him about it, whether he gave the full story (which doesn’t seem very Luffy-like to me, he‘s not one for long drawn out stories and explanations) or just said “I’ve learned some Haki from old man Hyo that will defintely let me beat Kaido!”

I don‘t think Zoro seems especially shocked or anything, no jaggy speech bubble, no exclamation marks, doesn’t seem to be shouting. Not compared to Kid anyway. He’s got the little lines at the side to denote it’s caught his attention, but he’s taking it pretty calmly all things considered.

So “was that the Haki he learned from the old man in Wano?” could really mean… anything

-Zoro’s a bit surprised it actually worked
-Zoro didn’t realise it was the same thing as the breath technique he uses
-Zoro is wondering if he can do the same thing and hasn’t realised it’s the same technique he uses
-Zoro is wondering if Luffy did use the new Haki he learned or something else
-Oda is just using Zoro talking out loud to remind the readers that Luffy trained for this in Udon, since at that point it had been about a year and a half since the training had happened in real life.

I think it’s more likely to be the last option mixed in with Zoro realising that Luffy can use the breath technique

Questions & Mysteries What exactly is the difference between Advanced Coa and Advanced Coc

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